The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[OrangeKhrush]

16 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Those google workers were fired for defacing the google cloud offices and shouting threats at their coworkers, more than they were fired for protesting. Columbia University had to send in riot police because pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian protestors were kicking off and the school had to close it's campus because it couldn't guarantee safety of students. The commencement speakers thing is probably the most egregious of those 3 things... but really is a graduation ceremony the appropriate avenue for making highly political statements on an issue that's incredibly divisive?

Either way, none of those examples demonstrate anything the US is doing because 1.) google isn't the US government, 2.) Columbia and USC aren't the US government, 3.) even the state funded universities in the US aren't the US government - they're funded by the states they reside in.

Is there any limit to the sort of bad behavior the zealots amongst the "globalise the intifada" crowd will tolerate for their cause? Is it not enough to call for perpetual bloodshed in the Middle East?

I am fine with protests however there is a fine line between protests and public disturbance,  violence/threat any kind of targeting of people who are directly related to your opposition or to people who are not interested and forcing them to adopt a stance through coercion is not protest as you said,  it is zealotry.    Protesters arrested for shutting down golden gate bridge and harassing people in my view is well within Law enforcements right to protect the interest of the public. 

[OrangeKhrush]

3 hours ago, 6666 said:

Israel attacks Iran again. They definitely don't like the idea of being held accountable for anything they do.

Heard reports that they didn't think the original attack on Iran would be seen as provocation... These scumbags view killing as their god given right.

From the reports nobody was killed,  if anything it was just a show of power,  that they can hit any target,  including those in very close proximity to Iran's nuclear facilities and completely avoid detection. 

American news reporting an air strike which is the most likely,  Iran have no capacity to detect F35's and the type of strike described looks like a typical precision strike from a aircraft.   It may also have been a AGM 158 JASSM stand off missile which the US recently sent to Israel,  these are long range,  cruise missiles with next to no radar cross section,  given the expense of these,  it is highly unlikely. 

[Spike]

33 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

I am fine with protests however there is a fine line between protests and public disturbance,  violence/threat any kind of targeting of people who are directly related to your opposition or to people who are not interested and forcing them to adopt a stance through coercion is not protest as you said,  it is zealotry.    Protesters arrested for shutting down golden gate bridge and harassing people in my view is well within Law enforcements right to protect the interest of the public. 

This is the exact same thing people said about Martin Luther-King during the civil rights movement in the USA. His disapproval rating was over 70% at time of assassination. 

[OrangeKhrush]

18 minutes ago, Spike said:

This is the exact same thing people said about Martin Luther-King during the civil rights movement in the USA. His disapproval rating was over 70% at time of assassination. 

The civil rights movement conducted legitimate protests,  I am sure there were one or two incidents on the side but his entire rights advocacy protests did not involve threats of violence, vandalism,  civil disturbance.  The right to protest is one thing however it is not absolute, there are limits and if those limits are respected then a protest should be respected. 

[MUFC]

2 hours ago, Spike said:

Formula One.

We need more of this.

[Spike]

45 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The civil rights movement conducted legitimate protests,  I am sure there were one or two incidents on the side but his entire rights advocacy protests did not involve threats of violence, vandalism,  civil disturbance.  The right to protest is one thing however it is not absolute, there are limits and if those limits are respected then a protest should be respected. 

All protests are legitimate, any otherwise would by hypocritical to you libertarianism. There were considerably violent protests, either by those protesting or more often violence by the state. The protests that happened would fall under your idea of illegitimate.

You care more about property than people. 
 

https://images.app.goo.gl/3BpwxQrEHZ5eAuNL9

[Tommy]

6 hours ago, MUFC said:

I think because Norris lost time when he went off track. This is the reason his lap time wasn't deleted.

Norris: "Iran off the track"

[MUFC]

4 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Norris: "Iran off the track"

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 hours ago, 6666 said:

Unfortunately the end goal is unlikely to be achieved but that doesn't mean people should stop drawing attention to it and protesting for it.

Wanting Israel's horrific treatment of Palestinians, that has lasted for decades, to end and wanting Israel's negative influence on governments to end are both extremely justifiable.

But what is the end goal? Is it just a reverse of the Nakba with the shoe on the other foot?

If we were alive at the time of Israel's creation, I would have been against it - punishing Arabs for Europe's centuries of crimes against Jews in the wake of the Holocaust, taking their land and committing atrocities to get that land. But it was created in 1947 - so we're talking about 4 generations (boomers, gen x, millenials, and gen z; 5 if we want to include gen alpha) of Israelis who have been there too. Their ancestors might be guilty of horrible atrocities, but I don't think it's reasonable to paint all Israelis as active and willing participants of all of these atrocities. Beneficiaries of these atrocities? Sure. But if we want to start punishing beneficiaries of all atrocities, the west certainly has a lot to answer for as well.

If the ultimate end goal is unlikely to be achieved because it's just righting the wrongs of the past by the other side doing the same thing that's been done to them... it's not going to create any sort of lasting peace. And if it's unlikely because the geopolitical reality of the situation just means it's basically impossible... then it's not an avenue worth pursuing.

The end goal should be creating a lasting peace and a situation where Palestinian human rights aren't being trampled on a daily basis. This means not supporting further escalation of the conflict and taking steps to actually create a lasting peace.

7 hours ago, 6666 said:

Israel attacks Iran again. They definitely don't like the idea of being held accountable for anything they do.

Heard reports that they didn't think the original attack on Iran would be seen as provocation... These scumbags view killing as their god given right.

This was literally inevitable. We both know how Israel fights, and given that the strikes hit Isfahan we should be thankful it's only military sites that have been struck, and not a populated neighborhood or a significant historic and cultural site (which Isfahan is full of).

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The civil rights movement conducted legitimate protests,  I am sure there were one or two incidents on the side but his entire rights advocacy protests did not involve threats of violence, vandalism,  civil disturbance.  The right to protest is one thing however it is not absolute, there are limits and if those limits are respected then a protest should be respected. 

There was violence, vandalism, and the literal point of his protests was civil disturbance. I'm pretty sure the point of any protest is civil disturbance.

The big distinction is: black people in the civil rights era were very much being oppressed by a racist and white supremacist establishment. That makes any violence and vandalism seem a whole lot more justified. I think anyone in the west has the right to protest (which again, is inevitably going to be some kind of civil disturbance because that's the fucking point of a protest) - but I'm not sure violence and vandalism can be excused when people are protesting against oppression that the protestors themselves are not experiencing. Nobody in the US is directly in harms way from Hamas or the IDF, it's difficult to justify Americans destroying stuff, threatening violence/committing violence, over something happening millions of miles away from them.

We've seen nutjobs in the US, Europe, and Australia literally kill other people over this conflict that they're not actually in any danger from, other than the fact radicalisation has made some people go absolutely mental. It's normal to be disgusted by a music festival being attacked with both murder and rape, or the constant stream of images of dead kids that come out of Gaza. It's not normal to be made rabidly violent and lose all humanity in the wake of a conflict where the two belligerents are routinely committing war crimes.

The international community should be pushing for a peace in a region that's constantly looking like it is at the brink of war. People shouldn't be taking sides in a fight where war crimes are the norm and egging on this conflict to keep escalating.

[6666]

These dickheads continue to be dickheads. US foreign policy continues to be the biggest poison in international politics.

[Dr. Gonzo]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/17/world/middleeast/iran-israel-attack.html?unlocked_article_code=1.lU0.Qh1Z.vo2fz-PMOCWM&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&ugrp=m

if this is true, the Israeli government are really stupid lol

[6666]

Mass graves filled with executed men, women, and children who also had their hands tied behind their backs.

Instead of a big deal being made about this, the main news being focused on seems to be some dickhead provoking protestors and then playing the victim here in the UK, and then there's the US having a meltdown because students are protesting against Israel so obviously they're getting smeared as antisemitic (which should mean nothing coming from zionists).

Israel are getting away with genocide but there are a lot more people aware of Israel's negative hold on governments. Hope is that long term this sees thier influence fade away.

Biden praying this all blows over and people forget about everything before the election. He certainly will.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I don't think we should be pretending like things like this aren't antisemitic:

 

How would we feel if that was 5 black guys standing around with BLM flags & some guy in white robes holds up a sign that says "the Klan's next targets"? Some of the footage coming out of the Columbia protests are outrageous, the media coverage has been insane to me - it's scenes that rival that white nationalist "Unite the Right" in terms of open displays of racial hatred, sort of just being swept under the rug.

There's been this trend among the far-left to champion good and worthwhile causes that deserve support: Palestinian statehood, racial equality, ending police brutality... and then go about support of these things in the most repulsive and repugnant way that draws criticism for these worthwhile causes. Then leaving the movement in tatters for the next trendy cause to protest for. It's honestly a disgrace, because worthwhile causes that make the world a better place should be supported. But going about it in a way that is disgusting is going to do nothing positive.

And I don't see how displays like this picture from Columbia University, or chanting things like "gas the Jews" or "Jews go back to Poland/Romania/Europe" are going to lead to anything positive for those who actually want to see Palestinian statehood and a restoration of Palestinian human rights and dignity.

[Coma+]

34 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don't think we should be pretending like things like this aren't antisemitic:

 

How would we feel if that was 5 black guys standing around with BLM flags & some guy in white robes holds up a sign that says "the Klan's next targets"? Some of the footage coming out of the Columbia protests are outrageous, the media coverage has been insane to me - it's scenes that rival that white nationalist "Unite the Right" in terms of open displays of racial hatred, sort of just being swept under the rug.

There's been this trend among the far-left to champion good and worthwhile causes that deserve support: Palestinian statehood, racial equality, ending police brutality... and then go about support of these things in the most repulsive and repugnant way that draws criticism for these worthwhile causes. Then leaving the movement in tatters for the next trendy cause to protest for. It's honestly a disgrace, because worthwhile causes that make the world a better place should be supported. But going about it in a way that is disgusting is going to do nothing positive.

And I don't see how displays like this picture from Columbia University, or chanting things like "gas the Jews" or "Jews go back to Poland/Romania/Europe" are going to lead to anything positive for those who actually want to see Palestinian statehood and a restoration of Palestinian human rights and dignity.

Did they find the shithead in this picture?  I'd fucking beat him myself.

I think the universities need to take a stance to not allow protests for either side on campus.  It's literally helping no one.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Coma said:

Did they find the shithead in this picture?  I'd fucking beat him myself.

I think the universities need to take a stance to not allow protests for either side on campus.  It's literally helping no one.

I don't think they should ban protests, but when shit crosses into blatant hate speech (as above) and devolves into violence - which has happened now at Columbia University multiple times (and neither "side" is blameless)... the school is right to step in and demand protecting for its students. Evidently, though, that's not enough to quell these protests from growing, their rhetoric getting increasingly ugly, and the threat of future violence seems unlikely.

I don't think being pro-Palestinian or having sympathies that lie with the Palestinians makes you necessarily antisemitic. I don't think being Israelis or pro-Israel people all hate Arabs and think it's just fine for the IDF to slaughter them. But I think there's substantial people amongst the pro-Palestine/pro-Israel sides that take advantage of this conflict to just spread their hatred.

But you're right that these extremists aren't helping anybody. They're not doing anything to better the lives of anyone actually impacted by their "cause" - they're just spreading hatred.

[Spike]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don't think we should be pretending like things like this aren't antisemitic:

 

How would we feel if that was 5 black guys standing around with BLM flags & some guy in white robes holds up a sign that says "the Klan's next targets"? Some of the footage coming out of the Columbia protests are outrageous, the media coverage has been insane to me - it's scenes that rival that white nationalist "Unite the Right" in terms of open displays of racial hatred, sort of just being swept under the rug.

There's been this trend among the far-left to champion good and worthwhile causes that deserve support: Palestinian statehood, racial equality, ending police brutality... and then go about support of these things in the most repulsive and repugnant way that draws criticism for these worthwhile causes. Then leaving the movement in tatters for the next trendy cause to protest for. It's honestly a disgrace, because worthwhile causes that make the world a better place should be supported. But going about it in a way that is disgusting is going to do nothing positive.

And I don't see how displays like this picture from Columbia University, or chanting things like "gas the Jews" or "Jews go back to Poland/Romania/Europe" are going to lead to anything positive for those who actually want to see Palestinian statehood and a restoration of Palestinian human rights and dignity.

I thumbed through the protests, they are a minority being that extreme.

[6666]

Students AND teachers being arrested. Police called in by the universities.

People were afraid of fascism under Trump. Turns out criticising and exposing Israel will do it whoever's in charge.

Also, we skipping over the mass graves to say the protests are too much just like the US news media? A shame.

[Dr. Gonzo]

33 minutes ago, Spike said:

I thumbed through the protests, they are a minority being that extreme.

It's always a minority that's extreme, but the extremists are a problem and their rhetoric reaching more and more people inevitably leads to more extremism. And this small minority has caused quite a bit of noise with their rhetoric, as well as managing to kick off a few times into outright violence. If you've got a university scrambling to at least look like they're making an effort to look like they're protecting students so they don't get hit with a big lawsuit, it's either a considerable minority or they're a very motivated minority.

26 minutes ago, 6666 said:

Also, we skipping over the mass graves to say the protests are too much just like the US news media? A shame.

No just saying people far away from being in actual harms way of this conflict shouldn't be using protests that should be done in the name of human rights and Palestinian statehood shouldn't be using platforms to spread hate and encourage violence.

[Spike]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It's always a minority that's extreme, but the extremists are a problem and their rhetoric reaching more and more people inevitably leads to more extremism. And this small minority has caused quite a bit of noise with their rhetoric, as well as managing to kick off a few times into outright violence. If you've got a university scrambling to at least look like they're making an effort to look like they're protecting students so they don't get hit with a big lawsuit, it's either a considerable minority or they're a very motivated minority.

No just saying people far away from being in actual harms way of this conflict shouldn't be using protests that should be done in the name of human rights and Palestinian statehood shouldn't be using platforms to spread hate and encourage violence.

People respect violence 

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, Spike said:

People respect violence 

They probably shouldn't.

[Spike]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

They probably shouldn't.

Yes, well they’ll think differently after I bash a chair over your head and call you a bigot.

[Rucksackfranzose]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

They probably shouldn't.

Well, violence is a way to get public attention in a time, when sensationalist head lines is what media are desiring the most. Doesn't make it necessaryly acceptable, I admit.

Edited April 23 by Rucksackfranzose

[Dr. Gonzo]

IR sentences Iran’s biggest rapper to death: https://www.iranintl.com/en/202404240714

[MUFC]