Chaaay AFC Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 6 minutes ago, Spike said: That would never happen. Messi has blacklisted Icardi, Dybala gets in Messi's way (like Tevez used to), Aguero is a serial underperformer, and Messi has never played well as a #10. The problem with Argentina isn't the forwards, it is the FFA, Lionel Messi's lockerroom control, and the manager having little control of anything.The midfield is shambles, and the defence is even worse, the solution isn't more forwards at all. Argentina has crab mentality, the coach, the FFA, and Messi all vying for control. I've spoken to several Argentinos ans that is just the culture that permeates from the society. Messi may be the best player of all time but he isn't a shining example of behaviour behind the scenes. In fact, I'd wager Ronaldo is easier to deal with. Didn't Sampaoli turn up for a training session only for it to have been moved by Messi as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 9 minutes ago, Spike said: That would never happen. Messi has blacklisted Icardi, Dybala gets in Messi's way (like Tevez used to), Aguero is a serial underperformer, and Messi has never played well as a #10. The problem with Argentina isn't the forwards, it is the FFA, Lionel Messi's lockerroom control, and the manager having little control of anything.The midfield is shambles, and the defence is even worse, the solution isn't more forwards at all. Argentina has crab mentality, the coach, the FFA, and Messi all vying for control. I've spoken to several Argentinos ans that is just the culture that permeates from the society. Messi may be the best player of all time but he isn't a shining example of behaviour behind the scenes. In fact, I'd wager Ronaldo is easier to deal with. Right. Any proof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eco Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, Cicero said: Right. Any proof? Icardi himself has mentioned that he isn't in Russia because he isn't in Messi's 'clan'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, Eco said: I am aware of Icardi being 'blacklisted', but still, this is what is wrong with Argentina, they aren't bringing their best players because Messi controls the team. Argentina have scored 1 goal combined against Iceland and Croatia, so I would suggest that they need more fire power. Dybala and Messi should learn to play together FFS. It's not like there aren't ways to works around the roles. Get them best players on the field, and let them perform. They don't need fire power, they need a midfield and defence. You can't have a cannon and expect it to shoot far if poor quality gunpowder is used. 'let them perform' is exactly Argentina's problem, they have no discipline nor tactics, because they all want to be the boss so they end up having no respect for the manager. That is why instead of rallying together ti get a good result they threw Sampaoli under the buss and in return Sampaoli told his assisstants to withhold all information on Nigeria from the players. Crab mentality. Messi will never let Dybala shine while he is in the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Just now, Eco said: Icardi himself has mentioned that he isn't in Russia because he isn't in Messi's 'clan'. It isn't just Messi. Mascherano, Romero, Aguero, Perez, Banerga, etc. All don't like Icardi for various reasons. Add the fact that Icardi has done fuck all for the national side when given the chance, I find it convenient he's blaming his exclusion on not being a part of Messi's group vs rather being just not good enough. And with the personality of an insecure teenager, I highly doubt Messi is capable of such things Spike is stating. Again, there is no proof that Messi has control over anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 7 minutes ago, Cicero said: Right. Any proof? You honestly think that Messi, whose anecdotes about his control at Barcelona run deep, doesn't have any influence on the Argie team? My word. I know you're a fanboy but the bloke even used his retirement as leverage for the NT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Personality of an insecure teenager 3 minutes ago, Cicero said: It isn't just Messi. Mascherano, Romero, Aguero, Perez, Banerga, etc. All don't like Icardi for various reasons. Add the fact that Icardi has done fuck all for the national side when given the chance, I find it convenient he's blaming his exclusion on not being a part of Messi's group vs rather being just not good enough. And with the personality of an insecure teenager, I highly doubt Messi is capable of such things Spike is stating. Again, there is no proof that Messi has control over anything. Oh geez, I wonder why he hasn't done well. Maybe he can ask Gourcuff how to succeed in a team that hates you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 15 minutes ago, Spike said: You honestly think that Messi, whose anecdotes about his control at Barcelona run deep, doesn't have any influence on the Argie team? My word. I know you're a fanboy but the bloke even used his retirement as leverage for the NT. 12 minutes ago, Spike said: Personality of an insecure teenager Oh geez, I wonder why he hasn't done well. Maybe he can ask Gourcuff how to succeed in a team that hates you. I'm sure after coming up short in 3 consectuive finals and dealing with the immense pressure that is playing for Argentina, you reckon his retirement statement wasn't just acting upon emotion? You know, something we are all guilty of time to time? Again, there literally is no proof to support your ridiculous accusations. Nothing more than assumptions and buying into the media bollocks. And Gourcuff failed because he's shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 So we already established that the Argentinos are a group of unprofessional players that will freeze out a player because of personal dislike, that will coup on a manager when things get tough, that Messi has from several anecdotes from various players quite substantial power at Barcelona, but since there is no 'proof'; they are all good boys that didn't do nothing despite the fact their is no evidence to support it the other way? Riiiiight, and Gourcuff was elite for several years. So when you make assumptions like 'I'm sure that...' it is okay but when I make assumptions based on anecdotes from other professionals it is 'baseless'. Or when you say 'insecure teenager' as if you know the fellow and his PR isn't maintained very carefully like any other professional athlete. Again, there literally is no proof to support those ridiculous accusations. Nothing more than assumptions; but it okay when it isn't Spikerino assuming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Oh, I forgot to mention taht El Confidencial article that states that Messinhas been known to bully young plyers like Tello. Love the player, not the man. Never meet your idols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 The same story that has been publicly labled 'firmly unconfirmed' . To which Tello himself denied any bad relationship towards Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, Cicero said: The same story that has been publicly labled 'firmly unconfirmed' . To which Tello himself denied any bad relationship towards Leo The only thing we've confirmed is that you're the type of guy to ask for soirces but never supply any yourself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Spike said: The only thing we've confirmed is that you're the type of guy to ask for soirces but never supply any yourself https://www.weloba.com/article/tello-denies-any-bad-relationship-of-messi-with-his-teammates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, Cicero said: https://www.weloba.com/article/tello-denies-any-bad-relationship-of-messi-with-his-teammates Oh come on dude. 'we love barca'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berserker Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 4 hours ago, SirBalon said: I’m hoping two members I passed a couple of podcasts the other say offer something here. I’ll do my bit after the Nigeria game. I didn’t pass @Berserker the podcasts because I want his opinion based on the fact he is native and lives in Argentina. What podcasts?, what are you talking about?, the rumours that you talked about yesterday?, you want my opinion on what?, us being in this position? Well first off, Sampaoli brought a very unbalanced team to the WC, plays the wrongs players and that non given penalty against Iceland made everything much harder as we needed to go all or nothing against Croatia, plus Karius possesed Caballero and we all know what happened after that. That's basically it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Berserker said: What podcasts?, what are you talking about?, the rumours that you talked about yesterday?, you want my opinion on what?, us being in this position? Well first off, Sampaoli brought a very unbalanced team to the WC, plays the wrongs players and that non given penalty against Iceland made everything much harder as we needed to go all or nothing against Croatia, plus Karius possesed Caballero and we all know what happened after that. That's basically it. The podcasts aren’t on rumours mate. They’re measured opinions from some Argentinian journalists and the other one is a great piece with Valdano. In both situations they say that there’s been massive overreaction. Then they go onto giving their opinions on what’s wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berserker Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 1 minute ago, SirBalon said: The podcasts aren’t on rumours mate. They’re measured opinions from some Argentinian journalists and the other one is a great piece with Valdano. In both situations they say that there’s been massive overreaction. Then they go onto giving their opinions on what’s wrong. Many factors lead to this situation like i said above, but we still have a chance, let's just hope we fully take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoRoss Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 All this 'the best players aren't playing' misses the fact that it simply doesn't work like that. You aren't just collecting talent, you have to actually form a functional team. Otherwise you're just Garth Crooks. Throwing out Dybala, Aguero, Higuain, Messi, Icardi etc. Doesn't just work because they are good players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Just now, ScoRoss said: All this 'the best players aren't playing' misses the fact that it simply doesn't work like that. You aren't just collecting talent, you have to actually form a functional team. Otherwise you're just Garth Crooks. Throwing out Dybala, Aguero, Higuain, Messi, Icardi etc. Doesn't just work because they are good players. It's the midfield people are complaing about. Lo Celso not playing in particular who is easily Argentina's best central midfielder. Add Pavon and Armani. Two players who should have started last game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoRoss Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Before picking any players, they need to have a coach who can identify a way he'd like his team to play and build his team in that image. Playing players who are comfortable in those roles and not playing two full backs in a back three... And finally, you cannot allow any players to 'have a break' when defending. The team isn't good enough to allow for it. Especially when already having numerical disadvantage in the centre of midfield against players who don't concede possession easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ Posted June 25, 2018 Subscriber Share Posted June 25, 2018 I reckon this is one of those situations where they'll become loads better without Messi because they're not shoehorning a team in around one player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 1 minute ago, RandoEFC said: I reckon this is one of those situations where they'll become loads better without Messi because they're not shoehorning a team in around one player. Even though they lost every game in qualifiers without him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ Posted June 25, 2018 Subscriber Share Posted June 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Cicero said: Even though they lost every game in qualifiers without him? Yeah they'd have been loads better staying at home on this showing. Unlike most on here, I will admit I'm basing that on nothing more than gut feeling and next to no factual evidence (it is the internet after all), and I won't make things up to carry on my side of the debate so if you have facts to support your argument against my wild speculation, enjoy the W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, RandoEFC said: Yeah they'd have been loads better staying at home on this showing. Unlike most on here, I will admit I'm basing that on nothing more than gut feeling and next to no factual evidence (it is the internet after all), and I won't make things up to carry on my side of the debate so if you have facts to support your argument against my wild speculation, enjoy the W. Just an interesting speculation given this Argentina team have looked genuinely appalling without Messi during qualifiers. It seems they need a good transitional period more than anything. Under Sabella, Argentina were quite the force. Seems like they never really transitioned properly after him, even with the Copa America final appearances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Artful Dodger Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 To be fair, Argentina have only looked a shambles fairly recently. Throughout the past 15 years they've been competitive but fallen short at the final hurdle, in cup football losing one game at the end is so easy, I think it's harsh to judge them them of having been 'failures'. They were at their best when they played defensively and conservatively, people see the attacking names and think they should play have them firing like Liverpool's front 3 did this season. Fact is playing like that mostly results in chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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