Other News & General Chat

[Beelzebub]

@IgnisExcubitor I will not counter these extreme persecution posts since

a) you are obviously very emotional about it

b) many times these are personal matters like land disputes, money matters and people use the Hindu vs Muslim card to settle them

c) you're defending Modi from Gujrat 2002 riots even when his role as a government official not being able to handle these riots is questionable enough while accusing Pakistan of systematic persecution of it's minorities even when none office holder In Pakistan has even been accused of promoting these communal riots that do occur.

d) you're quoting Naila Inayat as a reliable source she is like Masih Alnejad of Pakistan @Dr. Gonzo can tell you more on this while dismissing anyone critical of Modi as unreliable

Glad you didn't try to defend the exaggerated statement of 14% to 2% which clearly missed many ground facts. 

As for you do acknowledge that many poor people don't have these documents to prove that they are legal what if a Muslim even if he is living here for generations is unable to produce these documents what are the chances he will be deemed illegal immigrant from these countries you mentioned and be state less ? If it's uncertain and can't be judged until the bill is passed then how can you make such Muslims feel safe when such uncertainty is looming over them ?

[IgnisExcubitor]

@Azeem

The persecution could be about land deals or houses. Still doesn't make it okay to abduct women and minor girls, rape and convert them, simply because they are non-Muslims. 

This discrimination extends to even groups like Ahemadiyyas (who aren't Muslim enough for you guys) by making their discrimination legal. They can't even recite the Quran. How fucked up is that. 

I have not defended Modi's or any government inaction during riots. For Gujrat or now. I have countered the charge of participation or pogram, which they weren't. He didn't cause it or help it, as many claim. Hewent through a legal battle that lasted for more than a decade and was acquited everytime in all levels of courts and commissions. These cases happened under the former opposition rule, who were hellbent on punishing him. What happened in Gujarat was riots from both sides, after a train filled with Hindu pilgrims was burned by a Muslim mob, killing 56 men, women and children.

 

As for Pakistan officials, there are similar or worse roles that I can too speak of several incidents. Or even the Razakars your army unleashed in East Pakistan (current day Bangladesh) or the demographic changes implemented in POK or cross border terrorism unleashed on us. We all know how your lot treat (or rather protect) scums like Hafeez Saeed.

I don't know who Masih Alnejad is and you can choose to ignore Inayat, but will you also deny the existence of all those minor girls who are being abducted, raped, converted to Islam and then married off to Muslim men? Girls as young as 10 or 11. Or even Mia Mithu, the scum who terrorises Hindu and Christian families in Sindh, aids forced conversions and enjoys full protection from the law. He is supposed to be a elected member in National Assembly (so much for no officials). In case you don't know him, here he is with your Prime Minister.

 

By the way, this is just the latest list of new cases.

 

I didn't exaggerated any statements regarding population decline. Go back I have said 14% in 1947. My only mistake was not adding West and East Pakistan. It was all Pakistan in 1947. There has been a decline in both those regions, while in India the Muslim population has doubled.

As for the last bit, why do you think only poor Muslims will suffer?

Poor person irrespective of any religion without any documents might suffer through NRC. But again, for HUNDREDTH time, NRC hasn't been drafted yet. When it will be drafted these things will be discussed at length in the Parliament. These things will be considered, including having provisions to take court's help if a person is deemed illegal. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by IgnisExcubitor

[Beelzebub]

@IgnisExcubitor

I didn't say it's ok if it happens to happen about land disputes etc i said that sometimes Muslims and Hindus in Sindh when have some personal problems and they try to settle it and it get dragged as religious issue when the intentions are not religious, like there are tons of feudal problems within Muslims as well in Sindh and Punjab

Ahmediya are like Moroms among Muslims you should read about Moromons, they beliefs are not accepted among all Muslim sects much like how Mormons are rejected as not Christians by Christian communities. They are not allowed to publish their Quran outside of their communities but are free to do anything within their places of worship. Yes they have faced persecution but they that doesn't paints all of the picture. 

You're bringing up something that happened some 50 years ago in Bangladesh with the 1971 war where plenty of people were killed by Muqti Bahani and other Bengali nationalist groups backed by India so I'm not gonna dive into that, the thought of presenting the idea that ' my community ' killed less than your community is disgusting.

Please if you can present some non Indian sources for the demographic changes in Pakistani side of the Kashmir ? cause the demographics of Gilgit Baltistan and POK are well documented

Hafeez Saeed is in jail right now but yes i accept even though like you giving a free pass to Modi that ' Indian ' courts found him innocent ( we all know how good the judiciary system is in this part of the world ) Pakistani courts found him innocent too but still he should be in jail.

Yes there are issues in Sindh but they way you are trying act like there are organized ' pogroms ' ethnic cleansing of Hindus in Pakistan posting some random facebook group is far from truth. I can post Pakistani Hindu's twitter accounts many of them member of parliaments and journalists who present a far more more balanced approach to this. And that picture is from 2015 he faced criticism for that right fully so and that guy is not supposed to be a member of the parliament he has been abandoned by political parties for years now. 

That 14% in 1947 was 12% in East Pakistan and 2% in West Pakistan the 2% in the current day Pakistan has increased not deceased i provided two links for that. 

Let's just say a Hindu, Christian etc is unable to produce the required documents but under the CAA he will be able to apply for citizenship as a persecuted minority from Pakistan, Bangladesh etc because that's where they will be deemed from but if a Muslim isn't able to produce the required documents can he also apply for citizenship ? because once declared an illegal immigrant CAA is certainly not the way for them to access citizenship in.

I'll say it again until NRC is drafted or debated the uncertainty will create panic naturally.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Azeem

[IgnisExcubitor]

@Azeem

It's not just random Facebook pages or journalists you don't like, the point is not them. Point is the victims. I presented a list of names of minor girls. And that's just from 2019. So many.

The matter for conflict can be anything. That doesn't give you the right to systematically pick up non-Muslim girls. I can even post the video of one your own talk shows where they discussed this issue. A Pakistani citizen describes how Hindu and Christian girls are sold for as cheap as 50 bucks, simply because they are non-Muslims.

The other core issue is law and judiciary. Atrocities happen everywhere. Even here in India. But for a court to deem marriage of a 12-14 year old child to her rapist as legal because she had her periods is the glaring issue. That happens nowhere in the world or civilised societies. 

If you can't see any problem in that, then you won't understand why non-Muslims from Pakistan flock into India by the thousands every few months seeking protection. Imran Khan may have disowned Miya Mithu but he still holds a great deal of power in Sindh. Imran once upon a time even courted the Taliban and said his famous Good Terrorist - Bad Terrorist line, so him publically disowning Mithu now is just convenience.

As for Hafeez Saeed. He keeps going to prison when FATF hearing comes up and steps out thereafter. It's understandable. You guys don't want to go into black list of FATF, so we see this charade.

Now for the Ahmeddiyas. It's disturbing how you casually say that they cannot print their Quran outside their communities. Therein lies the problem, when you consider your own citizen inferior. I am pretty certain Mormons don't get punished by law in US for propagating or practising their religion. We have our own problems with caste, and at times discrimination but I have never seen the law or the judiciary asking lower caste people to not practice or publish their stuff. Your country passed a constitutional law declaring Ahemadiyyas as non-Muslims in the 70s and they officially can't call themselves Muslims. Don't compare them to Mormons. No US government will do that to Mormons.

Please, don't compare Mukti Bahini (freedom fighters) with Razakars. That's like comparing revolutionaries like Bhagat Singh and Bose with the British East India Company. Violence of Razakars has been well documented. All one has to do is Google about them. Some of them still continue to be punished by the current Bangladeshi government. Razakars killed 300,000 to 3,000,000 people and raped 200,000–400,000 Bangladeshi women under the orders from Pakistani army. Their high profile trials lasted till 2013.

For demographic changes in POK , if you need neutral sources then I would name Senge Serin (Director of Institute of Gilgit Baltistan Studies in US) and Professor C Christine Fair, a professor in Georgetown University and a defence and South East Asia expert. Incidentally Professor Fair is also highly critical of Indian governments and Indian Army.

Lastly, you still don't understand the CAA and NRC laws.

CAA speeds up the citizenship process of Non-Muslims fleeing from Pakistan, Afghanistan and Bangladesh. 

It has nothing to do with other refugees. Muslims from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan or anywhere else and  Non-Muslims from other countries can still apply for citizenship and get it. 

NRC is a national registry for Indian citizens. Several countries in the world have them. But our NRC hasn't even been drafted yet. It will be drafted and then debated. To be scared of that or protest or worse riot against a nonexisting law is stupid at best.

Edited February 29, 2020 by IgnisExcubitor

[Beelzebub]

@IgnisExcubitor

Again I'm not endorsing forced conversions or justifying them in any condition I'm just pointing out that just like India where you say that Muslims aren't target of pogroms rather these are two sided riors, the incidents with Hindu girls aren't community backed and not always start as one sided religious persecution and lots of new cases each year according to you isn't true at all. Yes there are flaws in judiciary which fail to provide justice to genuine cases but your earlier posts which hint that there is systematic ethnic cleansing in Pakistani 14% to 2% i.e is simply emotional based and false

Thousands of flocks ? There are many nomads who settled in Rajasthan, years after partition just looking for a settlement apart from those there are some who settled in India but thousands each year !

As for Imran Khan I'm sure your seeing Taliban America negotiations and when did he associate himself with him ? He took a picture that's why ? India has a chief minister who called for taking Muslim women out of graves and raping them and if he hasn't associated himself with right wing ideology then a picture certainly isn't going to. 

Ahmediya are not allowed to present themselves as Muslims around the Muslim world that is not Pakistan specific issue, you fail to understand that Ahmediyas publishing their work as Islam is the bone of contention not them following their religion. They are certainly not treated as second class citizens yes they certainly face discrimination by segments of society but they enjoy their rights like any other group. They even have strong missionary activities sometimes even overly passionate like Christian missionaries. I compared them with Mormon because of your " they are not Muslim enough for you " comment it's not unique to Muslims was my intention.

Plenty of stuff on Google on killings by Bengali nationalists but i don't want to dive into that, it will be insult to the victims and again you just did your community killed more which is so sad.

Seriously Christine Fair and Serin! i can quote tons of articles about ' pogroms of Muslims ' in India by  but than they will be equivalent of you quoting Christine Fair and Senge Serin to me, again i provided you census reports and articles for the increased population of Hindus by Indians if there are census reports that show what are change in demographics from then and now, the only changings were in Zia era if i remember correctly but they were quite minimal and they weren't aimed at Hindus, some Muslims from elsewhere settled there and the locals had no reservations.

You missed my point I'm not talking about Muslims from these countries or any ' refugee ' I'm talking about a Muslim and a non Muslim who lives in India and fails to meet the condition of NRC, is there any difference between them in order to gain citizenship afterwards ?You did acknowledge that whatever the official documents NRC will use many poor people will be effected by it regardless of religion so i wouldn't say being scared is stupid. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Azeem

[Beelzebub]

@IgnisExcubitor It's not about journalists i don't like, i follow many people including Naila Inayat, Indian ones but little bit of search shows one someone is presenting half truth that goes for majority of information out there.

 

[IgnisExcubitor]

@Azeem 

Never said pogram. I said there is a serious issue. Even systematic one, where non-Muslim girls are picked up. That list I put up is big enough, and that's just of 2019. I agree there could be other conflicts, but at least the courts should back them, when it is proved that they are raped. No civilised world grants 14 year old to her rapist. At least, you accept the failure of your judiciary and we both agree with that.

Yes, thousands do come here. In fact 40000 refugess are going to be made Indian citizens in the state of UP alone in the first batch of CAA. Most of which are Pakistanis. 

Imran has associated with Taliban in the past. You can chose to ignore that or as you say he was working for the greater good. Just like how Pervez Musharraf called terrorists patriots before admitting that Pakistan army is proud to help them. You can chose to ignore that, too.

If you don't take the likes of Sering ( he  originally hails from Gilgit Baltistan and is a POK activist) and Prof Fair (an American who is equally critical of India and a celebrated academic) seriously, then I don't know what to do. The other sources I have are all Indian, which you will just not accept. 

You can't equate Bengali nationals from Bangladesh with Indians. They were predominately Muslims. They wanted freedom from you guys, because they are culturally and linguistically different. That they suffered so badly in their freedom struggle to get an Independent nation is sad. Not who killed more. One side was fighting for freedom and the other was the oppressor. And the oppressor committed ghastly crimes. All history books show that, except for maybe the ones in Pakistan.

As for the Ahemadiyas, forget the whole world, I know plenty of Pakistanis online who are kind and consider them as Muslims. Even our country's Minority minister, a Muslim, considers Ahemadiyas Muslims. Only bigots everywhere deny them the right to be Muslim. 

Lastly, regarding NRC. I didn't say being scared is stupid. I said rioting over nonexisting law is stupid.

[Beelzebub]

@IgnisExcubitor

I'm one of the biggest critics of judiciary here i know how easy it is to file a wrong case, defend a culprit etc and it's the same everywhere in Pakistan, India, Bangladesh let's be honest i will appreciate if you don't give Indian courts acquainting Modi as a proof of his innocence it's like saying our leaders aren't corrupt because the court favoured in their way. 

Again when i hinted at the current US-Taliban negotiations where Taliban are acknowledged as a party to the discussions and possibly will be forming government in parts of the country i don't know what associating with them means ? That he told to negotiate with them right in the start which they the US eventually did. And on the Musharraf part those were freedom fighters. 

Bro the way Christine Fair got herself celebrated is well known, i mentioned about the demographic changes in POK apart from that i haven't seen any census reports about the massive rise or drop in demography like i provided census reports in two separate articles over the years to show Hindu population has increased not deceased.

Let's agree to disagree on that

Not equating with anything man, just pointed out that a lot of people were killed by Bengali separatist and it is well recorded. 

I'm a bit offended man since you suggested me as a bigot, Ahmidiya not being Muslim is well addressed by Muslim theology of every school of thought, and not considering them Muslim doesn't mean you automatically are mean to them. I had Ahmediya teachers and some mates and i used to discuss with them about how they claim their beliefs to be align with Islam when there are clashing doctrines.

You did say that bring scared of that or protest or riot is stupid but i agree with rioting and protesting beyond a certain limit is stupid but I'll ask again is/will there be any way for someone to avail citizenship if they fail to meet the requirements of NRC for no fault of their own by and large ?

[IgnisExcubitor]

@Azeem

This is my last post on this.

This country's Political class and even authorities like police can be corrupt and shit, but I can vouch for our Judiciary. They have stood up against the mighty Gandhi family (Not Mahatma Gandhi), huge corruptions, scandals and what not. They have even stood up against the present government several times. 

Our judiciary even cared for the terrorists' rights while trials, may it  be the Pakistani Kasab or the Indian terrorist Yakub Menon. The courts gave them their full rights. So, that is one of few good and functioning things about India. It's judiciary. 

We can agree to disagree on Imran Khan but Pervez calling groups like LET, Jaish patriots makes me sick to my stomach, especially after what we have faced from those terror organisations. 

I didn't mean to insult you with the Ahmediyas bit, but why would anyone deny them that right. Most Indian Muslims here deem Ahmediyas as Muslims. Some of my Pakistani friends from Orkut days, consider them Muslims. Why deny them that right. It doesn't affect others if they claim to be Muslims. This is similar to heterosexual people telling gays they can't be together, because the concept of love can only exist between a man and woman. 

 

Lastly, for people losing out in the NRC, they will have the provision to appeal first to the tribunal and then to the three courts. There is plenty there to help a wronged person.

Edited February 29, 2020 by IgnisExcubitor

[Stan]

Four men executed in India for a rape/murder of a woman in Delhi. 

Justice done, you'd say. 

@IgnisExcubitor @Mel81x @Asura

[Mel81x+]

2 minutes ago, Stan said:

Four men executed in India for a rape/murder of a woman in Delhi. 

Justice done, you'd say. 

@IgnisExcubitor @Mel81x @Asura

It's caused some debate across social media about the use of the death penalty as deterrent in this case. The reason being is that no one knows for sure if it will stop these kinds of acts happening and the other issue being debated is why it took so long for the courts to come to a conclusion on the matter as well. I'd say the family got what they wanted in the end but I don't know if it really does anything to stop the act of rape itself. We're not going to see these things of acts stopped permanently, at least not in my lifetime. 

[IgnisExcubitor]

3 minutes ago, Stan said:

Four men executed in India for a rape/murder of a woman in Delhi. 

Justice done, you'd say. 

@IgnisExcubitor @Mel81x @Asura

It's just a closure for the family, who wanted the criminals to be hanged to death. They went through hell these years fighting against quite a few arseholes in judiciary or media, so I am relieved for them.

Here are few things that bug me.

1) In our judicial process everyone gets to go through 3 levels of court and can seek mercy from President even after that. Not only did these convicts go through that, but after the President's approval for hanging, they  submitted several frivolous petitions in court to stop the hanging (like don't hang us because there is too much air pollution which will kill us eventually, don't hang us because there is a pandemic going on currently, etc  to name a few) which must have been gut wrenching for the family to watch.

All this was driven by the money funneled through NGOs that usually oppose death penalty. Now I understand the wider debate around it (and we need to have that debate), but the way these organisations tried to save these guys was disgusting. Definitely tough on the family of the victim, who in fact were even mocked on one occasion by a high profile NGO lawyer ( which was unnecessary). 

 

2) Then there is the case of the Juvenile rapist. The lad who was the youngest but the most brutal. He was couple of months shy of his 18th birthday and hence tried as a juvenile. Which meant he stayed in jail for few months and is currently out living his life under a new name. He should have been tried as a adult and at least left to rot in jail forever. Again remember he was the most brutal.

3) Lastly, on the wider debate of cultural changes, then there is still a lot to be done. And more importantly we need police reforms. 

[Stan]

47 minutes ago, IgnisExcubitor said:

2) Then there is the case of the Juvenile rapist. The lad who was the youngest but the most brutal. He was couple of months shy of his 18th birthday and hence tried as a juvenile. Which meant he stayed in jail for few months and is currently out living his life under a new name. He should have been tried as a adult and at least left to rot in jail forever. Again remember he was the most brutal.

 

Unreal.

[IgnisExcubitor]

2 minutes ago, Stan said:

Unreal.

Yep. 

And I don't want to reduce this into a left VS right debate, but that was only possible because several left leaning activists went out of their way to help him. He even received 10k amount and a sewing machine to start his business. Last heard he was married.

I understand the importance of reformation of criminal as well. But frankly some people don't deserve that. And more importantly, he never faced punishment for his crime.

The sole good thing to come out his case is that the law was reformed. And now if the crime is heinous then a minor (around 15-18 years) will be tried as an adult.

[Stan]

5 minutes ago, IgnisExcubitor said:

Yep. 

And I don't want to reduce this into a left VS right debate, but that was only possible because several left leaning activists went out of their way to help him. He even received 10k amount and a sewing machine to start his business. Last heard he was married.

I understand the importance of reformation of criminal as well. But frankly some people don't deserve that. And more importantly, he never faced punishment for his crime.

The sole good thing to come out his case is that the law was reformed. And now if the crime is heinous then a minor (around 15-18 years) will be tried as an adult.

That's the sad thing about it all as well. Good the law has been changed though but shouldn't have come to that.

[Stan]

How tragic. 7 year old stabbed to death  

The cunt who did it deserves the worst strain of coronavirus. Ever. And made to suffer.

Quote

 

A seven-year-old girl has died after being attacked by a stranger with a knife in a park, police have said.

The girl sustained serious injuries in the attack at Queen's Park in Bolton at about 14:30 GMT, Greater Manchester Police said.

A force spokesman said despite the "best efforts of her family and medical responders, she died a short while later".

A 30-year-old woman was arrested at the scene on suspicion of murder.

Assistant Chief Constable Russ Jackson said officers were "working to understand the motive for this completely random and brutal attack".

"A woman who was not known to the family was detained by a member of the public and then arrested by the police.

"We understand that the woman has some history of mental illness and we are working to understand if this played any part in her motive."

He added that the attack was "a family's worst nightmare."

"The incident is horrendous and I cannot begin to imagine what the family of this little girl are going through.

"We are determined to quickly understand how this came to happen, leaving a young family so distraught and so devastated in an instant," ACC Jackson said.

 

 

[IgnisExcubitor]

This comes on the back of reports of Hindus and Christians being denied food during lockdown.

 

[Stan]

I love when people get outed for being absolute cunts

These 2 imbeciles got expelled from schools/colleges. 

Here she is saying sorry... 

Here she is not being sorry 

 

 

[Stan]

Some cunt firing off guns from a top floor apartment in Kent 

 

[Stan]

Kim Jong Un apparently has popped his clogs. 

[Honey Honey]

Is that another Twitter rumour like the one the other week that Prince Philip had died?

[Bluebird Hewitt]

Exclusive news from the Mirror out of celeb land. It appears that Simon Cowell and Laura Silverman may have split up. The source of the alleged split?

Please read and click the link below. 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/amanda-holdens-daughter-claims-simon-21977161

Only the best stories from the UK. 

[Stan]

4 minutes ago, Bluebird Hewitt said:

Exclusive news from the Mirror out of celeb land. It appears that Simon Cowell and Laura Silverman may have split up. The source of the alleged split?

Please read and click the link below. 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/amanda-holdens-daughter-claims-simon-21977161

Only the best stories from the UK. 

It's exactly the news we've been waiting for for ages.

[Stan]

The poor black kid who got shot while out jogging in Georgia was shot by 2 ex-police officers

He was chased by them and shot. Even when they rang 911, the dispatcher asked what Arbery had done wrong. They continued to shoot him more than once anyway

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/07/ahmaud-arbery-former-police-officer-and-son-charged-in-shooting-of-black-man

 

[Stan]

Would love to know more about why police were there but having seen this footage, it begs the question why the police felt the need to Taser him, in front of his kid, when he wasn't really showing much aggression himself or confrontation towards the police  

Poor kid will be scarred mentally for ages no doubt seeing police shoot his dad, given he'll likely have no idea what a Taser is...