Coronavirus (COVID-19) Outbreak

[Mpache]

Been offline a couple of days and today I find out that my friend is ill with COVID and hasn't been on in days. I hope she's OK...

[Dr. Gonzo]

I sort of stopped paying attention to the number of cases and deaths for a while. And then I saw it today... and it’s a bit staggering. I looked at the 2020 population of where I’m from & it’s dwarfed by the number of dead people in so many countries.

[Stan]

@...Dan @Harvsky how you guys feeling after your symptoms? Have you recovered fully or still feeling not 100%?

 

 

[Honey Honey]

8 minutes ago, Stan said:

@...Dan @Harvsky how you guys feeling after your symptoms? Have you recovered fully or still feeling not 100%?

 

 

Full recovery for myself thanks. 

[Stan]

England had no Covid-19 deaths in hospital for the first time yesterday since the pandemic began here. About time! 

[The Artful Dodger]

Deaths have been below average for some time now, there has been no corresponding increase in deaths following rises in infections either. Talk of more lockdowns is just absolute madness, people don't realise how bad this going to be soon. 

[Carnivore Chris]

Is there one rule for us and one for the police?

I say this, as 2 have just been in Sainsburys(those smaller stores) without a mask and then they went into subway after it without one. I thought masks were mandatory in these situations now?

 

 

[Stan]

Went Westfield today.

Surprised by amount of people that were wearing masks. Plenty of hand-sanitiser around and signage about wearing masks. Staff in shops were giving reminders about wearing masks.

 

What also surprised me though, however, was the only people I saw not wearing masks were black people. Not to say all black people weren't wearing masks, but those that weren't, were black. Reason it surprises me is because I thought they're most at risk of suffering once contracting COVID so I thought they'd be ones wearing masks and not wanting to take the risk?! 

[Honey Honey]

11 hours ago, Stan said:

Went Westfield today.

Surprised by amount of people that were wearing masks. Plenty of hand-sanitiser around and signage about wearing masks. Staff in shops were giving reminders about wearing masks.

What also surprised me though, however, was the only people I saw not wearing masks were black people. Not to say all black people weren't wearing masks, but those that weren't, were black. Reason it surprises me is because I thought they're most at risk of suffering once contracting COVID so I thought they'd be ones wearing masks and not wanting to take the risk?! 

Were they over 50? 

It's mainly young people I see not wearing masks. Like it is uncool to wear a mask or their makeup will get smudged on their way out so they won't wear one. Next generation as rampantly individualist as any, the planet is fucked 

[Stan]

8 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

Were they over 50? 

It's mainly young people I see not wearing masks. Like it is uncool to wear a mask or their makeup will get smudged on their way out so they won't wear one. Next generation as rampantly individualist as any, the planet is fucked 

Nope, parents and some elder folk! 

Saw quite a lot of younger folk (like myself ) and teens wearing masks.

Surprisingly the inability to queue in a socially distanced manner is still beyond the reach of some... 

[CaaC (John)+]

I don't have to wear a mask if I don't want to with my COPD, asthma etc so I make sure I carry an alert card with me and my pump(s) (asthma, COPD) just in case I am stopped by the police but funny enough I wear a mask but if the weather is hot by wearing a mask it makes it a lot harder for me breathing wise so I remove it.

Funny thing yesterday I was standing outside Tescos with my mask down just under my chin waiting for a taxi, a police car pulled out and 2 coppers got out to go inside Tescos, one of them looked at me with my mask around my neck and then stopped and said to his side-kick "Oh...hang on..." and he went back to his car and got 2 masks and they both put them on, I quipped in with a smile "You both should get asthma & COPD like me and you wouldn't have to wear a mask" they both just laughed and kept walking.  

Edited August 23, 2020 by CaaC (John)
Spelling corrections

[Stan]

 

[CaaC (John)+]

At least 13 people die in stampede, as police raid nightclub breaking coronavirus restrictions

Lima, Peru (CNN) - At least 13 people have been killed and three others injured in a stampede at a nightclub in Lima, Peru, as partygoers attempted to escape a police raid on the venue, according to Orlando Velasco Mujica, general of the Peruvian National Police.

Police were called to the Thomas Restobar in the Los Olivos district of Peru's capital city on Saturday evening to shut down an illegal party that more than 120 people were attending.

Social distancing measures are mandated in Peru, large social gatherings are banned and there is a nationwide 10 p.m. curfew in an effort to slow the spread of the coronavirus.

Peru was one of the first nations in the Americas to take strict preventative coronavirus measures, but is now one of the worst affected countries in Latin America, with more than 576,000 cases, according to figures from Johns Hopkins University. More than 27,000 have died of the virus so far, JHU reports.

In an official statement, the Ministry of the Interior reported that the police did not use "any type of weapon or tear gas to clear the premises." When people began to flee the 2nd-floor venue trying to get away from the police they were crushed on the stairs.

Police said in a statement they have started an investigation to identify the owners of the nightclub and those responsible for the event. Police said 23 people were arrested.

"The Ministry of the Interior profoundly regrets the deaths of 13 people as a consequence of the criminal irresponsibility of an unscrupulous business owner," the statement said.

Jimena de la Quintana reported from Lima, Daniel Silva Fernandez reported from Miami

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/23/americas/peru-nighclub-covid-stampede-intl-scli/index.html

[Mpache]

6 minutes ago, CaaC (John) said:

At least 13 people die in stampede, as police raid nightclub breaking coronavirus restrictions

Lima, Peru (CNN) - At least 13 people have been killed and three others injured in a stampede at a nightclub in Lima, Peru, as partygoers attempted to escape a police raid on the venue, according to Orlando Velasco Mujica, general of the Peruvian National Police.

Police were called to the Thomas Restobar in the Los Olivos district of Peru's capital city on Saturday evening to shut down an illegal party that more than 120 people were attending.

Social distancing measures are mandated in Peru, large social gatherings are banned and there is a nationwide 10 p.m. curfew in an effort to slow the spread of the coronavirus.

Peru was one of the first nations in the Americas to take strict preventative coronavirus measures, but is now one of the worst affected countries in Latin America, with more than 576,000 cases, according to figures from Johns Hopkins University. More than 27,000 have died of the virus so far, JHU reports.

In an official statement, the Ministry of the Interior reported that the police did not use "any type of weapon or tear gas to clear the premises." When people began to flee the 2nd-floor venue trying to get away from the police they were crushed on the stairs.

Police said in a statement they have started an investigation to identify the owners of the nightclub and those responsible for the event. Police said 23 people were arrested.

"The Ministry of the Interior profoundly regrets the deaths of 13 people as a consequence of the criminal irresponsibility of an unscrupulous business owner," the statement said.

Jimena de la Quintana reported from Lima, Daniel Silva Fernandez reported from Miami

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/23/americas/peru-nighclub-covid-stampede-intl-scli/index.html

This virus is the reason we are in the news so often these days and for all the wrong reasons  

[Carnivore Chris]

Got to love the British news though. Whenever they interview a southerner on tele, they are well spoken, well dressed, come across as intelligent...they interview people up north and they are wearing trackies, common as fuck, from some ran down estate...

[The Artful Dodger]

Started to get the train to work again, deserted when it would usually be rammed. How long can our transport infrastructure survive this? We're on the verge of a total collapse if we don't try to get society moving again. Never mind the fact we need more people to use public transport if we want to get anywhere near our carbon output targets.

I think a lot of people will look back with a lot of regret of how this has been handled, scaring people to death with hyperbole will only result in worse results down the road. Young, healthy people need to be back out working as normal now, taking the supposed risk away from those more at risk. The amount of things that rely on us just going back our daily business are immeasurable. So many people's livelihoods will be gone, I wouldn't be surprised if we have another Nazi party on the cards in Europe over the next decade, so great is the depression going to be. And for what? Human beings have always lived with risks and far greater ones than this virus represents, we need some fortitude now.

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Started to get the train to work again, deserted when it would usually be rammed. How long can our transport infrastructure survive this? We're on the verge of a total collapse if we don't try to get society moving again. Never mind the fact we need more people to use public transport if we want to get anywhere near our carbon output targets.

I think a lot of people will look back with a lot of regret of how this has been handled, scaring people to death with hyperbole will only result in worse results down the road. Young, healthy people need to be back out working as normal now, taking the supposed risk away from those more at risk. The amount of things that rely on us just going back our daily business are immeasurable. So many people's livelihoods will be gone, I wouldn't be surprised if we have another Nazi party on the cards in Europe over the next decade, so great is the depression going to be. And for what? Human beings have always lived with risks and far greater ones than this virus represents, we need some fortitude now.

The thing is plenty of young and low-risk people live with people who are at risk. We also don’t really know about all the long term effects of this, as well as the fact that some people (even old people) can be a symptomatic carriers and others can get a debilitating illness from them.

The shutdown/slowdown of society is something we’ve lived through before as a species, the response has been similar to the Spanish flu tbh. Mask mandates, closure of businesses, shit like that.

It’s easy to say “we need to get things back up and running for the economy” - but really, the economy isn’t going to function normally as a highly infectious disease spreads and bodies keep piling up.

It’s not an easy situation to deal with. Ultimately, no matter how you slice it, the impact of covid - regardless of policy - is going to hurt a lot of people either economically or just because it’s a public health crisis. And it’s going to disproportionately hit the working class the hardest.

[tlr]

2 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Started to get the train to work again, deserted when it would usually be rammed. How long can our transport infrastructure survive this? We're on the verge of a total collapse if we don't try to get society moving again. Never mind the fact we need more people to use public transport if we want to get anywhere near our carbon output targets.

I think a lot of people will look back with a lot of regret of how this has been handled, scaring people to death with hyperbole will only result in worse results down the road. Young, healthy people need to be back out working as normal now, taking the supposed risk away from those more at risk. The amount of things that rely on us just going back our daily business are immeasurable. So many people's livelihoods will be gone, I wouldn't be surprised if we have another Nazi party on the cards in Europe over the next decade, so great is the depression going to be. And for what? Human beings have always lived with risks and far greater ones than this virus represents, we need some fortitude now.

It concerns me. Trains and buses are still deserted around here, peaks have practically disappeared and the only real flow that seems left is local leisure stuff into the big cities for a couple of hours a day, but that'll go once schools are back and the weather turns for autumn. We've had months of the government telling everyone to walk, drive or don't bother, only recently has that narrative changed, but even now it is more of a reluctant concession than proactive endorsement. All the while they are underwriting the whole thing, which'll be well into nine figures by now. We've spent decades building up to where public transport coverage and usage we were in February. At present, I doubt we'll get it back for decades, people have every excuse they need to avoid us altogether now and the finances will snap eventually.

It's not just those of us currently employed that I'm worried for, all the projects now on their knees - HS2 and not - had thousands of jobs and millions for the ecenomy riding on them. The longer we're like this, the closer those'll come to vanishing.

Edited August 25, 2020 by tlr

[The Artful Dodger]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The thing is plenty of young and low-risk people live with people who are at risk. We also don’t really know about all the long term effects of this, as well as the fact that some people (even old people) can be a symptomatic carriers and others can get a debilitating illness from them.

The shutdown/slowdown of society is something we’ve lived through before as a species, the response has been similar to the Spanish flu tbh. Mask mandates, closure of businesses, shit like that.

It’s easy to say “we need to get things back up and running for the economy” - but really, the economy isn’t going to function normally as a highly infectious disease spreads and bodies keep piling up.

It’s not an easy situation to deal with. Ultimately, no matter how you slice it, the impact of covid - regardless of policy - is going to hurt a lot of people either economically or just because it’s a public health crisis. And it’s going to disproportionately hit the working class the hardest.

The Spanish Flu was a catastrophic illness and far more lethal than this disease. Coming right off the back of the first world war, it ravaged an already dehabilitated society but I'm not sure society stopped like it is doing here. People carried on, I see no reason that healthy people should be quarantining now, it makes no sense.

In Europe infections are rising but serious illness is not, there is growing evidence that this disease will become like the Cold/Flu another disease which we have to live with. It's not nice but we are human beings, being alive is a risk. I think some people want us to have 100% certainty they won't get ill before doing anything, that's not going to happen. Now that's not to dismiss people's concerns, of course we should be protecting the vulnerable (I wouldn't require anyone with a health condition or who lives with someone with one, to return to work etc) but the rest of us should be prepared to take a bit of the strain here. We need to keep things going otherwise there are going to very serious repercussions and may lead to far more death than we are seeing now. If the depression is as big as the 1920s then I guarantee you we will see a return to far right/far left politics in Europe. We were already heading that way, a massive depression will just tip it over. 

I don't mean to sound crude, I absolutely respect people's worries but I fear the 'cure' is going to be just as bad as the disease. We fucked up at the beginning (I hold my hands up in being as much of a fool as anyone) but I don't see any forward thinking now. Why haven't we got a quicker testing? If we could test results in a hour or so it would revolutionise what we could do.

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by The Artful Dodger

[RandoEFC+]

I do think that idiots saying early on that it was a hoax and just the flu and didn't want the economy shut down have now inadvertently caused exactly what they wanted to avoid because by introducing a "debate" over the realities of this virus the hyperbole pretty much became necessary to make sure people got the point about staying at home and social distancing and so on.

You can't pursue a zero-covid strategy in the UK like you can in New Zealand or the Isle of Man. There are too many people around who want to achieve a zero risk approach to things like schools reopening, border controls, etc. You can't achieve this. You have to balance the economy and public health because without a population that's protected from the virus the economy dies and without a functioning economy, people start becoming destitute and dying anyway, and how do you fund the NHS.

The UK have fucked this up really badly and it all stems from locking down too late. By waiting until the virus was more rampant before submitting to the lockdown philosophy, not only did more people die, but it led to a higher peak in the number of cases, which means a longer lockdown and more economic damage. Now so many people are really struggling to get out of the killer virus mindset. Nobody is doubting the danger of this virus but people are absolutely convinced that it's more infectious than it really is, more dangerous than it really is and that it's killed more people than it actually has.

[Dr. Gonzo]

10 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

The Spanish Flu was a catastrophic illness and far more lethal than this disease. Coming right off the back of the first world war, it ravaged an already dehabilitated society but I'm not sure society stopped like it is doing here. People carried on, I see no reason that healthy people should be quarantining now, it makes no sense.

In Europe infections are rising but serious illness is not, there is growing evidence that this disease will become like the Cold/Flu another disease which we have to live with. It's not nice but we are human beings, being alive is a risk. I think some people want us to have 100% certainty they won't get ill before doing anything, that's not going to happen. Now that's not to dismiss people's concerns, of course we should be protecting the vulnerable (I wouldn't require anyone with a health condition or who lives with someone with one, to return to work etc) but the rest of us should be prepared to take a bit of the strain here. We need to keep things going otherwise there are going to very serious repercussions and may lead to far more death than we are seeing now. If the depression is as big as the 1930s then I guarantee you we will see a return to far right/far left politics in Europe. We were already heading that way, a massive depression will just tip it over. 

I don't mean to sound crude, I absolutely respect people's worries but I fear the 'cure' is going to be just as bad as the disease. We fucked up at the beginning (I hold my hands up in being as much of a fool as anyone) but I don't see any forward thinking now. Why haven't we got a quicker testing? If we could test results in a hour or so it would revolutionise what we could do.

 

I agree with you on most points there, and I don’t understand the state of testing and contact tracing.

I think a big part of the problem in the UK is this has proven to be a tough issue for even competent governments in Europe. We don’t have a competent government, we’ve got government by fumbling around and passing off blame to literally anyone but the people in charge.

And yeah I think it’s a virus we’re going to be living with forever like the flu. And we’ll have some years with bad coronavirus strains like we’ve got with flus. Also I think your worry about a far right rising is legitimate, and tbh I don’t think we’ve been very far away, covid or not. We’ve seen a rise of right wing nationalists worldwide before the virus spread. But yeah, I’m sure the inevitable economic downturn won’t help on that front

[Honey Honey]

The economics is quite complex. If we're to open up for that sake I'd hope it's based on analysis of monetary policy and central banking tools rather than a hunch that everything will be a disaster.

[Honey Honey]

Also, the notion that if you're healthy it's fine is wrong.

My 59 year old mother was perfectly healthy. She has barely been able to walk for 5 months. An estimated 500,000 people in the UK have long term complications from COVID. The vast majority were never in need of hospitalisation. 

What's the economic ramifications of letting healthy people get fucked and their friends and relatives then cautiously withdraw from a libertarian society? You end up right back where you started from but with opinion polls going crackers.

[The Artful Dodger]

14 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

Also, the notion that if you're healthy it's fine is wrong.

My 59 year old mother was perfectly healthy. She has barely been able to walk for 5 months. An estimated 500,000 people in the UK have long term complications from COVID. The vast majority were never in need of hospitalisation. 

What's the economic ramifications of letting healthy people get fucked and their friends and relatives then cautiously withdraw from a libertarian society? You end up right back where you started from but with opinion polls going crackers.

I didn't say if you're healthy you are fine, but the chance of serious illness is incredibly low as numerous studies show. 

The idea that worrying about the economic impact of this all is 'libertarian's is nonsense, I despise the likes of Delingpole all that mob as much as anyone, but we cannot carry on like this. Whole towns/cities will have great chunks of unemployed people. We have been brought up to think life has no risk, healthy, young people should be shouldering the risk here. Cowering inside only prolongs this. It's not going away, it's fanciful to think it will. We've got ourselves into something we may never recover from. With social distancing in place, masks commonplace I do not see why we should not be operating at 75% capacity in most places. As it stands, the UK will have not only the worst death rate in Europe but also the worst economic impact. It's a complete catastrophe.

Edited August 26, 2020 by The Artful Dodger

[Honey Honey]

53 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I didn't say if you're healthy you are fine, but the chance of serious illness is incredibly low as numerous studies show. 

The idea that worrying about the economic impact of this all is 'libertarian's is nonsense, I despise the likes of Delingpole all that mob as much as anyone, but we cannot carry on like this. Whole towns/cities will have great chunks of unemployed people. We have been brought up to think life has no risk, healthy, young people should be shouldering the risk here. Cowering inside only prolongs this. It's not going away, it's fanciful to think it will. We've got ourselves into something we may never recover from. With social distancing in place, masks commonplace I do not see why we should not be operating at 75% capacity in most places. As it stands, the UK will have not only the worst death rate in Europe but also the worst economic impact. It's a complete catastrophe.

What capacity are we at now? Based on what?Why 75%? What does that actually mean? Who does that benefit? What sectors? What industries? What are the fiscal alternatives for those sectors? What are the monetary requirements and options for the sectors credit lines in varied scenarios? What shape is that sectors forecasted recovery in varies scenarios? How long can any fiscal or monetary policy hold in that sector before needing a new round?

I never said worrying about the economy is liberatarian. Its the idea of what the economy needs that I said is libertarian. The reason it is mainly liberatarians is because they are the group whose philosophy overrides bothering to go into detail.