Chelsea Discussion

[LFCMadLad]

2 hours ago, Cicero said:

Not having any of that.

Everyone and their dog who views Chelsea as a footballing rival have now suddenly become experts in Russian politics overnight, and its been shoved profusely down our throats that Roman is 100% in Putin's pocket and is somehow benefiting from this invasion considering his shares in military steel. 

This news has undoubtedly rustled a few narratives and agendas in that regard, when really all it took to see that Roman wanted no part in this was the fact he is Ukrainian born to Ukrainian parents. 

Really? There is no helping you. 

A Roman fanboy despite all the irrefutable evidence against him. 

You are sad, you really are.

[Cicero]

3 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think more people assumed that Putin was in Roman's pocket tbh.

Even if he's been poisoned, there's nothing that can separate Roman Abramovich from Putin. From introducing Putin to Boris Yeltsin, to handpicking his cabinet and "right hand man" - he's been a key Putin ally up until getting poisoned.

US intelligence is also expressing doubt that he's been exposed to poison... so it could all just be bullshit.

There's no denying the relationship between Roman and Putin. That wasn't my point. My point was that because of this relationship, it created the nonsensical assumption Roman was supporting Putin for the invasion due to his shares in military steel, which was and remains to be completely baseless.  

It's incredibly convenient to swallow everything negative against him and regurgitate anything positive. For example people are preferring to believe Roman faked his own assassination over him providing all the proceeds to Ukrainian families. No thought what so ever to what he's done during the COVID pandemic. There's been so much published on Roman over the years its hard to figure out what's actually true, particularly when some of these publications were contested and won in court by Roman. Such as his ties to the Russian Mafia, Putin's influence on him purchasing Chelsea, and his intimidation tactics on Berozovsky. 

I wouldn't doubt it not being poison considering their symptoms weren't even that severe. Although, a Russian based agency is the one that broke the news to Reuters saying they weren't poisoned. 

 

Edit: He's now working on humanitarian corridors and bringing other nations to talks. Evident he is using his influence as well as he can. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Cicero

[OrangeKhrush]

9 hours ago, Cicero said:

There's no denying the relationship between Roman and Putin. That wasn't my point. My point was that because of this relationship, it created the nonsensical assumption Roman was supporting Putin for the invasion due to his shares in military steel, which was and remains to be completely baseless.  

It's incredibly convenient to swallow everything negative against him and regurgitate anything positive. For example people are preferring to believe Roman faked his own assassination over him providing all the proceeds to Ukrainian families. No thought what so ever to what he's done during the COVID pandemic. There's been so much published on Roman over the years its hard to figure out what's actually true, particularly when some of these publications were contested and won in court by Roman. Such as his ties to the Russian Mafia, Putin's influence on him purchasing Chelsea, and his intimidation tactics on Berozovsky. 

I wouldn't doubt it not being poison considering their symptoms weren't even that severe. Although, a Russian based agency is the one that broke the news to Reuters saying they weren't poisoned. 

 

Edit: He's now working on humanitarian corridors and bringing other nations to talks. Evident he is using his influence as well as he can. 

I would concur that Roman has done deals with the state which is not illegal, he has received past benefits from Putin but would agree that Romans involvement in the present is disputed and until th ere is a causal nexus linking Roman to Russia's war, it is a bit like discrimination.

[LFCMike]

Stop calling him Roman like he's your mate

[LFCMadLad]

31 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

Stop calling him Roman like he's your mate

Well these two seem to know all the ins and outs of Romans business deals and how he came to gain his fortune through fair play and Putins generosity. 

[OrangeKhrush]

2 hours ago, LFCMike said:

Stop calling him Roman like he's your mate

Sorry that offended you.  Mr Abramovich will be used in the future along with referring to every footballer as Mr (surname) in the future.

2 hours ago, LFCMadLad said:

Well these two seem to know all the ins and outs of Romans business deals and how he came to gain his fortune through fair play and Putins generosity. 

It is quite the opposite,  there are people that are living off an allegation which unless it is proven to be proximate cause,  is unfounded and discriminant.    The mere fact he has done deals with the government is the past is not enough,  it needs to be proven that he knew Putin was going to invade and was complicit with it.   

It will be impossible to prove he knew that steel and materials sold in the early 2000's would become tools in an invasion some 15 odd years later.   They must prove he knew first hand that Putin was planning an invasion.   The onus of proof is on those alleging so good luck with that.  Even if he just goes up and states he doesn't know nor was he involved in putin's inner caucus it is enough to get absolution from the fact. 

Nobody here is condoning what Putin is doing,  but perpetuating wrongs in a misplaced sense of "justice" is also not condonable.   Until it is proven he has cohorted with Putin,  this is just a witch hunt.   Russians that have nothing to do with this are now treated like german people were after world war 2. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by OrangeKhrush

[Dr. Gonzo]

Yes I’m sure the oligarchs had no idea what they were doing as they looted Russia 

[Cicero]

Whilst Roman was busy looting Russia, he simultaneously joined the peace talks. What a Multi Tasker.  

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Cicero said:

Whilst Roman was busy looting Russia, he simultaneously joined the peace talks. What a Multi Tasker.  

 

Yes, because the two things happened simultaneously...  - and let's not pretend he's doing this out of the goodness of his heart, he's doing it because he's got billions at stake.

Sportswashing absolutely works, holy shit.

[RandoEFC+]

A few people in this thread wilfully ignoring the years of Putin stealing from the Russian people to make himself one of the richest men in the world, along with his inner circle of oligarchs.

Great that Abramovich is using his wealth and influence right now on humanitarian causes and pushing for a peaceful solution. It doesn't mean he didn't have close ties to Putin when he was only starting out on the path that led him to poisoning dissenting voices, imprisoning opposing politicians, helping to fix an election in Belarus and invading Syria and Ukraine.

There's a range of middle positions between "all of the things Putin does are automatically Abramovich's fault" and "some of the things Abramovich has been accused of are yet to be proven so he's probably a proper sound lad".

[Dr. Gonzo]

9 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

There's a range of middle positions between "all of the things Putin does are automatically Abramovich's fault" and "some of the things Abramovich has been accused of are yet to be proven so he's probably a proper sound lad".

I don't even think anyone's said that about Abramovich here.

We obviously will never know the extent of their relationship, but I think it's evident that ties between Abramovich and Putin have at least deteriorated a bit. The sanctions after 2014 led Abramovich to get Israeli citizenship & even more recently, he's bought Portuguese citizenship. He's concerned with keeping his access to the wealth he's acquired - Putin's more concerned with acting like a Tsar and rebuilding Russia's empire/sphere of influence.

I don't think Abramovich's past and his role in making Russia what it is today can be immediately wiped clear because he's trying to find a solution that brings peace. Sure it's great he's using his position of power and influence to do that, even to the point where Putin and his closer allies have sent a message to him by poisoning him. But Abramovich hadn't really shown any issues with Putin's rule over Russia in any sense until the first invasion of Ukraine (Crimea's annexation) caused financial issues and restricted his ability to enter the UK.

Personally, I think Abramovich is trying to transition from oligarch to something of a stateman. Russia's economic woes won't end with the end of this conflict, as long as Putin is in power it's likely there will be strong sanctions on Russia. Growing discontent with Putin from the oligarchs is to be expected and I think there will be a push to have Putin sooner rather than later. Arguably the most influential oligarch in the era of Russian oligarchs, asked by Ukraine's leader to negotiate for Russian interests is a threat to the Putin's control, which is why he's probably poisoned him to send a message.

[OrangeKhrush]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yes I’m sure the oligarchs had no idea what they were doing as they looted Russia 

You mean how the oligarchs of western super powers don't extort political corruption for power.   that is not the point of the discussion though. 

[Cicero]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yes, because the two things happened simultaneously...  - and let's not pretend he's doing this out of the goodness of his heart, he's doing it because he's got billions at stake.

Sportswashing absolutely works, holy shit.

Versus pretending to think a Ukrainian born citizen, born to Ukrainian parents, who's being worked as a mediator due to his connections with Ukrainian nationalists, only has his billions on his mind and zero empathy towards those that are suffering. I suppose Roman only had billions on his mind too when he made those donations during the COVID pandemic, but I would assume that classifies as Sportswashing as it doesn't fit your narrative. 

Come on mate. 

22 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

A few people in this thread wilfully ignoring the years of Putin stealing from the Russian people to make himself one of the richest men in the world, along with his inner circle of oligarchs.

Great that Abramovich is using his wealth and influence right now on humanitarian causes and pushing for a peaceful solution. It doesn't mean he didn't have close ties to Putin when he was only starting out on the path that led him to poisoning dissenting voices, imprisoning opposing politicians, helping to fix an election in Belarus and invading Syria and Ukraine.

There's a range of middle positions between "all of the things Putin does are automatically Abramovich's fault" and "some of the things Abramovich has been accused of are yet to be proven so he's probably a proper sound lad".

I reiterate to what I argued with Fairy in Boots pages back, what do you know of Roman that is actually 100% factual? There is so much written about him its tough to take a grasp on what is actually true. When publications such as him having connections with the Russian Mafia, Putin's influence on him buying Chelsea Football Club, and his alleged intimidations tactics on Berozovsky were all challenged and won in court by Roman, this gives a whole new level on Trial by Media. 

Now just to make this abundantly clear because the Liverpool lot on here love to make false interpretations, this does not mean I am against the sanctions. Abramovich is part of the ruling system that has supported Putin for best part of 30 years and brought him to power. He's 100% to blame. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, OrangeKhrush said:

You mean how the oligarchs of western super powers don't extort political corruption for power.   that is not the point of the discussion though. 

Yeah maybe look into the modern history of Russia. We've got issues with corruption, but it's not anywhere quite so brazen as what happened after the fall of the USSR. And that was literally people stealing from former state-run industries that theoretically belonged to every Russian.

And it is the point of discussion when you consider how Russian oligarchs have their ties to Putin... 

[OrangeKhrush]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah maybe look into the modern history of Russia. We've got issues with corruption, but it's not anywhere quite so brazen as what happened after the fall of the USSR. And that was literally people stealing from former state-run industries that theoretically belonged to every Russian.

And it is the point of discussion when you consider how Russian oligarchs have their ties to Putin... 

It's a communist state,  the balance of power is in the state.   I am shocked

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Versus pretending to think a Ukrainian born citizen, born to Ukrainian parents, who's being worked as a mediator due to his connections with Ukrainian nationalists, only has his billions on his mind and zero empathy towards those that are suffering.

He's not a Ukrainian citizen? He's a Russian citizen, born in Russia, also he's a Russian born Israeli citizen and a Russian born Portuguese citizen. He might have historic ethnic ties to Ukraine, but really his strongest connection to Ukraine is that he's mates with Shevchenko. He barely grew up around his immediate family.

In all seriousness, I don't think he's got much empathy - nor do I think you can live the life he's led with much empathy. Much of his most empathetic actions come from his support of the Jewish community worldwide, yet he's a big sponsor of the illegal settlements that displace Palestinians the same way Russians displaced his ancestors. I think that demonstrates a huge lack of empathy tbh.

Like I said, it's good he's trying to end the war - even though I think his motives are simply "my former political ally has now made my life harder" - but it doesn't wash away his role in shaping Russia into what it is today.

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

It's a communist state,  the balance of power is in the state.   I am shocked

It wasn't a communist state when the oligarchs took over Russia's industry, but I'm not shocked you're failing to see my point tbh. Russia in the 90s was very much a kleptocracy and that's how Russia's elite became Russia's elite.

[RandoEFC+]

12 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Versus pretending to think a Ukrainian born citizen, born to Ukrainian parents, who's being worked as a mediator due to his connections with Ukrainian nationalists, only has his billions on his mind and zero empathy towards those that are suffering. I suppose Roman only had billions on his mind too when he made those donations during the COVID pandemic, but I would assume that classifies as Sportswashing as it doesn't fit your narrative. 

Come on mate. 

I reiterate to what I argued with Fairy in Boots pages back, what do you know of Roman that is actually 100% factual? There is so much written about him its tough to take a grasp on what is actually true. When publications such as him having connections with the Russian Mafia, Putin's influence on him buying Chelsea Football Club, and his alleged intimidations tactics on Berozovsky were all challenged and won in court by Roman, this gives a whole new level on Trial by Media. 

Now just to make this abundantly clear because the Liverpool lot on here love to make false interpretations, this does not mean I am against the sanctions. Abramovich is part of the ruling system that has supported Putin for best part of 30 years and brought him to power. He's 100% to blame. 

I think this is fair. I won't pretend to be an expert, and I dont think any of us can make an accurate list of true and false things, but somewhere between 0% and 100% of the alleged stuff is true and that's enough to reach the same conclusion as you've stated at the end here.

[Cicero]

15 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

He's not a Ukrainian citizen? He's a Russian citizen, born in Russia, also he's a Russian born Israeli citizen and a Russian born Portuguese citizen. He might have historic ethnic ties to Ukraine, but really his strongest connection to Ukraine is that he's mates with Shevchenko. He barely grew up around his immediate family.

In all seriousness, I don't think he's got much empathy - nor do I think you can live the life he's led with much empathy. Much of his most empathetic actions come from his support of the Jewish community worldwide, yet he's a big sponsor of the illegal settlements that displace Palestinians the same way Russians displaced his ancestors. I think that demonstrates a huge lack of empathy tbh.

Like I said, it's good he's trying to end the war - even though I think his motives are simply "my former political ally has now made my life harder" - but it doesn't wash away his role in shaping Russia into what it is today.

Fair enough mate. Agree to disagree. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

44 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Fair enough mate. Agree to disagree. 

I mean I think we both agree on the last bit - Abramovich can't suddenly wash his hands of his role in modern day Russia just from his participation in peace talks. We just disagree on what we think is going on in Abramovich's head.

And honestly, neither of us can really know how much empathy Abramovich really has at all. Personally, I think he's self-interested because... well the history of him as a person is someone who's very self-interested... and out of all the oligarchs in Russia, I think it makes sense for him to be trying to "re-brand" as more of a statesman - I think in Russia's not-to-distant future the writing is on the wall for Putin and there will be something of a power-struggle for a "new Russia." As arguably the most influential of their oligarchs, he'd represent someone that understands and will protect oligarch interests - and as someone with governmental experience in Russia & now acting as a diplomat... I think it gives him stronger credentials for having a strong say in directing the future of this "new Russia" if not assuming a leadership role himself.

Cos I think there's going to be a reckoning between the oligarchs & Russia's current government - for as long as Putin remains, they won't have full access and enjoyment of their assets.

And if Abramovich ends up making a difference in bringing peace between Russia and Ukraine that can hold... and even has a part in regime change in Russia... that's all very commendable. I hope he's successful. But... it still won't wash his hands of shaping the country into what it is today.

[Bluewolf]

On 28/03/2022 at 19:25, Bluewolf said:

Maybe Putin was not all that impressed with Abramovich taking part at all?? 

 

On 28/03/2022 at 19:37, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think it's that.

Putin's come to expect his oligarchs to fall in line - he's even made pretty open threats against them. I don't think he likes that Abramovich has been keen to speak on behalf of Russia at Zelensky's request.

The Russian state media has been ordered to cancel any mentions of Roman Abramovich from their coverage of peace negotiations, it was claimed today.

 

The move to write the oligarch out of TV and news agency reports comes after evidence that he had been “poisoned” with a chemical war agent. The revelation on blanking Abramovich - for years seen as having links to Vladimir Putin, 69, and sanctioned by Britain and the EU over the war, triggering the attempted sale of Chelsea FC - come from Russia ’s leading woman opposition politician Ksenia Sobchak, also a prominent TV and web journalist .

The compliant state media in Russia are often issued orders from the Kremlin about what they can and cannot report. “The pro-Kremlin media were forbidden to mention the role of businessman Roman Abramovich in the negotiations between Russia and Ukraine,” said Sobchak's Telegram channel.

Russian state media 'cancel' Roman Abramovich after Chelsea owner 'poisoned' (msn.com)

Edited March 30, 2022 by Bluewolf

[Bluewolf]

In other news... looks like this bidding process is getting messy with some now saying it may not be announced until the end of April and bidders have been asked not to go public with comments.. some are saying that the Ricketts have had an unfair advantage over other bidders and look like they may be the frontrunners... 

The bidding process to buy Chelsea football club could descend into farce with rival groups furious with what they perceive to be preferential treatment towards the Ricketts family’s bid, according to reports.

After being sanctioned by the UK government over his ties to Russian President Vladimir Putin, Roman Abramovich enlisted US merchant bank Raine Group to oversee the sale of the west London club he has owned since 2003.

Raine received a host of offers but whittled it down to a four-strong shortlist which features controversial prospective owners the Ricketts family, as well as consortiums led by Todd Boehly, Sir Martin Broughton and Stephen Pagliuca.

It had briefly appeared as though the Ricketts bid would not make the final cut, having received a backlash from supporters when anti-Muslim comments from the family’s patriarch, Joe, resurfaced.

But not only did the Ricketts family’s bid get through to the next stage of the selection process, The Times claims rival bidding groups fear the owners of the Chicago Cubs are now the preferred choice of Raine to buy Chelsea.

One of the shortlisted consortiums even feel rules of the bidding process might have been ‘breached’ after Chelsea chairman Bruce Buck set up a meeting between Tom Ricketts and Paul Canoville.

They are also getting the growing feeling that the Ricketts are the preferred choice of buyer and are increasingly ‘nervous’ about their chances of winning the race to buy Chelsea due to the pre-existing, strong business relationship that already exists between the family and Raine Group.

[Cicero]

There does seem to be a conflict of interest considering Raine Group and Ricketts have pre-existing business relations.

1 hour ago, Bluewolf said:

 

One of the shortlisted consortiums even feel rules of the bidding process might have been ‘breached’ after Chelsea chairman Bruce Buck set up a meeting between Tom Ricketts and Paul Canoville.

 

Canners actually made a comment about this on twitter:

"Today you will have seen an article in the Daily Mirror about my meeting with potential owners of Chelsea FC. I have not and will not give any personal endorsement to any bid. The vile and racist abuse I have received this afternoon has shocked and upset me. I won't be making any further comments". 

Disgusting. 

[Emma]

Do you think Tuchel will replace mount with Gallagher or do you think mount will continue to have a key role at chels. I have the same q w Southgates plans

[Waylander]

For me they are different players.

I see Gallagher as a box to box midfielder and Mount as an attacking midfielder.

So they might play together in different positions or they may only in different tactical set ups where the other is not playing.

Depends on what system the manager employs and also how he sees Galllager fitting into the team.