Chelsea Discussion

[The Liquidator]

1 hour ago, Cicero said:

Here's an idea, how about the board actually get the players Conte wants? 

In a system where we are so dependant on our wingbacks, we were foolish to go into the season relying on Alonso and Moses despite their limitations. 

Your words do have some substance, however, from what we are lead to believe this manager knew what kind of transfer policy he was signing under. Cant start blaming that policy when it was agreed and I dont think its the board who lost us our CF.

The loss of Costa, no matter I agreed at the time, is the biggest reason why we have lost more games this season and that is down to this manager not being able to handle him.

And lets not forget, he got his chosen replacement in Morata. Someone he has turned on of late.

Edited January 25, 2018 by The Liquidator

[Cicero]

41 minutes ago, The Liquidator said:

Your words do have some substance, however, from what we are lead to believe this manager knew what kind of transfer policy he was signing under. Cant start blaming that policy when it was agreed and I dont think its the board who lost us our CF.

The loss of Costa, no matter I agreed at the time, is the biggest reason why we have lost more games this season and that is down to this manager not being able to handle him.

And lets not forget, he got his chosen replacement in Morata. Someone he has turned on of late.

The board didn't lose us our CF, they just failed to adequately strengthen the team even though we had 4 months to do so. Fail to prepare,  prepare to fail. 

I'm fairly certain Conte understood his role, but I'm also fairly certain that he didn't expect the board to completely ignore his targets and instead spend huge amounts of money on bang average players. 

 

To be honest, I'm coming to a point where I want the 3 at the back to vanish all together.  I'd like to see this back 4. 

Palmieri---Rudiger---Christensen---Azpiliceta

Courtois

 

 

Edited January 25, 2018 by Cicero

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, The Liquidator said:

Yes Really.

Sorry, you are not someone i would want to waste my time on explaining what I know & feel about my club.

[carefreeluke]

I have to agree with @The Liquidator. I don't want Conte sacked far from it just to be clear.

Conte knew what he was signing up to, he also spoke to Ancelotti and others before taking the job and he's sounding like a broken record. He's always made clear from the very start that the club have the final say with regards to transfers but he definitely has more influence than he is letting on at the moment. Fans are quick to pinpoint individuals in a club's hierarchy but it's a mutual game really, it's down to the manager, scouts, the board members, agents associated to the club etc. Conte has influence there's no doubt about that, there's no doubt that the club work with him to find players that fits the profile for the manager, Emenalo's role was always to work with the manager for example. The chase for Llorente and Dzeko in my mind comes from Conte wanting a striker of that profile and we've been buying more players from the Italian market compared to previous years under Roman which suggests Conte is having some influence as he would know these players, this is being assumptive though which is the mistake too many of us make when talking about the club's hierarchy and business.

I just think the board at the moment with financial fair play, the new stadium and a change in policy (which has been in place well before Conte got here) have more limitations now (more than ever in the Roman era) and it's more difficult to work within those limitations. This isn't 2004 where our spending seemed to have no limits. Marina in her negotiations (there's no way she's choosing the players to buy as some Chelsea fans would have you assume) can only work with a certain budget and instructions that come from the Big Man himself.

I'll say one thing though, it isn't that we're not spending money, it's who we're choosing to buy that's the problem and until we have sufficient evidence pointing at someone to put it down to, it's best to look at the club as a whole and put the blame there. I blame Roman, Conte, the scouting network, Marina, everyone, this is a mutual affair. I don't like how people pinpoint and blame certain individuals when there's little or no evidence to back it up.

This post isn't aimed at anyone on here by the way.

Edited January 26, 2018 by carefreeluke

[Lucas]

Whoever's decision it was to sell Matic should be the one on the chopping block. That was, and remains, the key loss for me.

[Cicero]

Just now, Lucas said:

Whoever's decision it was to sell Matic should be the one on the chopping block. That was, and remains, the key loss for me.

How so? 

[The Liquidator]

45 minutes ago, Cicero said:

The board didn't lose us our CF, they just failed to adequately strengthen the team even though we had 4 months to do so. Fail to prepare,  prepare to fail. 

I'm fairly certain Conte understood his role, but I'm also fairly certain that he didn't expect the board to completely ignore his targets and instead spend huge amounts of money on bang average players. 

 

To be honest, I'm coming to a point where I want the 3 at the back to vanish all together.  I'd like to see this back 4. 

Palmieri---Rudiger---Christensen---Azpiliceta

Courtois

 

 

The board got him who he wanted to replace Costa. It's the one thing we can be certain of. I can not sit hear and defend the board on other players missed & brought in, however, the manager signed up to this & cant start bleeting when those players do not settle quickly enough to help him.

I understand the call to return to a back four, but for me this isnt where the manager or team are failing. The experiment of Hazard in the middle has gone on for far too long and his unwillingness to test Mitchy from the start in the bigger games has not only set us back, but also the youngster himself. His decision to start Fabregas in far too many games where his legs become a player for us to carry and only of late using Willian and Pedro far more often, are also poor team decisions.

We will see what happens, but for me I am sick n tired of his excuses and attitude when facing the media.

[Lucas]

46 minutes ago, Cicero said:

How so? 

I don't see as much dominance in midfield without him and for me this is the key area on the pitch. This is where you win football matches.

Matic is a phenominal build, tall, big, powerful, imposing and deceivably quick. He's very good at what he does. Probably underrated infact. Bakayoko has come in with a similar physique to do a similar job but hasn't performed this quite as well.

For example, I thought a lot of your build up play last season was based on defenders playing out from the back into Matic, who could start attacks with his quick and accurate passing. He is a key cog in turning defence to attack quickly. This year, I think without him, teams have cottoned on that they can press you higher up the pitch into making mistakes without him there and that's happened more than you'd like. You have also seen at Man Utd this year where quite a few of their goals have come from him turning defence into attack.

Bakayoko also for example, averages significantly less touches in a game than Matic and is also lower down on passes per game so clearly his presence has been missed.

I think you've definitely lost impotence going forward and also become more exposed. There isn't really anyone in your squad that has been able to replicate what he brought to your team.

Costa went missing in the second half of the season last year for me and Hazard pulled you through but the one person that was always there was Matic and I don't think that can be ignored this season.

 

Edited January 25, 2018 by Lucas

[The Liquidator]

It never fails to amaze me to how some people read football and more importantly my clubs performances on the pitch.

Should be a evaluation of non Chelsea supporting members before they are allowed to comment in our Chelsea thread. 

[Cicero]

20 minutes ago, Lucas said:

I don't see as much dominance in midfield without him and for me this is the key area on the pitch. This is where you win football matches.

Matic is a phenominal build, tall, big, powerful, imposing and deceivably quick. He's very good at what he does. Probably underrated infact. Bakayoko has come in with a similar physique to do a similar job but hasn't performed this quite as well.

For example, I thought a lot of your build up play last season was based on defenders playing out from the back into Matic, who could start attacks with his quick and accurate passing. He is a key cog in turning defence to attack quickly. This year, I think without him, teams have cottoned on that they can press you higher up the pitch into making mistakes without him there and that's happened more than you'd like. You have also seen at Man Utd this year where quite a few of their goals have come from him turning defence into attack.

Bakayoko also for example, averages significantly less touches in a game than Matic and is also lower down on passes per game so clearly his presence has been missed.

I think you've definitely lost impotence going forward and also become more exposed. There isn't really anyone in your squad that has been able to replicate what he brought to your team.

Costa went missing in the second half of the season last year for me and Hazard pulled you through but the one person that was always there was Matic and I don't think that can be ignored this season.

 

Myself, and I'm pretty sure almost every Chelsea fan here, will disagree with that. 

2014 Matic, I would stand by the claim that he was arguably the best DM in the world at the time. That mainly had to do with Mourinho's tactics, as he helped us absorb pressure and break on the counter. But since his injury in 2015, he hasn't been anywhere close to the player he once was other than the occasional good performance. 

The 3-4-3 was a revelation to the Premier League, and teams didn't know how to set up against us. It was only against Spurs at the lane last season where we got truly exposed. You put pressure on our back 3 as well as our wing backs, we are screwed. We have vastly limited wing backs in Moses and Alonso, and Kante's on the ball ability as a midfielder isn't 'great' and Matic turns into a donkey in headlights under pressure.  With all this set into place, we get over run in the middle. Don't take my word for it, look at teams setting up against us last season vs. this season.  Last season, Matic literally took the ball, looked up and found a pass with relative ease. This season, teams such as Watford, Palace, Burnley, etc. They knew what to do against us and they knew our weakness and exposed it. You have to remember we had no European football last season, which played a HUGE factor.

CarefreeLuke will go bonkers when he reads your last sentence mate. . Matic was bar none terrible the 2nd half of last sesaon. The 2nd half of last season was where Kante got a bump on his statsitical numbers, because he was arguably doing the work of 2 midfielders. Matic was passive, lethargic, and slowed down the tempo of our play. He gave up possession so easily and his movement off the ball in defence was appalling. It was a point where his limitations of a footballer were exposed. So unbelievably inconsistent. Matic might look better now in a 3 man midfield now that he has to cover less ground, but it can't be ignored how utterly awful he was for us during that period of the season. You just have to look at Spurs in the FA Cup semi final and Arsenal in the Final to see my point. Nothing but a passenger. 

The main difference what Bakayoko brings us, is his dynamism. His ability to run forward with the ball, which has worked well in our system. Despite his recent performances, he has done well in almost every big game this season, Atletico away, United at home, and last night against Arsenal were easily his best performances. I have patience with him due to his age, but I have no doubt in my mind he was a better long term solution and better fit for the system than Matic. 

 

 

[The Liquidator]

1 hour ago, carefreeluke said:

I have to agree with @The Liquidator. I don't want Conte sacked far from it just to be clear.

Conte knew what he was signing up to, he also spoke to Ancelotti and others before taking the job and he's sounding like a broken record. He's always made clear from the very start that the club have the final say with regards to transfers but he definitely has more influence than he is letting on at the moment. Fans are quick to pinpoint individuals in a club's hierarchy but it's a mutual game really, it's down to the manager, scouts, the board members, agents associated to the club etc. Conte has influence there's no doubt about that, there's no doubt that the club work with him to find players that fits the profile for the manager, Emenalo's role was always to work with the manager for example. The chase for Llorente and Dzeko in my mind comes from Conte wanting a striker of that profile and we've been buying more players from the Italian market than previous years under Roman which suggests Conte is having some influence as he would know these players, this is being assumptive though which is the mistake too many of us make when talking about the club's hierarchy and business.

I just think the board at the moment with financial fair play, the new stadium and a change in policy (which has been in place well before Conte got here) have more limitations now (more than ever in the Roman era) and it's more difficult to work within those limitations. This isn't 2004 where our spending seemed to have no limits. Marina in her negotiations (there's no way she's choosing the players to buy as some Chelsea fans would have you assume) can only work with a certain budget and instructions that come from the Big Man himself.

I'll say one thing though, it isn't that we're not spending money, it's who we're choosing to buy that's the problem and until we have sufficient evidence pointing at someone to put it down to, it's best to look at the club as a whole and put the blame there. I blame Roman, Conte, the scouting network, Marina, everyone, this is a mutual affair. I don't like how people pinpoint and blame certain individuals when there's little or no evidence to back it up.

This post isn't aimed at anyone on here by the way.

Well balanced n well written Luke. As ever you make some good points on whats going on at our club.

[Cicero]

We don't have limitations in spending. My main gripe is the fact we are spending shit loads on average players.  My Biggest gripe, is why we waited until deadline day to get a wing back. In a system where we are very dependent on them, why did we end up with just Zappacosta and on fucking deadline day? City sorted Walker, Mendy, and Danilo (three wingbacks far superior than Zappacosta) and it was all sorted by July. 

That is my gripe. 

[Lucas]

27 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Myself, and I'm pretty sure almost every Chelsea fan here, will disagree with that. 

2014 Matic, I would stand by the claim that he was arguably the best DM in the world at the time. That mainly had to do with Mourinho's tactics, as he helped us absorb pressure and break on the counter. But since his injury in 2015, he hasn't been anywhere close to the player he once was other than the occasional good performance. 

The 3-4-3 was a revelation to the Premier League, and teams didn't know how to set up against us. It was only against Spurs at the lane last season where we got truly exposed. You put pressure on our back 3 as well as our wing backs, we are screwed. We have vastly limited wing backs in Moses and Alonso, and Kante's on the ball ability as a midfielder isn't 'great' and Matic turns into a donkey in headlights under pressure.  With all this set into place, we get over run in the middle. Don't take my word for it, look at teams setting up against us last season vs. this season.  Last season, Matic literally took the ball, looked up and found a pass with relative ease. This season, teams such as Watford, Palace, Burnley, etc. They knew what to do against us and they knew our weakness and exposed it. You have to remember we had no European football last season, which played a HUGE factor.

CarefreeLuke will go bonkers when he reads your last sentence mate. . Matic was bar none terrible the 2nd half of last sesaon. The 2nd half of last season was where Kante got a bump on his statsitical numbers, because he was arguably doing the work of 2 midfielders. Matic was passive, lethargic, and slowed down the tempo of our play. He gave up possession so easily and his movement off the ball in defence was appalling. It was a point where his limitations of a footballer were exposed. So unbelievably inconsistent. Matic might look better now in a 3 man midfield now that he has to cover less ground, but it can't be ignored how utterly awful he was for us during that period of the season. You just have to look at Spurs in the FA Cup semi final and Arsenal in the Final to see my point. Nothing but a passenger. 

The main difference what Bakayoko brings us, is his dynamism. His ability to run forward with the ball, which has worked well in our system. Despite his recent performances, he has done well in almost every big game this season, Atletico away, United at home, and last night against Arsenal were easily his best performances. I have patience with him due to his age, but I have no doubt in my mind he was a better long term solution and better fit for the system than Matic. 

 

 

I agree on the midfield for sure which is what I initially mentioned it. You do not seem to control games enough for a potential league winning side. That is clearly evident to see. I won't teach Chelsea fans how to suck eggs when you watch them more than me and if you feel that's not a valid opinion on Matic, fair do's, I'll accept that although I'm still not sure.

I do feel that his inclusion at Man Utd has definitely improved them as we saw by the performances of Pogba this year and I do wonder what things would have been like for you had he been in your team this year. On the evidence of what I've seen, Bakayoko hasn't done it for me but clearly there is a talent there. I feel like it's more than coincidence that without Matic in the middle, we've seen you forced into more mistakes by teams high pressing, not just in terms of the wing back weakness as you mentioned. But that's just my opinion, not to say I'm right.

As for going forward, I can't see Conte being there next season. I think the fact he's openly slating the club's transfer policy shows how frustrated he is and after the Costa fiasco, getting caught up in Mourinho's mind games, you can see Chelsea pulling the plug on him.

Be interesting if you go for Juve's manager as I saw rumoured, particularly as he loves the three at the back. Part of me would say Ancelotti possibly as he seemed to be the only guy interested in encouraging the youth through the ranks but I feel his chances are tainted now after Bayern.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Lucas

[Cicero]

15 minutes ago, Lucas said:

I agree on the midfield for sure which is what I initially mentioned it. You do not seem to control games enough for a potential league winning side. That is clearly evident to see.

I won't teach Chelsea fans how to suck eggs when you watch them more than me and if you feel that's not a valid opinion on Matic, fair do's, I'll accept that although I'm still not sure.

I do feel that his inclusion at Man Utd has definitely improved them as we saw by the performances of Pogba this year and I do wonder what things would have been like for you had he been in your team this year. On the evidence of what I've seen, Bakayoko hasn't done it for me but clearly there is a talent there.

I feel like it's more than coincidence that without Matic in the middle, we've seen you forced into more mistakes by teams high pressing, not just in terms of the wing back weakness as you mentioned.

As for going forward, I can't see Conte being there next season. I think the fact he's openly slating the club's transfer policy shows how frustrated he is and after the Costa fiasco, getting caught up in Mourinho's mind games, you can see Chelsea pulling the plug on him.

Be interesting if you go for Juve's manager as I saw rumoured, particularly as he loves the three at the back.

One thing Mourinho has always excelled at, is balance. Matic obviously works better in a midfield three vs. a two, and with this inclusion it allows Pogba to be furthur up the pitch. 

We are seeing the same indentical issues we did last season. With or without Matic. When teams press us, we struggle. Arsenal, Spurs, and City did it last season, now more and more teams are doing it this season. Not taking a jab, but I feel it's more than coincidence this problem alone had any bearing on Matic, considering even with him, we suffered the very same issue.  It's no surprise we are seeing more and more teams press us vs. last season, and it's no surprise Conte now prefers to add 3 midfieldres instead of two in a 3-5-2 to deal with this issue.  It was that very reason I laughed at United parking the bus against us, which gave us so much freedom to play our football. (a game where Bakayoko took the piss out of Matic I may add). 

Conte is as good as gone. He want's more power than the role he currently has, and I can see PSG knocking on his door.  Shame really, as without a shadow of a doubt, on a 'coaching' aspect, he's the best we've ever had. If we actually got his targets vs spending shit loads on bang average players, we'd be far better off. 

Edited January 25, 2018 by Cicero

[LFCMadLad]

I heard Lampard (who knows far more than any of us) interviewed on the radio earlier, and he reckons that Chelsea are no longer shopping in the same market as the big clubs. He also said that Roman is now unprepared to go toe to toe with with the big clubs in the transfer market and that cuts throughout the club are being made. 

It was only a matter of time before he got bored of pumping his own money into a plaything without any sort of financial return to be fair. 

Chelsea has cost him a fortune and he’s now looking to cash in once the stadium is built according to Lampard. 

[Cicero]

8 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

I heard Lampard (who knows far more than any of us) interviewed on the radio earlier, and he reckons that Chelsea are no longer shopping in the same market as the big clubs. He also said that Roman is now unprepared to go toe to toe with with the big clubs in the transfer market and that cuts throughout the club are being made. 

It was only a matter of time before he got bored of pumping his own money into a plaything without any sort of financial return to be fair. 

Chelsea has cost him a fortune and he’s now looking to cash in once the stadium is built according to Lampard. 

[LFCMadLad]

2 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Don’t worry mate, just change your username to CiceroinhoPep and come back as a City fan. 

Nobody will know 

[carefreeluke]

'Can't be asked' comes to mind when describing Conte here.

 

[True Blue]

Good performance vs Newcastle, happy for Michy getting two goals even tough he didn't do much for the first. Could have easily bagged a hat trick, overall a good team performance. Credit to Newcastle for not sitting back and actually having a few decent chances. We now have a bit of a "easier run" with Bournemouth and WBA at the Bridge and Watford away before the long awaited "nightmare" run. Morata should be back for Bournemouth, read that his best friend died in a car crash won't help him much mentally. No new news on a striker, the recent links suggest we could get Giroud on a loan move which wouldn't be bad imo. Prefer to keep Morata and Michy but we will see what happens.

Oh and very happy for Hudson Oddoi for his Chelsea debut looked very eager to play, hope to see more of him.

Edited January 29, 2018 by True Blue

[Cicero]

Wasn't a 3-0 performance at all in my opinion, thought we still looked shaky. Drinkwater had a mare and Batshuayi got 2 of the luckiest goals in his career. Alonso will yet again make the headlines with his FK even though he's been a liability for going on 12 months now. 

On a plus, Ampadu has a ridiculous passing range and Batshuayi looks to be a confidence performing player, as in the 2nd half he looked a different player in general. Need to push towards his loan move and be at a club where he can play regularly. 

I want to see Hudson Oddoi get more minutes, as he reminds me of Musonda. 

[True Blue]

Džeko deal apparently off, tbh i'd rather keep Bats until the summer no need to spend silly money on a player that will be for for two seasons max. Arsenal would want 35 mill for Giroud and he is 31 if we get him i'll cry for real. Ger fucking Emerson to cover Alonso and wait for Conte to walk in the summer.

[carefreeluke]

Just to remind you lot, Drinkwater cost a lot of money. I have nothing against the bloke but I don’t know what he offers other than to plug a gap tactically in midfield.

[The Liquidator]

Comfortable win after a fairly shaky start. Newcastle came to play and allowed us opportunities to break away and score. As we all know, we struggle to break down 10 at the back.

Happy for Mitchy and hope the manager keeps giving him chances to start. He needs encouragement to keep leading the line as our recent history tells us we are unlikely to find another forward in this window no matter how much bullshit the media link us too.

Yeah I have to agree Drinkwater was well below the standard we expect from out players. It didnt help each time he shot at goal the corner flags insurance went up. Early days for him, but I am sure he now has a firm idea of the difference of playing for Leicester compared to us.

Hudson Oddoi made us all smile. Looks the part and has had a growth spurt since I last saw him. Fingers crossed.

Lastly, Christensen far more consistent of late. Helps he seems to be the managers fav and gets to play in the same position all the time, unlike Rudiger who without doubt has settled the best of the summer signings, but gets moved from game to game.

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by The Liquidator
It posted before I had finished

[True Blue]

Agreed on Rudiger, had my doubts when he signed but apart from the Roma game away excellent in most of his appearances. 

[carefreeluke]

Rudiger has done well yes but I feel he can improve at the same time, needs to work on his concentration. It doesn't help (as Liquidator points out) that he gets shifted about the back line but I think he was bought with that purpose in mind. We can be relatively happy with him though.

I 'm sorry but I refuse to be sold on this man, article written about him today:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/chelsea-marcos-alonso-2017-18-newcastle-fa-cup-a8182926.html

The article makes the right point with regards to the system suiting him etc but this:

Quote

Alonso, on the other hand, is a genuine specialist: as adept poaching crosses at the far post as he is stopping them on his own by-line, or swinging them in himself.

 Myth 1: He's quite good in and around the opponent's box but it's his purpose within the system to do that, it's following strict tactical instructions from Conte. I can't take anything away from his finishing but why doesn't Moses get these goal scoring opportunities on the other side? Because we don't get any crosses in from Alonso's side. There's little productivity there in terms of attacking play.

Myth 2: He doesn't defend crosses well.

Myth 3: He never gets in crosses! Everything is inside or backwards, he rarely whips the ball around a defender or creates the space for that to happen. He looks for the pass inside all the time, he's very limited in that regard, his body is facing inside to the midfield a lot of the game.

As for Moses on the other side, he's becoming very predictable, can't remember the last time he actually beat a player, looks lacking in confidence in that regard. It was striking the other night when Iwobi had him in his pocket. I'm getting a bit tired of Moses running at a player only for it to result in him being dispossessed, would give Zappacosta more of a run in the team for the sheer reason that it's something different.

And I've always liked Batshuayi to be honest, I rate him.