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English Football's retrograde direction

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When England played Germany last week, something stuck out that has become all too familiar, England fans chanting ... and I'm not going to dress this up ... absolute shite. It's quite embarrassing to witness, not being as invested in England as most of you here I may view it quite differently to you.

Singing "Two world wars and one world cup" and "10 German Bombers" is tediously outdated. Just bantz right? No, it isn't banter. It's embarrassing. Whilst the Germans weren't exactly offended by it, it's time to grow up and let go of the past. Only 10 years ago England fans were held in high regard for their behaviour and conduct. Yet in recent times, the degenerate attitudes and behaviours have returned. 

I worry for some England fans in Russia, particularly the ones going out there for a fight. Because travelling England fans have a responsibility to each other how they conduct themselves. Going abroad and acting like a cock and potentially endangering others shouldn't be tolerated. English football is better than this. 

 

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I've gone on about this and other stuff regarding these issues.  I was one of the most outspoken where the European Championships in France were in question while at TFF and yet some refused to just say that this is a negative issue regarding social behaviour.  It's degenerative and puts England in a bad way considering what other things are then seen in some of Europe's coastal resorts in terms of similar behaviour.

I genuinely feel it's absolutely embarrassing too.

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That's the thing, they're not better than this. 'The Brit Abroad' England fan, of which there are many, are outdated, mindless buffoons who think things are "banter" when in actual fact it's embarrassing for both normal English football fans and English people who travel abroad. 

The funny thing is, the rest of the home nations, who were part of "our" side during the wars have played Germany in recent years in various competitons and the Wars never get brought up by their fans as a chant, yet our degenerates think this is acceptable and funny. 

I think part of the many reasons I went off the England national team is the fans. If you were to travel and watch them abroad, you're getting tarred with that brush straight away and I personally don't want anything to do with this sort of group. 

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3 hours ago, SirBalon said:

I've gone on about this and other stuff regarding these issues.  I was one of the most outspoken where the European Championships in France were in question while at TFF and yet some refused to just say that this is a negative issue regarding social behaviour.  It's degenerative and puts England in a bad way considering what other things are then seen in some of Europe's coastal resorts in terms of similar behaviour.

I genuinely feel it's absolutely embarrassing too.

You were chatting shit, actual video footage showing Russian fans clearly attacking English fans completely unprovoked. French bar owners confirming that this happened also. Even the Brentford online fanzine Beesotted went over, the least violent, "typically English" football fans there and they reported the same both through video footage and their own accounts.

I went to Lille to watch England v Wales in the fanzone, there were no Russians there at all and guess what? There was no violence. No starting on the French and fighting the police, no starting fights with the Welsh.

You have a habit of sensationalising things and you done it massively throughout the Euros.

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I do think England fans are more provocative than violent, although if someone starts on them then they won't back down either.

I don't think what England fans sing helps but I don't get where this outrage has come from from Germany last week. Why did everyone all of a sudden decide they were horrified by it? It's been going on for years. I'm not sure why last week caused so much more of a stir.

Some utter nonsense in the media as well. Saw plenty automatically blaming England fans in the Euros (despite Russia's fans even admitting they had trained for it) and even saw them last week saying that playing football in Dortmund square with some local migrants was "giving off the wrong image". Pathetic really. I actually think the media want England to turn into a gentrified bunch of bores who take ipads and selfie sticks to games. I'm definitely more embarrassed by our home support than away.

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I thought it was funny those singing bullshit like "We're England and Wales, fuck off Russia" getting suplexed 5 minutes later. 

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This is what I mean... No matter what, the "Mea Culpa" will never emerge and it's always someone else's fault or things are taken way out of context and seriousness.

It's curious that it's the same set of fans that always seem to have the same old problems.  I don't see fans going abroad to tournament with problems at home like in countries similar to Brazil, Argentina, Netherlands, Spain or Belgium.  They "don't get targeted" because they've gone there for the festival of football and not to get pissed beyond recognition like alcohol is about to be banned forever.  I'm not entertaining the same old rhetoric!

I've lived through the 80s hooligan problems in this country and I remember all the destructive social issues that existed amongst retarded knuckle draggers.  The Russians targeted the English because they KNEW they would respond to it.

Put it this way...  In the other forum (TFF) when we debated all of this we had some even saying that the French police and media were ungrateful after what England (Britain) had "done for them in the war"

Even the alcohol aspect isn't a good excuse to be honest!  The Dutch and Germans drink a lot and don't get into trouble at international tournaments...  At least they're not infamous for it.  Oh....  The Scottish!  They get smashed at international tournaments and the Scottish fans are loved abroad.

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I'd say be thankful we don't have anything more extreme than mindlessness. Some of the conduct in modern football has been disgusting in recent years.

Throwing bananas at black players? Disgraceful.

Vandalising the stadia of the opposition? Disrespectful.

Chanting irrelevant remarks for ninety minutes at others? Lack of imagination and passion.

Edited by Cure
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1 minute ago, Cure said:

They might not be putting across a great image to other national teams but many probably realise rather quickly that not all of the English are like that. Forty thousand people shouting pathetic remarks at the opposition just casts them in a bad light. If they truly believed we were all like that we wouldn't attract a plethora of foreign talent to our country's teams.

Of course not all English are like that!  Infact the majority aren't like that and are sometimes caught up in the stupidity of others which is even worse to be honest.  I've never said that it's every English football fan that acts like this mate.  Just that THERE IS A PROBLEM and as with many problems, you can only address them once you admit to yourself that the issue exists and work from there.

I remember Harvey explaining very well in the other place that these things are practically impossible to solve because of certain social aspects that won't be eradicated.

All I'm saying is that it's wrong to place the blame on others because the others target those that will be easy to coax into a very predictable result.

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England fans went to France for the football, the alcohol, the women, the atmosphere, to have a laugh.

Russian fans have openly admitted they went to France to attack the English.

End of discussion really.

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It always seems to involve the English

 

When Russian fans openly admitted they went all out to attack them, then yeah, of course it would involve them. Don't seem to remember running battles against Wales or Iceland though 🤔

 

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The problem with England away support is the loyalty system. It needs to be replaced with a lottery or half lottery tickets and half loyalty.

The loyalty system favours groups of young men on lads holidays. A few of those are fine, when it becomes 1000, 2000 in the same place it becomes the dominant culture and behaviour.

I always cringe when the camera turns to the England away fans because their general appearance is that of the knuckle draggers. 

The solution is simple, they need to be broken up a bit because they are feeding off of each other.

 

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31 minutes ago, Aaroncpfc said:

England fans went to France for the football, the alcohol, the women, the atmosphere, to have a laugh.

Russian fans have openly admitted they went to France to attack the English.

End of discussion really.

This has no relevance and is also untrue. Well, the bit about paintings England fans out as some peace loving family group that was enjoying the culture and history of France. There were plenty who went for a fight. They got it and they got a battering. Which was very funny. 

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I recall the friendly against Italy was a turning point, whilst every nation has its undesirable element, it should be seen as something of a shame that England has allowed this minority to stain a rebuilt reputation 

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10 minutes ago, Smiley Culture said:

They got it and they got a battering. Which was very funny.

Absolutely ridiculous comment.

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2 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Absolutely ridiculous comment.

I'm sorry that I found it very funny that degenerate, knuckle dragging English louts got a hiding from the Russians. 

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14 minutes ago, Smiley Culture said:

This has no relevance and is also untrue. Well, the bit about paintings England fans out as some peace loving family group that was enjoying the culture and history of France. There were plenty who went for a fight. They got it and they got a battering. Which was very funny. 

As seen in the week before. There was a minority that can't  handle there drink, get desensitised in a large group, and think it's funny mainly to smash bottles and throw chairs. It wouldn't surprise  if these are people already on passport bans but don't hand there passports in and take the charge when they get back. I wouldn't put us in the same category as Russian fans at all.

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1 minute ago, Smiley Culture said:

I'm sorry that I found it very funny that degenerate, knuckle dragging English louts got a hiding from the Russians. 

Regardless of what you think of them as individuals we're lucky nobody got killed.

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2 minutes ago, Aaroncpfc said:

As seen in the week before. There was a minority that can't  handle there drink, get desensitised in a large group, and think it's funny mainly to smash bottles and throw chairs. It wouldn't surprise  if these are people already on passport bans but don't hand there passports in and take the charge when they get back. I wouldn't put us in the same category as Russian fans at all.

There were numbers of English fans looking for fights in France, however, unlike the Russians they didn't 'train' for such an event. To paint us out as innocent is totally wrong as that really isn't the case. 

We were lucky none were killed. What about all the people over the years attacked by the English? It's a weird mentality we have that people are offended and distraught when it happens to us but it's swept under the carpet if it's the other way round. 

I was in Lille for the Russia v Slovakia game and the day before, there was an ever increasing group of English, influenced by drink and misplaced bravery, who were willing the Russians on and singing songs, "we're coming for you" being one, they soon shat their pants when the Russians come to town but they were in no way absolvent of blame. 

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1 hour ago, Aaroncpfc said:

England fans went to France for the football, the alcohol, the women, the atmosphere, to have a laugh.

Russian fans have openly admitted they went to France to attack the English.

End of discussion really.

Here in the west we may have hooligans and chants but nothing like resorting to violence or wanting to pick fights. Russia is obviously different and there are some possible reasons for their tolerance towards such behaviours.

The Russian people have always been more hostile to the west. Unlike over here where people were advancing and becoming more accepting Russia was limited to being a strictly class-based system. The wealthy aristocrats and political figureheads over the bourgeois and below them the peasants and workers. Go back fifty years and this was still the case. This actually shaped the Russian behaivour and their attitude towards others. During the period of increased censorship and oppression the people were shielded from change. The majority of the population were encouraged to accept segregation and the white bourgeoisie were held as the future of Russia. Much of the population was forced to resort to violence to throw the government into action which rarely worked and so they suffered more and more. To try and incorporate our values or show acceptance of other nations got millions sent to Stalin's gulag labour camps in Siberia. Some time after the war the west pushed Russian soldiers back into their motherland where they were accused of being traitors and shot on the spot. The west tried to help Russia but often fell flat for whatever reason and when the Cold War ended and Gorbachev stepped down it more-or-less continued. Look at Putin. The rest of the world looks on as Russia continue to threaten with nuclear weapons, punish its people and attack anything foreign to them. Their hostility is entrenched in their society and has been for a long time. Even other nations placed under Russia's control until gaining independence such as Romania can see violence and seem distant to the best of us. They were held to similar terms.

Whilst this doesn't show exactly why there's a divide in their football fans and us it hopefully offers some insight into their past and how it could have had an impact. In no way am I trying to defend their backwards attitude. I think it's wrong. Hurling abuse and threatening is by no means acceptable. To them it seems more justified.

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7 minutes ago, Smiley Culture said:

There were numbers of English fans looking for fights in France, however, unlike the Russians they didn't 'train' for such an event. To paint us out as innocent is totally wrong as that really isn't the case. 

We were lucky none were killed. What about all the people over the years attacked by the English? It's a weird mentality we have that people are offended and distraught when it happens to us but it's swept under the carpet if it's the other way round. 

I was in Lille for the Russia v Slovakia game and the day before, there was an ever increasing group of English, influenced by drink and misplaced bravery, who were willing the Russians on and singing songs, "we're coming for you" being one, they soon shat their pants when the Russians come to town but they were in no way absolvent of blame. 

It was a planned attack. Nobody expected a country to come to France to attack in groups and know beforehand which streets they were going to take to attack people. Any country in that circumstance the victim of such an assault would be painted as the victim. The example you listed about English fans shows a minority are not absolvent from blame but to paint us in a brush on par with some other countries is wrong.l

As for the 'weird mentality' we have it's as if you've completely forgotten about all the media in this country condemning our behaviour in Euro 2000, the fights after Euro 96, and the racist Chelsea fans on the tube in Paris. That's only just some examples.

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7 minutes ago, Cure said:

Here in the west we may have hooligans and chants but nothing like resorting to violence or wanting to pick fights. Russia is obviously different and there are some possible reasons for their tolerance towards such behaviours. The Russian people have always been more hostile to the west. Unlike over here where people were advancing and becoming more accepting Russia was limited to being a strictly class-based system. The wealthy aristocrats and political figureheads over the bourgeois and below them the peasants and workers. Go back fifty years and this was still the case. This actually shaped the Russian behaivour and their attitude towards others. During the period of increased censorship and oppression the people were shielded from change. The majority of the population were encouraged to accept segregation and the white bourgeoisie were held as the future of Russia. Much of the population was forced to resort to violence to throw the government into action which rarely worked and so they suffered more and more. To try and incorporate our values or show acceptance of other nations got millions sent to Stalin's gulag labour camps in Siberia. Some time after the war the west pushed Russian soldiers back into their motherland where they were accused of being traitors and shot on the spot. The west tried to help Russia but often fell flat for whatever reason and when the Cold War ended and Gorbachev stepped down it more-or-less continued. Look at Putin. The rest of the world looks on as Russia continue to threaten with nuclear weapons, punish its people and attack anything foreign to them. Their hostility is entrenched in their society and has been for a long time. Even other nations placed under Russia's control until gaining independence such as Romania can see violence and seem distant to the best of us. They were held to similar terms.

Whilst this doesn't show exactly why there's a divide in their football fans and us it hopefully offers some insight into their past and how it could have had an impact. In no way am I trying to defend their backwards attitude. I think it's wrong. But it's the only thing some of them knew.

The stereotype of the russian man has definitely changed under Putin. There was a BBC documentary which highlighted the current generation is almost embarrassed by the previous stereotype of drinking vodka and fighting in pubs and now they take pride in being the toughest they can be through mixed martial arts.

The irony is this image has almost backfired on Putin as he seems to be on a mission to make sure the World Cup paints a good picture of his Russia and the Police are trying to crack down on football related violence.

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1 hour ago, Aaroncpfc said:

The stereotype of the russian man has definitely changed under Putin. There was a BBC documentary which highlighted the current generation is almost embarrassed by the previous stereotype of drinking vodka and fighting in pubs and now they take pride in being the toughest they can be through mixed martial arts.

The irony is this image has almost backfired on Putin as he seems to be on a mission to make sure the World Cup paints a good picture of his Russia and the Police are trying to crack down on football related violence.

It would all come down to the fans in attendance. We've seen how they can act in other countries and how their leagues can harbour racism amongst fans. Not too sure how it would work.

Edited by Cure

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2 hours ago, Aaroncpfc said:

England fans went to France for the football, the alcohol, the women, the atmosphere, to have a laugh.

Russian fans have openly admitted they went to France to attack the English.

End of discussion really.

This is the "medulla oblongata" that such fans like yourself come out with.

I didn't see the bloody North Koreans trying to fight everyone at the Euro's and they even have nukes.

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I can't speak in generalities, but personally if I would see England fans in another country, I would stay clear.

I remember getting stuck with this old skinhead bastard when I was sitting in a bar in Barcelona quietly watching the England-Russia match last year and he overheard my Scottish accent (we were sitting at pretty much adjacent tables). 

Nothing really came of it. Me and my pal left early - probably for the best, since he was getting more aggressive in his comments to us (it went from kinda the usual teasing to a bit more sinister as the match lingered at 1-0) and I wonder how he would have reacted if we were there when Russia equalised. 

 

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Tuesday - Dortmund fans taking in Monaco fans for the night and Monaco fans singing 'Dortmund, Dortmund' in support of Marc Bartra and Borussia Dortmund. 

Wednesday - Leicester fans sing 'Ten German Bombers' and 'Gibraltar is ours' in Madrid. 

English fans are window licking degenerates. 

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Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will raise my blood pressure.

WUMing chants are a substitute for violence and a by product of not actually dealing with the causes of hooliganism but just blocking the violence and leaving it at that. Often the metods used to do that reinforces the current culture, such as segregation.

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You say that, til you play Portugal and they sing about the Westminster killings, then all of a sudden it's "Disgraceful Portuguese, completely classless ect" Then back to sticks and stones when singing 10 german bombers

 

English thugs causing trouble in spain, get busted up by the cops "fun loving lads getting brutalized unfairly"

Get attacked by russian thugs and it's "they shouldn't be allowed in the country"

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That post is blinded by stereotyping and cognitive short cuts so it is impossible to have any discussion.

Do you seriously think I don't believe anyone English commits any actual law breaking crimes? 

The German bombers chant is immoral and punishment is correct. The Gibraltar chant isn't even remotely immoral.

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