Liverpool 3-1 Arsenal - Saturday 24th August, 2019

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

It had to be a tactical masterclass with risks and hoping for excellent performances to narrow the chasm that exists between both squads. Luck obviously has a lot to do with it and is part and parcel in football... He was right to play that game but for me he should've played two upfront to open up late arrivals into the box and also double-up on their attacking flanks.

The tactics yesterday were pretty pathetic tbh. Sit deep and hope we don’t score, for the first half. For the second half it seemed like the side just gave up. Pretty uninspired stuff.

[RandoEFC+]

Yeah not having it at all. I'd be ashamed to see Everton's tactics in any football match be to let all of the play go through the opposition full backs and literally just rely on hope or luck that they don't eventually score from it, and Arsenal fans should be expecting a lot more than Everton fans. 

The plan was park the bus and rely on Pepe's pace. What's the point in bringing in players like Ceballos if you're not going to make any attempt to control the midfield?

Put it this way, Mourinho sets a team up like that at Anfield he gets absolutely slated for it.

I just can't understand the mentality of Arsenal at all. For how many more seasons is it acceptable to just waive matches against City and Liverpool because they're too good for you, or is that just the permanent state of mind now? 0 wins, 6 draws and 16 defeats in the last 22 visits to other top six sides. The level of acceptance that you're going to get beaten is the sort of thing you expect from a newly promoted Steve Bruce or Neil Warnock side, and that's reflected in the very damning stats about how many goals Liverpool have put past Arsenal in the last 5 season or whatever it is. 

It's just embarrassing for a club of Arsenal's size and the fans should be absolutely ashamed by it, not just shrugging it off. Absolute light years away from challenging for the title again and getting further away every season, and you can't even argue that you dont have the resources anymore because it hasn't held Spurs back and I'd hazard a guess that Liverpool's lineup yesterday isn't much more expensive than Arsenal's, if at all.

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Yeah not having it at all. I'd be ashamed to see Everton's tactics in any football match be to let all of the play go through the opposition full backs and literally just rely on hope or luck that they don't eventually score from it, and Arsenal fans should be expecting a lot more than Everton fans. 

The plan was park the bus and rely on Pepe's pace. What's the point in bringing in players like Ceballos if you're not going to make any attempt to control the midfield?

Put it this way, Mourinho sets a team up like that at Anfield he gets absolutely slated for it.

I just can't understand the mentality of Arsenal at all. For how many more seasons is it acceptable to just waive matches against City and Liverpool because they're too good for you, or is that just the permanent state of mind now? 0 wins, 6 draws and 16 defeats in the last 22 visits to other top six sides. The level of acceptance that you're going to get beaten is the sort of thing you expect from a newly promoted Steve Bruce or Neil Warnock side, and that's reflected in the very damning stats about how many goals Liverpool have put past Arsenal in the last 5 season or whatever it is. 

It's just embarrassing for a club of Arsenal's size and the fans should be absolutely ashamed by it, not just shrugging it off. Absolute light years away from challenging for the title again and getting further away every season, and you can't even argue that you dont have the resources anymore because it hasn't held Spurs back and I'd hazard a guess that Liverpool's lineup yesterday isn't much more expensive than Arsenal's, if at all.

Sometimes I read your posts and just think “is he just me but an Evertonian?” 

[Stan]

David Luiz yesterday in the 2 key incidents had a shocker. Complaining about the shirt pull then got absolutely rinsed by Salah for his 2nd. I know he didn't want to commit a foul but he committed way to early. It's what Salah thrives on and Luiz made it even easier for him. 

Luiz strikes me as the hot and cold player. Can be very good on his day but also have massive brainfarts under pressure. 

[SirBalon]

3 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The tactics yesterday were pretty pathetic tbh. Sit deep and hope we don’t score, for the first half. For the second half it seemed like the side just gave up. Pretty uninspired stuff.

We couldn't compete with you in any way. That's a fact and the tactics were spot on, just the team selection was strange.

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

We couldn't compete with you in any way. That's a fact and the tactics were spot on, just the team selection was strange.

Other than Pepe and after we took Mane off and were coasting a bit, Arsenal offered less going forward than the other two sides we faced in the league. Those players on Arsenal are far better than the players at Norwich and Southampton. And the tactics Emery played were designed to keep you constantly under pressure - a very deep line against our high press, leaving our fullbacks... who make so many chances for us.

I don’t agree that the tactics were spot on. It was extra negative and basically guaranteed to have Arsenal under pressure for the entire match. And that’s after we’ve actually looked shaky at the back this season and we’ve got Adrian in the nets. It was a cowardly approach that had Arsenal playing for a point - Arsenal are too big to be doing that. Especially as you’ve got some incredible attacking talent and have made some good signings this summer.

I expect more of Arsenal and the other big clubs. Like @RandoEFC said, Mourinho was rightly slated for his expensive and cowardly United and would be slated for approaching a match at Anfield like that. So I expect more of Emery

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, shut up said:

 

I think this is why liverpool fans are bizarrely rattled on here. The tactics were absolutely spot on and nearly worked. The only thing separating the two sides yesterday (in terms of goals) was two Luiz mistakes. We frustrated them like mad in the 1st half, then as soon as empty head gave away the penalty the game was over. Up until that point we were in the game.

No idea why liverpool fans expect us to go up there with 3 of our back 4 out, Pepe and Torriera not fully fit and try and go at them. It would have been 5/6-1 instead of the 3. 

Yeah I guess I just don’t think Arsenal are as bad as you think they are. The side reminds me of Klopp’s first full season in charge - remarkable attacking talent and shite at the back. I think the best approach would be trying to outscore opponents. And we would have seen more out of Arsenal’s best players.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind watching us play against sides that sit deep and invite pressure - particularly when they don’t defend well consistently so even when they defend well (like the first half) they can be broken down (like the first half). Yeah things could have been different with those Pepe breakaways, and by the way he looks like an incredible signing, but that’s the thing about smash and grab football- you have a couple of chances and you need to take them. And when you don’t take them against a side that grinds your defense down, that usually doesn’t end well.

When we were an unbalanced side, we just focused on trying to outscore everyone else regardless of how big or small. And if we tried to shut up shop we’d have defensive bowlers make it backfire.

And I just think that’s what Emery should be looking to do here with all of that attacking talent in the side. Especially with an error prone backline.

[LFCMadLad]

3 hours ago, shut up said:

 

I think this is why liverpool fans are bizarrely rattled on here. The tactics were absolutely spot on and nearly worked. The only thing separating the two sides yesterday (in terms of goals) was two Luiz mistakes. We frustrated them like mad in the 1st half, then as soon as empty head gave away the penalty the game was over. Up until that point we were in the game.

No idea why liverpool fans expect us to go up there with 3 of our back 4 out, Pepe and Torriera not fully fit and try and go at them. It would have been 5/6-1 instead of the 3. 

Fucking joking aren't ya? We absolutely dick your lot every time we play . Wish we played Arsenal every week because we would totally piss the league. 

Who is rattled btw? We just slapped your arse yet again, it's not even funny anymore. 

[LFCMike]

8 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Yeah not having it at all. I'd be ashamed to see Everton's tactics in any football match be to let all of the play go through the opposition full backs and literally just rely on hope or luck that they don't eventually score from it, and Arsenal fans should be expecting a lot more than Everton fans. 

The plan was park the bus and rely on Pepe's pace. What's the point in bringing in players like Ceballos if you're not going to make any attempt to control the midfield?

Put it this way, Mourinho sets a team up like that at Anfield he gets absolutely slated for it.

I just can't understand the mentality of Arsenal at all. For how many more seasons is it acceptable to just waive matches against City and Liverpool because they're too good for you, or is that just the permanent state of mind now? 0 wins, 6 draws and 16 defeats in the last 22 visits to other top six sides. The level of acceptance that you're going to get beaten is the sort of thing you expect from a newly promoted Steve Bruce or Neil Warnock side, and that's reflected in the very damning stats about how many goals Liverpool have put past Arsenal in the last 5 season or whatever it is. 

It's just embarrassing for a club of Arsenal's size and the fans should be absolutely ashamed by it, not just shrugging it off. Absolute light years away from challenging for the title again and getting further away every season, and you can't even argue that you dont have the resources anymore because it hasn't held Spurs back and I'd hazard a guess that Liverpool's lineup yesterday isn't much more expensive than Arsenal's, if at all.

In all fairness, Bruce has more away wins at the top 6 than any Everton manager

[Chaaay AFC]

Yeah let's go to Anfield where they are unbeaten in 42 league game and the champions of Europe and play them at their own game. If we had done that we would have been slaughtered for being so open and we would have got annihilated. This is why we wanted Wenger out, he never changed his style of play and that got us nowhere, just constant beatings. 

Ultimately it didn't work but it had the right makings. For all of Liverpool's possession on the wings they created no real chances and only completed 6 of 23 crosses. I wouldn't even say we parked the bus either we left Pepe and Aubameyang upfront together, so we didn't have everyman behind the ball and we had 48% of the possession. 

At the end of the day this Liverpool team is as elite as it comes, you have to respect them. They are at their peak whilst we are still in our transition phase and trying to create our best XI. Spurs did the exact same thing at the Etihad and with a bit of luck they came away with a point. You have to be realistic, we were never beating Liverpool going gung ho and at this early stage of the season getting a pummelling would have been a disaster. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Well I hope you take the same approach in the reverse fixture as well

[RandoEFC+]

3 hours ago, Chaaay AFC said:

Yeah let's go to Anfield where they are unbeaten in 42 league game and the champions of Europe and play them at their own game. If we had done that we would have been slaughtered for being so open and we would have got annihilated. This is why we wanted Wenger out, he never changed his style of play and that got us nowhere, just constant beatings. 

Ultimately it didn't work but it had the right makings. For all of Liverpool's possession on the wings they created no real chances and only completed 6 of 23 crosses. I wouldn't even say we parked the bus either we left Pepe and Aubameyang upfront together, so we didn't have everyman behind the ball and we had 48% of the possession. 

At the end of the day this Liverpool team is as elite as it comes, you have to respect them. They are at their peak whilst we are still in our transition phase and trying to create our best XI. Spurs did the exact same thing at the Etihad and with a bit of luck they came away with a point. You have to be realistic, we were never beating Liverpool going gung ho and at this early stage of the season getting a pummelling would have been a disaster. 

I'm afraid I'm still going to have to completely disagree with you.

Please explain to me how shutting down the midfield is the way to stop Liverpool. Let's neuter the attacking threat of Henderson and Wijnaldum and just leave Robertson and Alexander-Arnold to run rampant down the flanks and hope for the best? Liverpool's midfield is effective in many ways but it isn't the source of their goals.

If the tactic was to win the midfield battle then where is Torreira? What position was Aubameyang playing? The attacking strategy was knock it into space for Pepe, and Aubameyang didn't exactly track back and stop Liverpool's full backs from dominating the wide areas, so what was he supposed to be doing?

I wouldn't say Arsenal were unlucky that it didn't pay off. Giving Robertson and Alexander-Arnold all that space is asking for trouble. And what was it for? Arsenal didn't even dominate the midfield with 4 vs 3. If Liverpool's full backs were on top form it could easily have been yet another 4-0 by half time scenario.

I'm not saying you should have gone gung ho but if you're going to set up to defend, which I agree you have to do against Liverpool away, then at least do it properly, play with ten men behind the ball, leave Pepe up front if you want, play a 4-5-1 and have two wide players man mark Liverpool's full backs if that's what it takes to keep them quiet. Don't play Aubameyang as one of those wingers if he isn't capable of that, don't play Ceballos in midfield if your game plan is to cede the majority of possession and make life difficult for your opponents to play through you.

All that said, the tactics weren't even my big issue with Arsenal yesterday. It was the mentality, they're a team waiting to lose at Anfield. The difference between that and Spurs at City is that Spurs believe in themselves when they go forward. Yes they got very lucky but they didn't just hope one of their forwards would bag a goal or two from their limited opportunities, they knew they were capable of it. With Arsenal it really was just wishful thinking.

I have no desire to bash Arsenal. Of the top six sides I've always found you to be the most likeable, I just think you should have higher standards and stop shrugging these results and performances off. At the moment all I can see is the same old Arsenal.

You need to do what Liverpool have done in many ways. The attack is pretty much there, like theirs has been for many seasons now, but their defence was shite, like yours is now. They made a couple of dodgy signings in Karius and Klavan and possibly some others, but overall they identified the men who would solve their problem and chose the right moment to get them in. Signing David Luiz especially seems to me like the same old Arsenal. Yes he's experienced, yes he came fairly cheap, but he's an ageing centre half who's place at one of your main rivals was under threat and he won't move you forward in the slightest.

Just my take anyway, I'm open to new information that disproves anything I've said because you know a lot more about your club than I do.

[The Artful Dodger]

Arsenal were absolutely pummelled throughout. What game were you watching? There's no shame in it but this idea that arsenal 'nearly' pulled it off is bollocks. 

[6666]

Just now, The Artful Dodger said:

Arsenal were absolutely pummelled throughout. What game were you watching? There's no shame in it but this idea that arsenal 'nearly' pulled it off is bollocks. 

They didn't have any real clear cut chance before the first goal despite having a lot of the ball whereas we had a couple of very good opportunities. The plan, which I'm not a massive fan of, was working up to that point. After the first goal though, we seemed like we didn't have any idea what to do.

[Chaaay AFC]

47 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

I'm afraid I'm still going to have to completely disagree with you.

Please explain to me how shutting down the midfield is the way to stop Liverpool. Let's neuter the attacking threat of Henderson and Wijnaldum and just leave Robertson and Alexander-Arnold to run rampant down the flanks and hope for the best? Liverpool's midfield is effective in many ways but it isn't the source of their goals.

If the tactic was to win the midfield battle then where is Torreira? What position was Aubameyang playing? The attacking strategy was knock it into space for Pepe, and Aubameyang didn't exactly track back and stop Liverpool's full backs from dominating the wide areas, so what was he supposed to be doing?

I wouldn't say Arsenal were unlucky that it didn't pay off. Giving Robertson and Alexander-Arnold all that space is asking for trouble. And what was it for? Arsenal didn't even dominate the midfield with 4 vs 3. If Liverpool's full backs were on top form it could easily have been yet another 4-0 by half time scenario.

I'm not saying you should have gone gung ho but if you're going to set up to defend, which I agree you have to do against Liverpool away, then at least do it properly, play with ten men behind the ball, leave Pepe up front if you want, play a 4-5-1 and have two wide players man mark Liverpool's full backs if that's what it takes to keep them quiet. Don't play Aubameyang as one of those wingers if he isn't capable of that, don't play Ceballos in midfield if your game plan is to cede the majority of possession and make life difficult for your opponents to play through you.

All that said, the tactics weren't even my big issue with Arsenal yesterday. It was the mentality, they're a team waiting to lose at Anfield. The difference between that and Spurs at City is that Spurs believe in themselves when they go forward. Yes they got very lucky but they didn't just hope one of their forwards would bag a goal or two from their limited opportunities, they knew they were capable of it. With Arsenal it really was just wishful thinking.

I have no desire to bash Arsenal. Of the top six sides I've always found you to be the most likeable, I just think you should have higher standards and stop shrugging these results and performances off. At the moment all I can see is the same old Arsenal.

You need to do what Liverpool have done in many ways. The attack is pretty much there, like theirs has been for many seasons now, but their defence was shite, like yours is now. They made a couple of dodgy signings in Karius and Klavan and possibly some others, but overall they identified the men who would solve their problem and chose the right moment to get them in. Signing David Luiz especially seems to me like the same old Arsenal. Yes he's experienced, yes he came fairly cheap, but he's an ageing centre half who's place at one of your main rivals was under threat and he won't move you forward in the slightest.

Just my take anyway, I'm open to new information that disproves anything I've said because you know a lot more about your club than I do.

The diamond had nothing to do with nullifying the midfield it was to stop Mane, Salah and Firmino. We crowded the centre to avoid giving them space that's why we gave up the wings because they're not an aerial team. We dealt with all their crosses with ease and we was well in the game until we conceded two sloppy goals either side of half time. Unfortunately that cost us and going 2-0 down at Anfield is a death sentence. 

Maybe it was the wrong tactic, obviously because ultimately we got beat but I got the premise of it and what Emery was trying to do. 

Season is still so early and we have a lot of players to come back still, especially in defence. You also have to bear in mind this new technical team we have put together is in its infancy, they need time and Arsenal fans are giving them patience. Gazidis and Wenger left a mess, it's going to take time. I'm not going to throw my toys out the pram, we aren't competing with Liverpool and City any time soon. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

25 minutes ago, shut up said:

Pummeled how? Up until Luiz cost us the pen and made the error for Salah's goal Liverpool had the ball but did nothing. How many saves did leno have to make? Lol 5 shots in target = pummeled  after the Luiz masterclass we did fell apart but that's nothing to do with Emerys tactics 

Their first goal had to come from a set piece. We hardly gave their forwards anything.tactics were spot on. 

Weird how you’re using shots on target as your metric. We had 25 shots to your 9.

[Dr. Gonzo]

25 minutes ago, Chaaay AFC said:

We crowded the centre to avoid giving them space that's why we gave up the wings because they're not an aerial team.

Pretty sure we’ve scored more goals from headers than any other side since the start of last season. And it’s not exactly a secret which players in our squad create the most chances.

[The Artful Dodger]

28 minutes ago, shut up said:

Pummeled how? Up until Luiz cost us the pen and made the error for Salah's goal Liverpool had the ball but did nothing. How many saves did leno have to make? Lol 5 shots in target = pummeled  after the Luiz masterclass we did fell apart but that's nothing to do with Emerys tactics 

Their first goal had to come from a set piece. We hardly gave their forwards anything.tactics were spot on. 

Liverpool absolutely dominated and it was always a matter of time. Hanging on for dear life and hoping to get a lucky break is a valid tactic. But let's not rewrite the game. You were never comfortable.

[Dr. Gonzo]

14 minutes ago, shut up said:

most of those shots were hit and hopes from 30+ yards. Leno had nothing to do until the two mistakes. I've never seen liverpool have so few clear cut chances in a game for over a year.

Most of our shots weren’t from 30 yards out , many were off target because the shots were blocked in a crowded box. In that second half before we pulled Mane off, we were routinely going forward and cutting through your defense like butter.

Crowding the box was a good defensive strategy. Packing the midfield and subsequently losing the midfield battle while leaving our fullbacks wide open was not a great strategy, as it let us stretch you and put an error prone defense under constant pressure.

[Chaaay AFC]

42 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Weird how you’re using shots on target as your metric. We had 25 shots to your 9.

14 of those 25 were blocked shots. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 minutes ago, Chaaay AFC said:

14 of those 25 were blocked shots. 

Which comes from a crowded box, which is a good strategy against us - or any other attacking side really. But I do think trying to win the midfield battle at the expense of keeping our fullbacks wide open meant we would just stretch your diamond midfield out and then we’d win the midfield battle. Then you were constantly under pressure, you did well for 40 odd minutes - but with an error prone backline being under the cosh for that long means more chances to eventually break down and let us score.

I think there was a way to still defend dee against us, but also to try to close down and cut out the fullbacks (Southampton were pretty decent at this at times). It stops us from creating and putting the defense under pressure, and often leads to good countering opportunities. Which with Pepe looking as good as he did on the counter with his limited moments, could have been pretty bad for us.

I think Arsenal have all the elements to be a very very dangerous attacking/counter attacking side. But I think the defensive approach on Saturday was just all wrong in terms of nullifying our strengths and attacking our weaknesses.

By the same token, it’s a squad that’s had some big changes and needing new players to be brought in, we’re 3 matches in, and there’s plenty of time to get it right and mistakes are sometimes made early. And we’re probably a tough team to prepare for.

[The Artful Dodger]

It is amazing at how the Arsenal fans who used sneer and mock anyone who didn't play into their hands have now fully embraced the 'kick it long and hope' when it suits. Nobody is saying to what you did was 'bad' just that it didn't really work. 

[SirBalon]

30 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

It is amazing at how the Arsenal fans who used sneer and mock anyone who didn't play into their hands have now fully embraced the 'kick it long and hope' when it suits. Nobody is saying to what you did was 'bad' just that it didn't really work. 

 

Let’s not get all nostalgic. Problem with British society these days is that they don’t learn to let go.

[The Artful Dodger]

3 hours ago, SirBalon said:

 

Let’s not get all nostalgic. Problem with British society these days is that they don’t learn to let go.

I know arsenal under George Graham! How many of your fans even know about him? Arsenal are one of the great English clubs through sheer bloody mindedness. 

Remember asking my old man about football in the past and arsenal were always the club who were ruthlessly efficient. 

[Lucas]

I really don't see why Arsenal should be so scrutinised on here for a game that happened 3 days ago?

They tried something, it didn't work. No one died, life moves on.

It's like this thread has developed into a thing now. Has this become a thing? It feels like it's a thing