Coronavirus (COVID-19) Outbreak

[Stan]

I hope she gets ruined financially because of the debt she has suffered by hoarding this all when it could have been put to much better use.

 

[Honey Honey]

"my right to buy what I want"

This virus has made an absolute tit out of libertarians.

[Stan]

Germany to experience second wave of cases?

[tlr]

13 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

"my right to buy what I want"

This virus has made an absolute tit out of libertarians.

As an avowed libertarian myself I've taken a different angle during all this. Being an advocate for self-responsibility and not harming others I am minimising going out full stop and only taking what I need when I buy things. Greed unfortunately is a feature in all walks of life and as a libertarian I just hope the genuine good in people comes out during times like this. Maybe if we'd not all acted like self centred cunts in the weeks leading up to the lockdown we'd have needed less strong or harsh state intervention and could perhaps have staved it all off better. But there we go.

[MUFC]

People never followed rules at the start. But when the individual who's suppose to be setting the example, the PM. Is boasting that he shook everyones hand, how do you expect people to take it seriously?

[Honey Honey]

1 hour ago, tlr said:

As an avowed libertarian myself I've taken a different angle during all this. Being an advocate for self-responsibility and not harming others I am minimising going out full stop and only taking what I need when I buy things. Greed unfortunately is a feature in all walks of life and as a libertarian I just hope the genuine good in people comes out during times like this. Maybe if we'd not all acted like self centred cunts in the weeks leading up to the lockdown we'd have needed less strong or harsh state intervention and could perhaps have staved it all off better. But there we go.

Fair play. It's a shame most the media present ones advocate selfishness and mass death.

 

In similar vein only 3% in a recent survey oppose buying non-essential items online. Quite incredible. Online clothing sales are through the roof. A whistleblower said they cried on their way to the M&S warehouse every day and cried on the way home because they were made to go in and pack candles. 

In France, Amazon have been ordered by the court to only sell essential items because their warehouse conditions are shite.

You've got the Royal Mail now cancelling Saturday post and a number of depots were striking about safety at the start of the crisis. 

 

[Bluewolf]

1 hour ago, Harvsky said:

A whistleblower said they cried on their way to the M&S warehouse every day and cried on the way home because they were made to go in and pack candles. 

When you hear about things like this going on it's ridiculous and they have my sympathy... clearly shouldn't be on the list to order at all and should only be putting food and other essential items available for people to buy... 

I was also reading that the UK have repatriated over 1.3 Million people since the outbreak began with some 200,000 returning from Spain and another 50,000 from Australia in the last month alone, I am also aware that none of these have been required to go into isolation or been tested upon their return... 

I'd like to ask (Nigel Adams) about the mixed messages that those returning home are getting. At the weekend, a Government source told the Telegraph that a 14-week quarantine period would be introduced. When the Foreign Secretary (Dominic Raab) was asked, he simply said, 'I don't know'.

Yesterday, the Transport Secretary (Grant Shapps) wrote to MPs to tell us that targeted screening measures had been carried out at UK airports, but that these have now been stopped. This is really worrying, there are people entering the UK from countries where infection rates are rising, access to healthcare is limited and preventative measures are non-existent.

They are travelling back to their families on public transport, this is surely not sensible. We've discussed this several times, it is frustratingly one of the areas where we've been unable to make progress and the UK is now a major outlier on this.

[Honey Honey]

2 hours ago, Bluewolf said:

When you hear about things like this going on it's ridiculous and they have my sympathy... clearly shouldn't be on the list to order at all and should only be putting food and other essential items available for people to buy... 

I was also reading that the UK have repatriated over 1.3 Million people since the outbreak began with some 200,000 returning from Spain and another 50,000 from Australia in the last month alone, I am also aware that none of these have been required to go into isolation or been tested upon their return... 

I'd like to ask (Nigel Adams) about the mixed messages that those returning home are getting. At the weekend, a Government source told the Telegraph that a 14-week quarantine period would be introduced. When the Foreign Secretary (Dominic Raab) was asked, he simply said, 'I don't know'.

Yesterday, the Transport Secretary (Grant Shapps) wrote to MPs to tell us that targeted screening measures had been carried out at UK airports, but that these have now been stopped. This is really worrying, there are people entering the UK from countries where infection rates are rising, access to healthcare is limited and preventative measures are non-existent.

They are travelling back to their families on public transport, this is surely not sensible. We've discussed this several times, it is frustratingly one of the areas where we've been unable to make progress and the UK is now a major outlier on this.

It suggests we are sitting ducks for a second wave. I remember when it first started and they said if you have symptoms after visiting this very specific village in Italy then don't go outside. That was it. I also remember Mat Hancock saying that we arent shutting our borders because that only delays the virus by a day or two. 

I've mentioned a couple of times on here that some countries have shut their borders to visitors and any national coming back is taken from the airport straight to a quarantine hotel for 14 days. They can't go home. They can't see anyone. They're locked up. 

 

[Bluewolf]

8 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

I've mentioned a couple of times on here that some countries have shut their borders to visitors and any national coming back is taken from the airport straight to a quarantine hotel for 14 days. They can't go home. They can't see anyone. They're locked up. 

And those precautions are the right ones to take to stop any risk of a further outbreak or at the very least stop it spreading from those who have not been tested, They suggested that people that think they have it are not allowed to travel over here but with our lack of testing how many people do we think are going to be holding their hands up and saying " That's me" if they lose that chance to get back home?? probably none!! 

Still, If the Deputy Chief Medical Officer Jenny Harries is saying we are an 'International Exemplar in terms of Preparedness' then obviously things must be under control... 

[nudge]

An interesting article critical of the UK and USA in the Bangkok Post today.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1909696/contagion-death-rates-and-doses-of-arrogance

[Dr. Gonzo]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52475104

[Bluewolf]

58 minutes ago, nudge said:

An interesting article critical of the UK and USA in the Bangkok Post today.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1909696/contagion-death-rates-and-doses-of-arrogance

I do very sadly believe that it was not taken seriously over here and despite seeing what was going on everywhere else they still lacked any urgency in putting in place all the best measures to try and at least control the situation... I did meet Boris Johnson once ( not to speak to ) but as part of a tour of our site a couple of years back and he came across as someone who 'winged things' and although he seemed a very people orientated person he has left so much responsibility and decision making to people that clearly either can't cope or don't have the right skills to be in those roles.. 

This is not just down to him of course but a great many before him who have also helped erode services over the years and only when something like this happens does it show us up for what and where we are as a country... No Churchill "We will fight them on the beaches" best of British Bulldog spirit speeches are going to save us from hundreds more needless and unnecessary deaths.. 

I find it hard to say I am proud to be English when our country can be so badly run in it's time of need, so many politicians ducking and diving the serious questions and getting away with failed promises and poor lack of judgement... I wish it wasn't the case but it is.. 

[Bluewolf]

So with Care Home figures now included the total amount of deaths has risen to 26,097 with a reported 165,221 cases, That's higher than Spain now with 24,275 deaths and over 236,899 reported cases. Compare that to Germany who have very similar figure as the UK for reported cases of 160,943  but have managed to keep the death toll down to 6,376, 

[Stan]

4 minutes ago, Bluewolf said:

So with Care Home figures now included the total amount of deaths has risen to 26,097 with a reported 165,221 cases, That's higher than Spain now with 24,275 deaths and over 236,899 reported cases. Compare that to Germany who have very similar figure as the UK for reported cases of 160,943  but have managed to keep the death toll down to 6,376, 

Not sure on the 26,000 figure. It begs the question what is being reported as a COVID19 death or if it's been reported differently as expected? I thought the estimate was north of 40,000.

[Bluewolf]

5 minutes ago, Stan said:

Not sure on the 26,000 figure. It begs the question what is being reported as a COVID19 death or if it's been reported differently as expected? I thought the estimate was north of 40,000.

 

The UK coronavirus death toll has jumped to 26,097 after the Government started counting deaths in care homes and the wider community for the first time. Previously, the Government only counted people who had died in hospitals after testing positive for coronavirus. Yesterday, the official figure on hospital deaths stood at 21,678 – some 4,419 lower than today’s figure. Public Health England (PHE) has confirmed the new method of reporting includes an additional 3,811 deaths since the start of the outbreak. Of these, around 70% were outside hospital settings and around 30% were in hospital.

 

Knowing our Government and the way they apply counting of PPE it wouldn't surprise me if they were counting married couples deaths as 1 to keep the numbers down

 

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Bluewolf

[Stan]

Just now, Bluewolf said:

 

The UK coronavirus death toll has jumped to 26,097 after the Government started counting deaths in care homes and the wider community for the first time. Previously, the Government only counted people who had died in hospitals after testing positive for coronavirus. Yesterday, the official figure on hospital deaths stood at 21,678 – some 4,419 lower than today’s figure. Public Health England (PHE) has confirmed the new method of reporting includes an additional 3,811 deaths since the start of the outbreak. Of these, around 70% were outside hospital settings and around 30% were in hospital.

 

Knowing our Government and they way they apply counting of PPE it wouldn't surprise me if they were counting married couples deaths as 1 to keep the numbers down

 

 

Nothing surprises me with this government any more!

It's akin to 'creative accounting' in the finance industry. Shameful.

[nudge]

UK is not the only country with this issue... The same happened in Italy where people were dying at home or in care facilities and weren't included in the official death count. Spain doesn't include unconfirmed deaths in care facilities, and France similarly was recording fatalities in hospitals only. Wuhan also raised its death toll by 50% (additional 1290 cases) recently pretty much for the same reason - deaths outside hospitals have not previously been recorded. I'd say it's not intentional but rather the issue of collecting accurate data being quite challenging, and I'm sure there will be a lot of revisions done to the data retrospectively.

[Honey Honey]

2 hours ago, nudge said:

An interesting article critical of the UK and USA in the Bangkok Post today.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1909696/contagion-death-rates-and-doses-of-arrogance

I actually saw an article this morning criticising the lazy thinking in articles like that. Unfortunately I've searched but can't find it. I think it might have been in the Financial Times.

[nudge]

Just now, Harvsky said:

I actually saw an article this morning criticising the lazy thinking in articles like that. Unfortunately I've searched but can't find it. I think it might have been in the Financial Times.

That article caused an outrage among the local population of British expats in Thailand and neighbouring countries, so I guess it achieved its goal  

[Honey Honey]

Just now, nudge said:

That article caused an outrage among the local population of British expats in Thailand and neighbouring countries, so I guess it achieved its goal  

Haha yeah. It's a common take by the Guardian and anti-British identity outlets here.

[Honey Honey]

There's now 100 cases of unusual illness in children in 6 countries. Toxic shock and inflammation around the heart.

[nudge]

5 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

There's now 100 cases of unusual illness in children in 6 countries. Toxic shock and inflammation around the heart.

Kawasaki disease?

[Bluebird Hewitt]

1 hour ago, Harvsky said:

It suggests we are sitting ducks for a second wave. I remember when it first started and they said if you have symptoms after visiting this very specific village in Italy then don't go outside. That was it. I also remember Mat Hancock saying that we arent shutting our borders because that only delays the virus by a day or two. 

I've mentioned a couple of times on here that some countries have shut their borders to visitors and any national coming back is taken from the airport straight to a quarantine hotel for 14 days. They can't go home. They can't see anyone. They're locked up. 

It could be worse for us in Wales.

1. Test targets have been abandoned as 'we don't need to test that many a day' (despite promising the capacity of 5,000 tests a day by mid April) and the WHO constantly saying that we should test, test and test. England by comparison are trying to increase capacity as much as possible. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-52356767

Our Health Minister Vaughan Gething then says yesterday that 'more tests are significantly needed', but no targets are set as 'it's not helpful'. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-52463029

2. Two health boards in Wales (one of which has been under special measures since 2015) and haven't had many deaths each can't do basic maths, with the blame being caused as either 'a glitch in reporting' or using a different system altogether. One didn't provide figures for a whole month, while the other under reported until 24th April. This could start to make the death figures (and possibly others) unreliable. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-52439435

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-52458608

3. While we are fully aware of the lack of PPE available in the UK and we can all agree the UK Government should have taken action far earlier (I'll admit that I haven't watch the Panorama clip yet), Vaughan Gething said recently that we only had full PPE 'for a few days' last week. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-52370677

We've now had new PPE equipment delivered at Cardiff Airport. However, this asks one question. Considering that health and social care is devolved in Wales, why didn't our AM's order their own PPE supply, seeing as they've now done that? 

If questions are being asked of the UK Government, surely the same must be asked to the Welsh Government as well. 

4. On 6th April, Vaughan Gething had said that we had bought 1,035 ventilators as part of UK arrangements. However, we have since only distributed 171 ventilators and have 60 in reserve. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-52457010

While Vaughan Gething has tried to provide reassurances that if we need the full amount, we'll get it, it's concerning that we only have about a fifth of the amount available so far, especially if a second wave hit. There's also no guarantee that we'll get all of them if required now. 

5. Today, our First Minster Mark Drakeford announced that while England will test all residents and staff at care homes, NHS Wales will only provide tests to residents and staff that show symptoms as testing everyone will have 'no value' and 'diverts capacity'. This is despite the WHO saying to 'test, test, test' and our capacity only being 2,100 a day at present. When BBC asked the Welsh Government if they could speak to either the chief medical officer or chief scientific advisor, it was declined. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-52470272

This could cause more issues as if only those with symptoms are tested, many others could easily be infected by that point and most likely cause more unnecessary deaths. 

 

Instead, the Welsh Government appear to be more concerned about playing politics to gain political brownie points and 'getting one over the Tories in the UK Government', such as:

1. Our Education Minister Kirsty Williams announcing that schools will close in Wales by 'being the first' and 'leading the way', despite the UK Government due to announce school closures regardless. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51947148

2. Mark Drakeford announcing a week extension to the previous three week lockdown on the 8th April, despite a COBRA meeting taking place the following day with the four nations to review the current lockdown measures. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-52215421

Mark Drakeford then declares a week later that Wales will extend the lockdown for another three weeks. While all four UK nations agreed the extension, Mark Drakeford claimed that Dominic Raab's announcement to extend the lockdown was 'UK Government ministers catching up with his idea from last week'. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-52308604

This is despite the fact that the lockdown was always going to be extended, but Mark Drakeford simy wanted to 'be the first' and show 'Wales leading the way' for something clear and obvious again. 

3. While England's lockdown measures do not have regulations in regards to restricting exercise to once a day, Mark Drakeford has set the restriction and the police have the powers to issue fines for those who exercise more than once. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-52056337

This simply can't be enforced as you can't prove that someone has actually done exercise more than once a day. This goes back to the 'getting one over the UK Government' point by adding this restriction, but without actually thinking about it. 

4. Mark Drakeford has told employers to take all reasonable measures to ensure that staff are kept two metres apart at work or face possible fines which the police and council have the powers to do. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-52184794

While I understand the reasoning behind it, it has simply been rushed through and was pointed out by CBI Wales that it was to be implemented over a single weekend and without clear guidance until the last minute. 

This has even been criticised by the police, with all four Welsh chief constables objecting to it. While the Welsh Government has insisted that it's a last resort, 'the public would rather police enforce essential legislation rather than being factory inspectors'. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-52213177

5. Mark Drakeford has apparently been 'struggling' to engage with UK ministers in regards to a lockdown exit, yet apparently published a framework that the Conservative Welsh Secretary was unaware of, while the Wales Office Minister David TC Davies has said that while attending meetings with Michael Gove, there's always a Welsh Government representative at the meeting. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-52470579

 

It says a lot when a Nobel Prize-winning scientist has not only criticised the UK Government, but the Welsh Government as well, saying that 'while they are buying PPE from abroad, they have not used our own resources' and that no reply was received following a Cardiff University letter offering support, which they haven't fully denied and just distanced themselves from his remarks. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-52371941

 

Two more final points to make as well which kind of sums us up as a whole in Wales

1. During a virtual National Assembly meeting today and the lockdown restrictions being in place since March, the National Assembly had to approve it to keep it in force. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-52478690

It was voted overwhelmingly to endorse the lockdown. If someone could answer the point of the vote, please let me know. 

2. As part of an advisory to assist with Wales's recovery from the coronavirus crisis, they have appointed Gordon Brown (yes, that Gordon Brown) to advise on how Wales can operate in areas such as the NHS and transport after the lockdown is lifted. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-52468157

While it's noteworthy that he's doing it for free, I'm not hiding my breath over this. 

His first session is around the economy post coronavirus crisis. Good luck to Gordon Brown as the Welsh Government know what they're doing. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48757245

 

Don't be mistaken. This is not intended to be a defence of the UK government at all and fully accept they should have been quicker to react and should have also been more prepared.

However, what I'm trying to show here is that while the UK Government gets ripped to shreds over anything and criticised by devolved nations, the Welsh Labour Government (I had to highlight that bit) have done things just as bad (if not worse) while trying to play politics and take cheap shots instead of focusing at the task at hand (for example, when PPE was being provided to care homes staff in both England and Wales, Mark Drakeford mentioned that 'unlike in England, PPE is provided free in Wales'). If it was a Conservative run government, they would have been slaughtered like we're seeing now. 

Due to the lack of testing and basically not bothering to try and increase it substantially, claiming that there's 'no value' to test all care home residents and staff, the lack of PPE in general in line with the UK Government and that theWelsh Government appears more interested in making themselves look good (as well as Wales having more of an elderly population with more sickness levels and higher rates of poverty), I honestly think a stronger second wave could cripple us. 

And with that, I'm done. I'm not typing this up on a mobile again. 

[MUFC]

Are all the deaths really from this virus? Coroners aren't immune from making mistakes or even lying. Remember the case of Chloe Middleton, the 21 year old girl who died of coronavirus? She was widely reported as Britain's then youngest victim with "no underlying health issues" after the coroner recorded it as such but the hospital that treated her said she had never been tested and they didn't consider her to death to have been caused by Covid-19 or that she even had it.

[nudge]

On 24/04/2020 at 08:03, Mel81x said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/high-hopes-drug-for-covid-19-treatment-failed-in-full-trial

Not good news on the drug front.

Mixed results coming in from trials. 

The latest report on clinical trial in China also says it's ineffective: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31022-9/fulltext

Meanwhile, the US National Institutes of Health released preliminary data on their trial results saying it's effective: https://www.niaid.nih.gov/news-events/nih-clinical-trial-shows-remdesivir-accelerates-recovery-advanced-covid-19