SirBalon Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, nudge said: It really depends on what your morals are though. If one does not find it immoral to kill an animal for food, then doing it (or "paying" for getting it done) does not conflict with that individual's morality. That depends if they are willing to kill the animal to eat and the reasons why you wouldn’t kill to eat it. If it’s because you’re a lazy git and rather pay but would kill it without remorse then without a doubt it’s not hypocritical. If on the otherhand you won’t kill the animal because of the guilt trip you would suffer but yet you enjoy eating it and will pay for someone else to kill it for you... then how anyone can’t see the hypocrisy in that it’s beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 22 minutes ago, nudge said: It really depends on what your morals are though. If one does not find it immoral to kill an animal for food, then doing it (or "paying" for getting it done) does not conflict with that individual's morality. It's a big logical fallacy isn't it. If that person believes animals hold no moral value, then they should also be OK with the logic of a species higher in the food chain using them as a source of food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber nudge+ Posted October 17, 2018 Subscriber Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 minute ago, SirBalon said: That depends if they are willing to kill the animal to eat and the reasons why you wouldn’t kill to eat it. If it’s because you’re a lazy git and rather pay but would kill it without remorse then without a doubt it’s not hypocritical. If on the otherhand you won’t kill the animal because of the guilt trip you would suffer but yet enou eating it and will pay for someone else to kill it for you... then how anyone can’t see the hypocrisy in that it’s beyond me. True - but I think the claim that me slashing a pig's throat myself is akin to me eating bacon is a bit extreme... Just like there is a fine line between not finding it morally unacceptable to kill animals for food and having absolutely no qualms with it. I'm against hurting and taking any sentient life unnecessarily, doing it for food just doesn't fall into that category for me though. Do I feel sorry for the animal getting slaughtered? Yes, absolutely. But I see it as a natural thing and a necessity at the same time. I spent summers in the countryside growing up, and saw a lot of animals getting slaughtered (pigs, poultry, veal, etc.) after they've been raised by my grandma for a long time. Nobody got any pleasure from doing it, but it's just a part of life and neither I nor anyone else ever felt any remorse eating the meat afterwards. My only real issue is the way the killing is done. And with the farming industry; but that's a different topic I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber nudge+ Posted October 17, 2018 Subscriber Share Posted October 17, 2018 13 minutes ago, Cicero said: It's a big logical fallacy isn't it. If that person believes animals hold no moral value, then they should also be OK with the logic of a species higher in the food chain using them as a source of food. You make an assumption here that such person thinks that animals "hold no moral value" though; while there might be completely different reasoning at play there. As for the second part of your post, I would be perfectly fine knowing that I'm the source of food for dinosaurs if they were still around Mind I'd still try to make sure I don't end up being someone's breakfast; but I'm absolutely fine with the logic behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, nudge said: True - but I think the claim that me slashing a pig's throat myself is akin to me eating bacon is a bit extreme... Just like there is a fine line between not finding it morally unacceptable to kill animals for food and having absolutely no qualms with it. I'm against hurting and taking any sentient life unnecessarily, doing it for food just doesn't fall into that category for me though. Do I feel sorry for the animal getting slaughtered? Yes, absolutely. But I see it as a natural thing and a necessity at the same time. I spent summers in the countryside growing up, and saw a lot of animals getting slaughtered (pigs, poultry, veal, etc.) after they've been raised by my grandma for a long time. Nobody got any pleasure from doing it, but it's just a part of life and neither I nor anyone else ever felt any remorse eating the meat afterwards. My only real issue is the way the killing is done. And with the farming industry; but that's a different topic I guess. I didn’t grow up there but every summer I would go on holiday to Galicia (nothwestern Spain) with my parents. Part of that holiday was spent staying at my grandparents house up in the mountains where they had all sorts of animals, grew their own vegetables and even grew their own wheat and made their own bread in stone ovens. So I saw slaughtering of animals too (pigs being the worst because of the screaming they would let out)... I totally understand the whole process and have witnessed it from an early age. I haven’t got an issue with certain animals being bred for pur consumption but still I couldn’t take an animal’s life myself if it were for me to have to eat something I love which is meat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 51 minutes ago, nudge said: You make an assumption here that such person thinks that animals "hold no moral value" though; while there might be completely different reasoning at play there. What other reasons are there? If they do not find killing animals immoral, that means they view these animals with having no moral value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber nudge+ Posted October 17, 2018 Subscriber Share Posted October 17, 2018 34 minutes ago, SirBalon said: I didn’t grow up there but every summer I would go on holiday to Galicia (nothwestern Spain) with my parents. Part of that holiday was spent staying at my grandparents house up in the mountains where they had all sorts of animals, grew their own vegetables and even grew their own wheat and made their own bread in stone ovens. So I saw slaughtering of animals too (pigs being the worst because of the screaming they would let out)... I totally understand the whole process and have witnessed it from an early age. I haven’t got an issue with certain animals being bred for pur consumption but still I couldn’t take an animal’s life myself if it were for me to have to eat something I love which is meat. It's a hypothetical scenario as we live in a society where we have people specialized and willing to do jobs that are considered "undesirable" by most; slaughtering animals is one of them. So sure, I'd rather have someone to do it; no question about it. However - while I surely wouldn't kill a cow because I simply wanted a hamburger or a steak for a one-off dinner, I would do it and use its meat to sustain myself and my family for well over the year if I had to and if I actually knew how to + had the tools to ensure as painless death as possible + would know how to properly butcher it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 18 minutes ago, nudge said: It's a hypothetical scenario as we live in a society where we have people specialized and willing to do jobs that are considered "undesirable" by most; slaughtering animals is one of them. So sure, I'd rather have someone to do it; no question about it. However - while I surely wouldn't kill a cow because I simply wanted a hamburger or a steak for a one-off dinner, I would do it and use its meat to sustain myself and my family for well over the year if I had to and if I actually knew how to + had the tools to ensure as painless death as possible + would know how to properly butcher it. Obviously if push comes to shove and my life, more importantly my family’s life came down to it because of that meat, then I’d kill it. We’re now going onto a survival issue here which isn’t the simple outlook on whether or not for someone living in a society which includes having these things done for you i.e going down to your local butcher to buy a piece of meat but within that form of living you feel you could easily just eat vegetables and not kill an animal for its meat. In other words if they now say to me in my present state that I have to kill an animal if I want its meat, then I wouldn’t do it because my life is in no danger and I can easily survive as a vegan... I wouldn’t be too happy with that at all but my level of happiness doesnt make me have to resort to taking an animal’s life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber nudge+ Posted October 17, 2018 Subscriber Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Cicero said: What other reasons are there? If they do not find it immoral, that means they view these animals of having no moral value? Quite the contrary. I find nature and animals fascinating (and even prefer them to people to a certain degree ), respect every living thing and find killing animals or making them suffer without a reason absolutely abhorrent. However, I see killing animals for survival or sustenance and other products they provide as a necessity and part of the natural world thus not immoral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Judging men and women by different standards in some areas. Sleaze/slut determinations for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber nudge+ Posted October 17, 2018 Subscriber Share Posted October 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, SirBalon said: Obviously if push comes to shove and my life, more importantly my family’s life came down to it because of that meat, then I’d kill it. We’re now going onto a survival issue here which isn’t the simple outlook on whether or not for someone living in a society which includes having these things done for you i.e going down to you local butcher to buy a piece of meat but within that form of living you feel you could easily just eat vegetables and not kill an animal for its meat. In other words if they now say to me in my present state that I have to kill an animal if I want its meat, then I wouldn’t do it because my life is in no danger and I can easily survive as a vegan... I wouldn’t be to happy with that at all but my level of happiness doesnt make me have to resort to taking an animal’s life. Might be the case in the modern western society with all the alternatives and supplements and whatnot, not so much for most people in the rest of the world though where meat and fish is still the easiest, most accessible and affordable option to meet their nutritional needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 minute ago, nudge said: However, I see killing animals for survival or sustenance and other products they provide as a necessity and part of the natural world thus not immoral. Except we don't need to kill animals for survival. They are a commodity. Because of this, needlessly killing creatures that are sentient for your own consumption either makes you a hypocrite or immoral. Unless you live in an area where plant based products aren't accessible or are scare, there isn't a reason to justify these needless killings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber nudge+ Posted October 17, 2018 Subscriber Share Posted October 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, Cicero said: Except we don't need to kill animals for survival. They are a commodity. Because of this, needlessly killing creatures that are sentient for your own consumption either makes you a hypocrite or immoral. Unless you live in an area where plant based products aren't accessible or are scare, there isn't a reason to justify these needless killings. Refer to my previous reply to SirBalon. Definitely manageable in the modern western society, definitely not the case where I grew up or where I am living now, unless you have a lot of time and a lot of money on your hands. And once again, morality is subjective. What's immoral to you might be completely fine for another individual or in a different culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Yes, Morals are personal and dependant on many things. A lot of things western people do every day would be deemed immoral in other cultures and societies. Killing an animal for food is not immoral to everyone. And it doesn’t make you a hypocrite or immoral. You are stating your opinion as fact, Cicero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, nudge said: And once again, morality is subjective. What's immoral to you might be completely fine for another individual or in a different culture. 1 minute ago, Marc said: Killing an animal for food is not immoral to everyone. And it doesn’t make you a hypocrite or immoral. You are stating your opinion as fact, Cicero. So hypothetically speaking, if I were to kill both of you because I find nothing wrong with it, it's then moral? Morality is subjective yes, however morality must be based on facts and reason. It can't be completely arbitrary or else someone can justify their atrocity by stating their morality is subjective. Just like my hypothetical. Humans and animals are sentient beings. They feel pain and have the desire to live. Animals have a moral status because they value life. Needlessly killing something that values life, is immoral. And if you disagree with that, then you should be fine if someone kills you because they think its morally subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber nudge+ Posted October 17, 2018 Subscriber Share Posted October 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, Cicero said: So hypothetically speaking, if I were to kill both of you because I find nothing wrong with it, it's then moral? Morality is subjective yes, however morality must be based on facts and reason. It can't be completely arbitrary or else someone can justify their atrocity by stating their morality is subjective. Just like my hypothetical. Humans and animals are sentient beings. They feel pain and have the desire to live. Animals have a moral status because they value life. Needlessly killing something that values life, is immoral. And if you disagree with that, then you should be fine if someone kills you because they think its morally subjective. Well that's the key word there isn't it?... It's good for you if you have enough options, resources and time and can spend hours marinating your tofu and drying your legumes to prepare your vegan dishes you eat five times a day to get your nutrients; not everyone does and the need to eat meat is very real for them. We're venturing into a completely pointless philosophical discussion here. Morality and ethics, right and wrong is a man-made concept that is mostly defined by the society we live in; it is not an absolute but an agreed-upon code of rules that govern our social interactions with each other - a social contract if you wish. Certain actions (such as killing other humans in your example) are seen as morally wrong by most normally functioning members of society because they pose danger to the survival and the existence of the society as a whole. And even then there's exceptions - killing of other humans in war is very much morally accepted and glorified even in a modern society. Now that's more hypocritical than anything else in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 @nudge has finished off with a very good point there and one many people fall into I would say (not all though, you have your humanists)... Not caring about humans killed in a case scenario of war and yet we all go do-lally when someone dies in a terrorist attack which for others (those committing it) it's a war scenario. That's big time hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toinho Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 6 hours ago, The Rebel CRS said: People who kill spiders are the biggest cunts. What's wrong with just catching them in a glass and putting them outside? My mate @nudge will agree. Used to try catch them and put them outside (daddy long legs in particular) but when they’re inches away from your balls in the shower they die. I suppose I’m hypocritical in that sense, I love animals but often kill spiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverted Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Logically I'm aware that spiders are useful and I even find them quite fascinating, but I'm too damn scared by them to catch one and carry it outside. Generally I just crush them with a tissue and throw them in the nearest bin, though I don't want to really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honey Honey Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 I've started using companies who I consider to be scum again such as Amazon, Boots and pretty much everyone on the high street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Artful Dodger Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 5 hours ago, Harvsky said: I've started using companies who I consider to be scum again such as Amazon, Boots and pretty much everyone on the high street. Sports direct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnivore Chris Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 17 hours ago, Toinho said: Used to try catch them and put them outside (daddy long legs in particular) but when they’re inches away from your balls in the shower they die. I suppose I’m hypocritical in that sense, I love animals but often kill spiders. You live in Australia though to be fair. The spiders there are on another level As mad as it sounds though, I don't find redbacks or black widows as being intimidating, they actually look class. Those huntsman, despite being harmless are far scarier. It's more about the size than what they can actually do to you. Spiders in England are nothing compared to some of the things that invade your tent if you ever go night fishing. Those larvae(I think they are Dragon Fly ones) are fucking hideous. You also get mosquitoes(especially down south, it was full of them), midges and horse flies, all of which bite and cause you grief. Spiders get rid of these for you and without spiders, imagine how many pesky flies there would actually be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted October 18, 2018 Author Share Posted October 18, 2018 I don't mind spiders just don't want them in my house. You know what are cool? Poodle Moths. I want one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 19 hours ago, Cicero said: Except we don't need to kill animals for survival. They are a commodity. Because of this, needlessly killing creatures that are sentient for your own consumption either makes you a hypocrite or immoral. Unless you live in an area where plant based products aren't accessible or are scare, there isn't a reason to justify these needless killings. Are you a vegetarian mate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 18 hours ago, SirBalon said: @nudge has finished off with a very good point there and one many people fall into I would say (not all though, you have your humanists)... Not caring about humans killed in a case scenario of war and yet we all go do-lally when someone dies in a terrorist attack which for others (those committing it) it's a war scenario. That's big time hypocrisy. Excellent point. What we call terrorists other people call freedom fighters. Its gorrilla warfare. If you don't have the resources to take in a country that is what you do. Don't think dor a second I'm justifying isis. But from their point of view they are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.