Chelsea Discussion

[True Blue]

Bit early to be honest at 27, however agreed i doubt he will be with us beyond next summer especially if Sarri stays.

[Dr. Gonzo]

On 10/08/2018 at 21:37, Spike said:

It's Italian style, you should know it by now. Loan in now, buy next season. I swear that is how most Italian transfers go through.

It’s sort of replaced co-ownership after that was banned.

[Spike]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It’s sort of replaced co-ownership after that was banned.

Co-ownership always felt like a cover for money laundering haha

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

Co-ownership always felt like a cover for money laundering haha

It was fucking quality back when I still played FM as an Italian side, though.

[Cicero]

"You know what I said after the World Cup," he says, "I'm happy here, I do not want to talk about that yet, a lot of things have been said, nonsense and everything. For the moment, I am happy, I have two more years of contract and we will see what will happen, leave this year, I will not leave, the transfer window in England is over. can not sign players, it would be a little odd that they (the Chelsea leaders, ed) let me go and they do not recruit a player behind.We could still see today that fans love me I'm fine here, we'll see what happens in a year or two. "

[True Blue]

Could care less to be honest, on his day he is unstoppable but i wouldn't keep a unhappy player. If he likes to stay fine by me, if he wants out then sell him abroad.

[carefreeluke]

Light and day the difference between Kovacic and Barkley yesterday. I know Kovacic came on with fresh legs but he did more in 30 minutes than Barkley has done in his Chelsea career in my opinion. The difference was that Kovacic looked to impose himself on the game, he played with purpose, confidence, intelligence and personality. I watch Barkley and I just think he lacks that personality to impose himself on a game but also the level of football intelligence as well. Barkley has the ability but it just shows how much football is about the mind as well. Watching Barkley I just get the impression he looks a bit clueless. Kovacic yesterday I swear every 2nd pass went to him, he always wanted the ball which is a sign in itself. Also looked like Kovavic played a different type of role which suited the game at that point as well, stayed closer to the other central midfielders which helped us control the ball and consequently the game.

62% possession we had yesterday.  

Edited August 19, 2018 by carefreeluke

[Cicero]

The link up play between him and Hazard was exciting. Was not going to be confident going into the season with only Barkley and Reuben Loftus-Cheek 

[The Liquidator]

Was at the game and I have watched it on TV twice.

Point on the Real Madrid player. Interesting what Luke had to say. For me it was obvious what happened. As he walked on the pitch he was joined by the best player in the league. Everything went through him, every 2^nd ball Luke said. Well I would not agree with that at all. He benefitted with our forward play being aimed at Hazard, his side of the pitch. Its not the Real Madrid player who was the magnet, it’s the best player in the league. Once Hazard was on the pitch Jorginho only looked to the left (I say a bit about Pedro during this time later on). The truth of the matter is Alonso played further forward linking up with Hazard down that left side. Proof of this is the goal. Also, for a bloke who had everything go through him, Kovacic had nothing to do with the winning goal (Other than diving for the free kick before the build up to the goal, but I am sure nobody wants to lay claim to blatant cheating) and from a quickness of moving the ball point of view, passes given to him would have been much faster if they had missed him out and got the ball directly to Hazard as they did with the goal and was obviously the objective of the team once he entered the pitch. Hazard attracts players to him which in turn makes space for others. If he hadn’t joined Hazard on the pitch I am sure the guy who was playing in his position before he came on would have benefitted from more possession because the best player in the league was standing next to him. We must also remember it was Kovacic who did not run with Ramsey who’s shot was spilled by our young keeper allowing Lacazette a free pop at the ball which caused objections from those around. Pretty simple stuff really, but I think your comments are more aimed at having a pop at Barkley than having any real substance of proof on the Real Madrid player performance. The applause Barkley got leaving the pitch leaves nobody without any doubt what Chelsea fans thought of his performance. If he starts next game I would tell him to get further forward, gamble more. Id much rather have someone busting a gut to be alongside Hazard as an option in the box, ala Frank, than behind him as Kovacic was. We have Alonso for that. If I was assessing Kovacic 30 minute cameo I would say he was very neat n tidy. Defensively naïve watching the ball rather taking notice of the guy he was marking which almost cost us a goal. Hardly the second coming of Lazarus as some would have you believe, but obviously another player who is comfortable on the ball. It’s his first game & I am sure he will do us some good, but he isn’t our player and there is no fixed fee for him, so for me you go with the players who will be with us next season. Obviously that would change and he would become an equal if he was to become our player.

Anyway, the real problem in the midfield is defensively Jorginho. I have to say this manager needs to swallow some pride n return Kante back to the middle. I am not fussed if he finds another position for his fav player. He can play when the ball is at his feet, but as others are now pointing out, what I said within seeing him play 2 pre season games, he is a huge liability without the ball. I am not saying he is at fault alone for the mad 20 minutes when Arsenal should have won the game, but I would offer he was about as much use as an heart attack during that period. Now as I am sure people have worked out, I am not a fan of the high line, press, but this manager has played it for sometime elsewhere, with Jorginho as his central midfielder. So why is the manager highlighting we need to time our pressing better and need to work more on this. The most guilty bloke is his fav player who is always far too much up the pitch! Fuck me, if his fav player who has been playing his system for a number of years cant time it right, how many mad 20 mins are we gonna have this season? I think the bottom line is, our defence isn’t good enough to have a central holding midfielder in the quarter back roll. It needs a proper defensive midfielder and when you have the best in the world in that position on your books, don’t play him out wide. It’s common sense. Fabregas managed to influence games from the right sided midfield position for years, so why can’t Jorginho? I have what Aurelio De Laurentiis said about Sarri nagging in my head. One trick pony. Makes me wonder if we are saddled with a QB in the middle all season or does this manager have it in him to tweak something to make us more solid?

Goalie. Ok two games and in our house and I am sure many other Chelsea houses up n down the country is is now known as Teflon. Nothing sticks at all. He is young & the Chelsea boards are all stating we need to cut him some slack. We paid a lot of money for this slack needing keeper and one would have thought he should have stopped at least one of the two goals as he got a hand to both. Granted his hand did not find the middle of the ball either time… I am just saying. He is good with the ball at his feet, although when hitting with his left foot the ball balloons rather than gets drilled. Often see him allowing defenders to attack his clearances\passes he hits with his left foot. It’s obvious there is a keeper in him, just hope he can catch a few balls in time.

Wow Morata has a left foot Morata has a left foot na na na na, na na na na. Never doubted the chap (I Jest), but he needs to do it again n again n again before the end of September or he as advertised, Shit. Interesting he has now said Conte’s style did not suit him. After playing for him in Italy, makes you wonder why he would sign for him in London if he had questions over his style. "For me, it's easy. I could have gone back to Spain or Italy, all the people believe in me there, but I want to change things here, I want to, not for all the haters, but for me and for Chelsea. Chelsea gave me everything that I needed and now I have time to give back all that Chelsea give me.” …………Hey, I hear yer feller, would love to see it, but…….. lets wait n see eh?

Plus points. Hazard was outstanding when he came on and it was nice of him to pass on what Madrid have told him to say after the game ~Rollseyes~. He attracts players to him, wins free kicks, set up goal chances, although the last one to Giroud he should have taken on himself. You could see our team shift everything to the left when he came on. Jorginho only looked the one way from the moment Hazard entered the pitch which meant we became one dimensional. I was disappointed after he came on and Arsenal shifted players onto his side, that Pedro did not hug the right hand touchline. We needed that “out” with so much given to the left. Pedro while too far inside late in the game did have another good game, again scoring. He was staved so much of the ball once Hazard came on that late in the game Pedro was seen right over onto the left flank. Meanwhile Willian so far isn’t up to scratch. Again Barkley played well and there were groans around the ground when his number was put up to pull him off but brilliant loud applause. I like many others would have liked to seen him with Hazard, but we all can see how this manager is looking as he ok’d the sweetener. Lastly on the day, Dave, captain, gave a great interview after the game on BT Sport. I never saw it till Sunday, but he represented the club very well. Shame he got the run around during those mad 20 minutes. Talking of those 20 minutes, I feel sure we would have heard after the game our manager, being Italian, would have been up on a match fixing charge had the game ended 2-2. How else could anyone explain the Chalk n Cheese first half performance.

Next weekend we have our hardest fixture of the season

[Cicero]

Switching Kante to the DM role won't do anything. Every one of our midfielders were guilty of ball watching. Ridiculous we still have Chelsea fans who think Kante is a DM. The quicker people realise Kante isn't actually a defensive midfielder, the better. The issue is a positional sense that all of our players are still getting used to. 

For two seasons, we went from having 5 defenders and two midfielders, in a system where we sat deep. We now have a system with 4 defenders, three midfielders, in a system where we have a possession based game and press high up the pitch. Talk about a knee jerk reaction thinking players need to be switching positions due to not understanding their roles perfectly. It's been 4 bloody weeks 

Also, Jorginho's role as our holding midfielder is the very reason why we are moving the ball with so much fluidity and dominating possession. It is part of Sarri's system and its so naive to think that putting Kante in the middle would provide the same outcome. Asinine you are so quick to slate Jorginho, who has been nothing short of elite for us in our way of playing, yet praise Barkley who's nothing but a clog atm. 

I've seen far more positives than negatives. And some of those negatives are part of the transition of learning Sarri's football. 

Relax

[Spike]

Kante is a midfield agressor, it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of his talents and positional roles to think he can play as a holding midfielder.  Well, he probably can but it would be like putting a leash on a gaurd dog and expecting it to protect your home.

[The Liquidator]

21 minutes ago, Spike said:

Kante is a midfield agressor, it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of his talents and positional roles to think he can play as a holding midfielder.  Well, he probably can but it would be like putting a leash on a gaurd dog and expecting it to protect your home.

Kante?

[Bluewolf]

In fairness I actually thought Barkley had a decent game for us prior to coming off... It kind of got lost though in all the defensive talk which was the main topic of conversation.. I would agree with Luke about him, he looks great on the ball sometimes and can move it quickly and put pressure on defenders with his sudden bursts of speed but he still lacks that ability to make a sensible or controlled decision beyond that point.. You know, a clever little pass after drawing in the defenders to free up someone else, he just seems to drive on with it until he is crowded off the ball and ends up losing it.. 

Sarri seems to fancy him and maybe he can improve his thought process.. he also seems to be a bit hit and miss, some games he hardly makes a dent and others he is right in the thick of it.. Not sure how he was at Everton, if he was the same there or more consistent?? He has not had a lot of playing time since coming to us so let's see how much better ( or not ) he becomes across the season.. 

[RandoEFC+]

To be fair I can't remember which chance it was, possibly the Iwobi goal, but it was Kante who should have been tracking the run and he just let the Arsenal player drift past him unchallenged. I think Chelsea were confused as a unit how to deal with Arsenal for that patch of the game.

I wasn't analysing as closely as you guys will have and I certainly haven't watched the game twice but Arsenal seemed to be getting to the byline with consummate ease every time they came forward and if you allow a team to do that and pull the ball back there will always be danger regardless of how well your midfielders track the runners. A good pull back can just as easily go in off a defender as an attacker. For me that points to the defensive frailties of the full backs which is not surprising for Alonso but pretty surprising for Azpilicueta.

[Cicero]

1 minute ago, RandoEFC said:

To be fair I can't remember which chance it was, possibly the Iwobi goal, but it was Kante who should have been tracking the run and he just let the Arsenal player drift past him unchallenged. I think Chelsea were confused as a unit how to deal with Arsenal for that patch of the game.

I wasn't analysing as closely as you guys will have and I certainly haven't watched the game twice but Arsenal seemed to be getting to the byline with consummate ease every time they came forward and if you allow a team to do that and pull the ball back there will always be danger regardless of how well your midfielders track the runners. A good pull back can just as easily go in off a defender as an attacker. For me that points to the defensive frailties of the full backs which is not surprising for Alonso but pretty surprising for Azpilicueta.

The entire back 4 had a lot of protection in front of them under Conte. It was very much zonal marking. 

Under Sarri, both Alonso and Dave need to be tighter on the opposition. Not allowing them to cross. The latter I am sure is capable of adjusting, Alonso however will always leave me skeptical. 

[RandoEFC+]

Just now, Bluewolf said:

In fairness I actually thought Barkley had a decent game for us prior to coming off... It kind of got lost though in all the defensive talk which was the main topic of conversation.. I would agree with Luke about him, he looks great on the ball sometimes and can move it quickly and put pressure on defenders with his sudden bursts of speed but he still lacks that ability to make a sensible or controlled decision beyond that point.. You know, a clever little pass after drawing in the defenders to free up someone else, he just seems to drive on with it until he is crowded off the ball and ends up losing it.. 

Sarri seems to fancy him and maybe he can improve his thought process.. he also seems to be a bit hit and miss, some games he hardly makes a dent and others he is right in the thick of it.. Not sure how he was at Everton, if he was the same there or more consistent?? He has not had a lot of playing time since coming to us so let's see how much better ( or not ) he becomes across the season.. 

He came into the team as your typical prospect, fearless and dangerous but unreliable and inconsistent. His problem was that several managers tried to mould the rough diamond into a midfielder you can build a team around.

Moyes' idea was to loan him out as soon as he made one costly mistake in the first team which ruined his confidence and he ended up not even getting a game for Sheffield Wednesday.

Martinez' idea was to give Ross trust and freedom. This saw him flourish in an attacking role for one season when we were flying forward with Lukaku, Deulofeu, Baines and Coleman but then when the team struggled in the next two years he didn't take responsibility and instead went missing most of the time and showed no ability to take a game by the scruff of the neck which was what we needed from him and by this time he's edging toward his mid 20s and still playing a bit like the new kid on the block.

Koeman tried to turn Ross from the boy into the man with a bit of tough love. It sort of worked, he became more consistent and made less mistakes, but his attacking output was also far less, he made fewer things happen, while the likes of Alli, Loftus-Cheek and Oxlade-Chamberlain have usurped him in the England manager's thinking.

You can make excuses for Barkley in that he's had so many different managers, had a major injury when he was just breaking onto the scene which saw him miss a year, and another write off season last year at a really costly point in his career. However, for a player who broke into our first team squad about six years ago, he just hasn't developed enough. When he was 18 he was a raw talent with huge potential that demonstrated poor decision making and inconsistent output on the pitch. As far as I can see, now, at nearly 25, he's a raw talent who makes poor decisions on the pitch and generally gets accused of having poor football intelligence. For me a really good player makes more progress than that and he's the type of player who will continue to tread water unless he hits the jackpot with a manager that can strike the right chord with him in a way that no previous manager has.

My guess is that Barkley will continue to play 'not bad' for Chelsea and the fans will continue to give him time until they suffer a few more difficult results, realise he isn't that much of a game changer to be playing for a top six club that wants to challenge for major honours and identify that spot in the team as an area in which they need more quality. Sarri is meant to be a top class coach though so maybe he's the man to change the story.

[Bluewolf]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

He came into the team as your typical prospect, fearless and dangerous but unreliable and inconsistent. His problem was that several managers tried to mould the rough diamond into a midfielder you can build a team around.

Moyes' idea was to loan him out as soon as he made one costly mistake in the first team which ruined his confidence and he ended up not even getting a game for Sheffield Wednesday.

Martinez' idea was to give Ross trust and freedom. This saw him flourish in an attacking role for one season when we were flying forward with Lukaku, Deulofeu, Baines and Coleman but then when the team struggled in the next two years he didn't take responsibility and instead went missing most of the time and showed no ability to take a game by the scruff of the neck which was what we needed from him and by this time he's edging toward his mid 20s and still playing a bit like the new kid on the block.

Koeman tried to turn Ross from the boy into the man with a bit of tough love. It sort of worked, he became more consistent and made less mistakes, but his attacking output was also far less, he made fewer things happen, while the likes of Alli, Loftus-Cheek and Oxlade-Chamberlain have usurped him in the England manager's thinking.

You can make excuses for Barkley in that he's had so many different managers, had a major injury when he was just breaking onto the scene which saw him miss a year, and another write off season last year at a really costly point in his career. However, for a player who broke into our first team squad about six years ago, he just hasn't developed enough. When he was 18 he was a raw talent with huge potential that demonstrated poor decision making and inconsistent output on the pitch. As far as I can see, now, at nearly 25, he's a raw talent who makes poor decisions on the pitch and generally gets accused of having poor football intelligence. For me a really good player makes more progress than that and he's the type of player who will continue to tread water unless he hits the jackpot with a manager that can strike the right chord with him in a way that no previous manager has.

My guess is that Barkley will continue to play 'not bad' for Chelsea and the fans will continue to give him time until they suffer a few more difficult results, realise he isn't that much of a game changer to be playing for a top six club that wants to challenge for major honours and identify that spot in the team as an area in which they need more quality. Sarri is meant to be a top class coach though so maybe he's the man to change the story.

Well that was pretty detailed mate I have to say... nice informative post

As you have said which is our worry, given the amount of managers he has worked under you might have thought he could have made some sort of progress by now under one of them but does he feel like one of those orphans that have multiple parents and families and yet never feeling like he belonged anywhere and just couldn't settle... I fear like you that he may always be that 'guy that had so much unfulfilled potential' and never showed it.. Obi Mikel was the same type of player.. You were always waiting for this so called potential to come bursting out and take the league by storm but it never happened.. He was supposed to have been a great player but he became just a steady player that never really excelled at all and you have to wonder if Barkley will end up being the same.. 

If Sarri continues to have faith but Barkley makes no further progress then I fear all is lost, When you play in a side with so many experienced players you would think he could take note and become better.. 

[Cicero]

Barkely did have a chance to snag the winner against Arsenal after a brilliant piece of play. Only took even more brilliance from Cech to save it. 

Not worried about Barkley at all. I've said it before but I have no doubt he can do a job similar to Joe Cole. 

[Spike]

46 minutes ago, The Liquidator said:

Kante?

Contextless question?

[The Liquidator]

1 hour ago, Bluewolf said:

In fairness I actually thought Barkley had a decent game for us prior to coming off... It kind of got lost though in all the defensive talk which was the main topic of conversation.. I would agree with Luke about him, he looks great on the ball sometimes and can move it quickly and put pressure on defenders with his sudden bursts of speed but he still lacks that ability to make a sensible or controlled decision beyond that point.. You know, a clever little pass after drawing in the defenders to free up someone else, he just seems to drive on with it until he is crowded off the ball and ends up losing it.. 

Sarri seems to fancy him and maybe he can improve his thought process.. he also seems to be a bit hit and miss, some games he hardly makes a dent and others he is right in the thick of it.. Not sure how he was at Everton, if he was the same there or more consistent?? He has not had a lot of playing time since coming to us so let's see how much better ( or not ) he becomes across the season.. 

As he did for the penalty at Huddersfield?

[The Liquidator]

47 minutes ago, Spike said:

Contextless question?

Just checking you have the right player cause even for you your posting is well wide of the mark.

[The Liquidator]

59 minutes ago, Bluewolf said:

Well that was pretty detailed mate I have to say... nice informative post

As you have said which is our worry, given the amount of managers he has worked under you might have thought he could have made some sort of progress by now under one of them but does he feel like one of those orphans that have multiple parents and families and yet never feeling like he belonged anywhere and just couldn't settle... I fear like you that he may always be that 'guy that had so much unfulfilled potential' and never showed it.. Obi Mikel was the same type of player.. You were always waiting for this so called potential to come bursting out and take the league by storm but it never happened.. He was supposed to have been a great player but he became just a steady player that never really excelled at all and you have to wonder if Barkley will end up being the same.. 

If Sarri continues to have faith but Barkley makes no further progress then I fear all is lost, When you play in a side with so many experienced players you would think he could take note and become better.. 

Fair comment. It's only 2 games. One would hope the manager prefers the player who will get into the box when others have the ball wide up front. I am not holding my breath, but sure will point out the failings of those who do make the cut if they do not perform.

[The Liquidator]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

Koeman tried to turn Ross from the boy into the man with a bit of tough love. It sort of worked, he became more consistent and made less mistakes, but his attacking output was also far less, he made fewer things happen, while the likes of Alli, Loftus-Cheek and Oxlade-Chamberlain have usurped him in the England manager's thinking.

 

Thanks for the great info and taking the time to write it. The tough love you speak of, is it the opinion of the Everton fans he left Everton because of the lack of Love at that time?

[Bluewolf]

2 hours ago, The Liquidator said:

As he did for the penalty at Huddersfield?

To be fair that was just a quick flick on that created that chance.. A very good one I grant you that and more play like that from him and he will be a major problem for any defence, things like that suddenly unlock the opposition in a blink of an eye, I am talking more about when he carries the ball on his run and uses his pace to burst forward, sometimes he gets himself boxed in and loses any outlet.. 

Again he had a very good game against Arsenal , very sharp, good short passing, his movement and involvement was good and more of that I will applaud all day long.. 

2 hours ago, The Liquidator said:

Fair comment. It's only 2 games. One would hope the manager prefers the player who will get into the box when others have the ball wide up front. I am not holding my breath, but sure will point out the failings of those who do make the cut if they do not perform.

Indeed, There is a long way to go yet and the whole team not just Barkley need to adapt to Sarris way of thinking and playing.. The play is great to watch at times but also agree with what you said a little before the season kicked off that playing more attacking/attractive football in this set up with the players still adjusting means we will be vulnerable and lose that solidity we have been used to before under previous managers.. Though I would say playing that way last season did us no extra favours and we still caved and lost games we should have won only we had no intention of even trying, That may have been Conte or it may have been the players showing discontent and possibly a bit of both, so why not flip it around and try it the other way for a change.. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Bluewolf

[Spike]

30 minutes ago, The Liquidator said:

Just checking you have the right player cause even for you your posting is well wide of the mark.

Compelling argument. DIAHF