Referees/VAR in the Premier League

[Rick]

2 hours ago, Stan said:

Most of the time.

Because they want it to work quickly and probably know the immense pressure they're under...

Yet it still takes an age to make decisions. They inspire zero confidence, and these releases only showcase how poor the officiating is across the league. 

[Stan]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

Yet it still takes an age to make decisions. They inspire zero confidence, and these releases only showcase how poor the officiating is across the league. 

I agree. VAR is clearly here to stay so I just hope they continue to look into how they can make it better with it's functionality and application. 

I think if they wanted to try and restore confidence and get rid of the 'I didn't want to piss my mate off' that Mike Dean instilled recently, they should get independent VAR officials in place. Ones that are detached from any referees and perhaps individuals who have played the game. 

How you take away the bias if that was the case is another aspect to consider. 

But PGMOL's priority (aside from publishing these VAR communications) should be to eradicate controversies created week after week. 

[Danny]

2 hours ago, Stan said:

I agree. VAR is clearly here to stay so I just hope they continue to look into how they can make it better with it's functionality and application. 

I think if they wanted to try and restore confidence and get rid of the 'I didn't want to piss my mate off' that Mike Dean instilled recently, they should get independent VAR officials in place. Ones that are detached from any referees and perhaps individuals who have played the game. 

How you take away the bias if that was the case is another aspect to consider. 

But PGMOL's priority (aside from publishing these VAR communications) should be to eradicate controversies created week after week. 

It's a lose-lose situation because then the issue is you have people who haven't played the game or refereed up close making decisions like that, and that will cause drama at some point.

The issue we have now, literally spoke about in this thread is the speed in which they want to make decisions (there's also been arguments made that the refs should be sent to the screens more for some obvious issues) and that all comes from complaints that it was too slow and breaking the game up when it was introduced.

Difficult decision to get right, I thought the Fulham goal was interesting as the ref seemed to make a valid point about the offside. But I still think the goalkeeper not knowing if the ball will bounce off the player effects their decision making and so it should have been called. But the decision they made, that sort of thinking isn't spoken about publicly.

[Stan]

I've just watched the programme back. Thought it was good but next step is to have every decision aired... 

Onana - Man Utd vs Wolves 

Says its late and clumsy, off the ball collision. Seems to be that Dawson heading it means the VAR changed their own mind. VAR official almost seemed to be on the right track to at least send the ref to the monitor for a review. Bad call acknowledged by Webb/PGMOL. And should have been a penalty. What annoyed me is that the ref on pitch automatically dismissed it as 'no way...just a normal collision...'. Anyone watching it could see it wasn't! 

Van Dijk red card - Newcastle vs Liverpool

Officials got this correct on the pitch. And in the VAR room. No issue there as all the reasonings for a red were present. 

John Egan - handball vs Man City

This is correct because Egan's hand wasn't grounded and his arm was up by his side. Not sure there was much of a debate here, or that there should have been. Not sure I agree with Webb saying Egan smacks the floor knowing it was a penalty, more that it's been given as one, normal frustration of the player. 

Manuel Akanji offside vs Fulham

Annoying that Akanji was clearly noticed as being in the line of vision. But they deemed him stepping away. Even though that in itself would clearly put the goalkeeper off. I think it clearly impacts the keeper. He makes a motion to kick the ball as well but is just late. I think it's not even that much of a tough call because the hesitation. All well and good Webb saying its clear to see it on the programme, but why does an official not see it during the game. It's not like the footage is different from the weekend to last night. @Danny agree that it's not spoken about publicly but this is what literally everyone has wanted from the start - clear communication of decisions. 

Kai Havertz penalty vs Man Utd 

Think this was also a good decision on the day. Referee would have been hard pressed on the pitch to dismiss the initial penalty claim. Minimal contact but initiated by Havertz. If there's contact by Wan-Bissaka's first step across then 100% a penalty. But there wasn't. Good use of VAR for me. 

Zaroury red card vs Man City

VAR correctly upgrades this as its dangerous play. Studs halfway up the back of Walker's calf and it's reckless. Scraped down a little too. Don't get why there'd be any debate about this (if there was). 

 

 

Need more programme like this for now to clear up some decisions. But hopefully the actual need for them isn't required because a) we'll hear the comms at some point during the game and b) there won't actually be any controversies. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Stan said:

b) there won't actually be any controversies. 

pigs might fly too

[Stan]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

pigs might fly too

One can hope! 

[MUFC]

Always thought for years that there was corruption in football via dodgy betting and refs. Since VAR was introduced and seeing how dodgy so many decisions still are. Am pretty certain the Premier real has forms of corruption going on.

[6666]

Hearing pundits and journalists say VAR should be gotten ridden of is doing my head in.

Offside decisions being incorrect was a lot more common before VAR and the mistake in the Tottenham/Liverpool wouldn't have happened if the officials on that day were competent.

[MUFC]

1 hour ago, 6666 said:

Hearing pundits and journalists say VAR should be gotten ridden of is doing my head in.

Offside decisions being incorrect was a lot more common before VAR and the mistake in the Tottenham/Liverpool wouldn't have happened if the officials on that day were competent.

It kind of feels more acceptable pre-VAR as it's much more difficult. But when you have replays which still aren't always clear. When it's blatantly obvious with replays what the outcome should be and they're still getting it wrong. Is there any point to it?

[Gunnersaurus]

4 hours ago, 6666 said:

Hearing pundits and journalists say VAR should be gotten ridden of is doing my head in.

Offside decisions being incorrect was a lot more common before VAR and the mistake in the Tottenham/Liverpool wouldn't have happened if the officials on that day were competent.

That's a balanced view I'd say. The mistake on the weekend was one of the worst mistakes ever. It doesn't happen every week. For me personally I would change it slightly. To disalow a goal I would keep the clear and obvious bit.I don't think anyone wants to see every goal checked.  However for red cards and penalties I would allow the var officials to say what they think is more likely not a clear mistake. By doing that I think you will get more correct decisions and it wouldn't slow down the game to much. In other sports it doesn't have to be a clear error they can go on what is more likely. Part of the issue with var is that fans are biased towards their own club. Virtually every single fan thinks referees are against them. Which gives an unbalanced view. At the same time I do admit it  hasn't worked as well as I thought it would. 

[Gunnersaurus]

3 hours ago, MUFC said:

It kind of feels more acceptable pre-VAR as it's much more difficult. But when you have replays which still aren't always clear. When it's blatantly obvious with replays what the outcome should be and they're still getting it wrong. Is there any point to it?

You still more decisions right with it. And a lot of the decisions fans don't agree with so it proves its not clear and obvious.  Let's be fair mate even of they used a super computer that was 100% accurate a lot of fans would still moan.

[Gunnersaurus]

On 01/10/2023 at 06:09, MUFC said:

Always thought for years that there was corruption in football via dodgy betting and refs. Since VAR was introduced and seeing how dodgy so many decisions still are. Am pretty certain the Premier real has forms of corruption going on.

If they do it probably benefits the top clubs and man utd probably benefit from it 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Gunnersaurus said:

If they do it probably benefits the top clubs and man utd probably benefit from it 

Pretty sure Man City’s paying refs tbh. The VAR crew was in the UAE getting £20k each 2 days before the match refereeing in the league owned by… Man City’s owners.

Even if they’re not bent, it’s got the appearance of corruption so how stupid of Howard Webb and PMGOL to allow it.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I thought Riley was bad as the head of PMGOL - but Webb is somehow worse. Just like when they were referees.

Dunno how 2 of the most shite refs I’ve seen in my life ended up as the boss of all referees in the country… but it explains a lot about the state of officiating in the country.

[Gunnersaurus]

15 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I thought Riley was bad as the head of PMGOL - but Webb is somehow worse. Just like when they were referees.

Dunno how 2 of the most shite refs I’ve seen in my life ended up as the boss of all referees in the country… but it explains a lot about the state of officiating in the country.

Webb got selected for a world cup final. He wasn't shite 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Gunnersaurus

[Stan]

Webb's not worse than Riley, either.

Webb is less shit, but at least he vocally wants some change and improvement. I don't ever recall Riley saying anything to actually try and improve the situation. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

9 minutes ago, Gunnersaurus said:

Webb goy selected for a world cup final. He wasn't shite 

He was shite

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Stan said:

Webb's not worse than Riley, either.

Webb is less shit, but at least he vocally wants some change and improvement. I don't ever recall Riley saying anything to actually try and improve the situation. 

Webb just talks a lot about improvement or transparency. But also doesn’t want the club to have the audio from VAR yesterday.

Talk is cheap. It’s easy to issue a non-apology apology like they’ve done numerous times since Webb’s taken over.

It’s harder to actually improve refs or be transparent, so he’s not going to do that.

[Gunnersaurus]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

He was shite

You say that about every referee. You don't referee a world cup final of you're not good 

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 minutes ago, Gunnersaurus said:

You say that about every referee. You don't referee a world cup final of you're not good 

Nah I say that about English and Spanish refs. Because they are shite.

He missed a blatant red card on Nigel de Jong’s foul on Alonso in that World Cup final. It’s not evidence of him being a good referee. That final was terribly officiated and went out of control - I’m pretty sure it remains the World Cup final with the most amount of bookings, and players lost their heads and got incredibly aggressive after that De Jong challenge because they thought they’d get away with any foul without being sent off.

Italian and German refs seem to be far less shite than ours. Why is that?

[Gunnersaurus]

6 minutes ago, Stan said:

Webb's not worse than Riley, either.

Webb is less shit, but at least he vocally wants some change and improvement. I don't ever recall Riley saying anything to actually try and improve the situation. 

He did improve it over the time he was there I think. It was clearly better in season 3 than 1. The problem with being vocal is if you don't do what you said you get heavily critised. I can understand him being less vocal. You do have to remember a lot of the decisions have subjective elements to them. Most fans think they get the most bad decisions against them. With means they think it's worse than it is.  You're one of the few I've seen who doesn't do that 

[Gunnersaurus]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Nah I say that about English and Spanish refs. Because they are shite.

He missed a blatant red card on Nigel de Jong’s foul on Alonso in that World Cup final. It’s not evidence of him being a good referee. That final was terribly officiated and went out of control - I’m pretty sure it remains the World Cup final with the most amount of bookings, and players lost their heads and got incredibly aggressive after that De Jong challenge because they thought they’d get away with any foul without being sent off.

Italian and German refs seem to be far less shite than ours. Why is that?

That was a bad decision but he was still good enough to get to the final.  Every country has good and bad refs. I remember reading about the top rated refs in the world and they mainly come from different countries. He was still way better than most. 

[Stan]

23 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Italian and German refs seem to be far less shite than ours. Why is that?

Could be a plethora of things but I'd love to see how they're trained up from grass-roots through to professional football and up the hierarchy. 

And if it that's remarkably different to how we do things here, perhaps PGMOL should take a leaf out of their book. Either way the referee/VAR training does need to improve.

Or perhaps we're just incredibly biased and so tired of absolute howlers, we miss when referees have good games. This topic goes very quiet whenever VAR gets decisions right (and they do, it's not like every decision is bad or wrong). Everyone is so against VAR that the bad decisions stick out way more than anything else. 

Our game against Norwich last week went by and there wasn't any discussion about poor refereeing and if I remember correctly the general consensus was that he had a good game. No VAR in that game but I don't recall any clear & obvious errors that would have been changed by VAR even if it was in place. 

[Stan]

A valid point 

 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Like La Liga & Serie A aren’t popular leagues watched internationally - “it would never happen out in the open like it has happened elsewhere in the world not even that long ago”