Zidane Leaves Real Madrid; Ancelotti Returns to Real

[Dr. Gonzo]

42 minutes ago, Stan said:

Just over half of it is this:

 

At a fairly considerable loss, too. With nothing to show for it...

The most successful thing Bill Kenwright ever did as Chairman at Everton was killing the ambition of the fans of one of England's biggest clubs.

I think if in 1995 you told Everton fans that you're a time traveler from 2021... and that they wouldn't win anything after that FA Cup they won... they'd probably laugh at you and tell you to fuck off. If you'd gone back in time to 2019 and told them "in two years, you'll still have won nothing" they'd probably say "Everton that" and agree with you.

As a Liverpool fan, I think it's funny. But as a football fan generally, I think it's a bit sad... and bad...

I do think it's a bit of a shame that now Everton have owners that seemingly have ambition to match the Everton fans of the early 90s... but they seem pretty rudderless in trying to match that ambition. Although in fairness to them, they probably were counting on keeping Ancelotti for at least a season or two more - and given his media comments from not too long ago, this is probably a bit of a surprise departure for them to have to deal with.

But in all honesty, I sort of find it a bit surprising how few Everton fans don't absolutely despise Kenwright. It's one of the bigger regressions of a club's fortunes in English football history, imo, up there with Forest and Leeds (although, so far, the Leeds story does turn around a bit) and he was at the helm of that regression for such a long time.

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

If you're going to come into an Everton-related discussion and state records that everyone is already aware of, Everton fans more than anyone else, and maybe have a cheap dig without any actual insight, then don't complain when you don't get an insightful response in return.

Yes, Everton fans are touchy. Don't pretend that you genuinely need it explaining to you why that is. You all know fine well what you're doing, and you all know the answer to the question "what have Everton done in the last 30 years" so stop pretending that this is anything other than a poorly-veiled attempt to get a reaction out of someone. You can see in the actual Everton thread about the next manager that if you have genuine questions or insight to offer then I/we will engage in good faith.

Tbh I didn't read into the comments as a "poorly-veiled attempt to get a reaction out of someone" - I thought it was more of a neutral saying that from the outside looking in... Everton don't look like a club that take many steps forward or backwards. Then stats were used to back his claim up.

I think it's obvious that fans of any club will be more painfully aware of each step forward and however many steps backwards they take. But I don't think you can expect neutrals to have the same level of nuance or detail to consider when they look at a club. They'll look at the handful of matches they've seen of that club a year and the stats/league table.

[RandoEFC+]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Tbh I didn't read into the comments as a "poorly-veiled attempt to get a reaction out of someone" - I thought it was more of a neutral saying that from the outside looking in... Everton don't look like a club that take many steps forward or backwards. Then stats were used to back his claim up.

I think it's obvious that fans of any club will be more painfully aware of each step forward and however many steps backwards they take. But I don't think you can expect neutrals to have the same level of nuance or detail to consider when they look at a club. They'll look at the handful of matches they've seen of that club a year and the stats/league table.

Where was the "genuine question" that Cannabis was asked? Was it "what have Everton done in the last 30 years" or "why are you so upset about it"? Because the first one, everyone knows the answer to, and the second one is pretty self explanatory I'd have thought.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, RandoEFC said:

Where was the "genuine question" that Cannabis was asked? Was it "what have Everton done in the last 30 years" or "why are you so upset about it"? Because the first one, everyone knows the answer to, and the second one is pretty self explanatory I'd have thought.

Imo the most genuine question was "what edginess" 

[RandoEFC+]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Imo the most genuine question was "what edginess" 

Well exactly. From there on it was just a couple of fans of clubs who have won trophies less than 25 days ago pretending not to understand why a fan of a club who last won a trophy more than 25 years ago might just be touchy when asked to repeat an answer to a question about the second of those records that they both already know, hours after that club has lost the most exciting manager they've had in recent history.

@Whiskey bites at stuff that I just ignore in the first instance every once in a while. On this occasion though I'm just not having this pretence of innocence. Stan's post about the finances may have added some insight to the discussion but I don't know what else people expect if you ask a wound up person stupid questions from a perceived position of comfort/privilege/whatever you want to call not being cursed with supporting Everton.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, RandoEFC said:

Well exactly. From there on it was just a couple of fans of clubs who have won trophies less than 25 days ago pretending not to understand why a fan of a club who last won a trophy more than 25 years ago might just be touchy when asked to repeat an answer to a question about the second of those records that they both already know, hours after that club has lost the most exciting manager they've had in recent history.

@Whiskey bites at stuff that I just ignore in the first instance every once in a while. On this occasion though I'm just not having this pretence of innocence. Stan's post about the finances may have added some insight to the discussion but I don't know what else people expect if you ask a wound up person stupid questions from a perceived position of comfort/privilege/whatever you want to call not being cursed with supporting Everton.

I can understand being pissed off you guys have lost Ancelotti, especially after he'd recently come out and said "I'm not interested in the Real Madrid job"

But I don't see what's so edgy about @Spike saying from his perspective Everton don't look like a club that take many steps forwards or backwards.

I don't even agree with him. I think Everton are a club that's mostly taken steps backwards and it's had a horrible effect on what the fans should expect from their club. And I think the club has been really cruel to the fans because any time steps are taken forwards... I agree with @Whiskey... they then seem to take several steps back.

But Spike's a neutral. You and Whiskey aren't. Neither am I, tbh.

[RandoEFC+]

I can't really be arsed. Partly because this isn't actually the thread about Everton. All I wanted to do here was call out the nonsense about "genuine questions", perhaps all parties were equally guilty but the numbers looked unbalanced else I would have just ignored it like I usually try to. I already can't be arsed either with the multiple notifications I'm going to wake up to tomorrow with people defending themselves either but I've made my bed now.

[Stan]

8 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

I can't really be arsed. Partly because this isn't actually the thread about Everton. All I wanted to do here was call out the nonsense about "genuine questions", perhaps all parties were equally guilty but the numbers looked unbalanced else I would have just ignored it like I usually try to. I already can't be arsed either with the multiple notifications I'm going to wake up to tomorrow with people defending themselves either but I've made my bed now.

So you have your say, defend someone who got defensive about being asked a couple of questions, but you'll get pissy about getting notifications from people wanting to defend themselves too

Myself and @Spike being totally castigated here for something totally innocent yet its made out to be some madhouse, earth-shattering questions in a topic. It's quite the opposite in fact. It's tame as fuck compared to what craziness has ensued in the past on this place ffs.

 

There's no cheap digs. There's no 'poorly-veiled attempt to get a reaction'. Don't be such a cop out using that weak excuse. 

Oh and calling people 'drips' is fine but asking simple questions is not. Got it! 

[RandoEFC+]

1 minute ago, Stan said:

So you have your say, defend someone who got defensive about being asked a couple of questions, but you'll get pissy about getting notifications from people wanting to defend themselves too

Myself and @Spike being totally castigated here for something totally innocent yet its made out to be some madhouse, earth-shattering questions in a topic. It's quite the opposite in fact. It's tame as fuck compared to what craziness has ensued in the past on this place ffs.

 

There's no cheap digs. There's no 'poorly-veiled attempt to get a reaction'. Don't be such a cop out using that weak excuse. 

Oh and calling people 'drips' is fine but asking simple questions is not. Got it! 

I'm not here for conflict. Let's lose the self righteous sarcasm shall we? I literally said in the actual post you've quoted that perhaps all parties were equally guilty. But sometimes, and I know we're not all great at this, if someone's feeling a bit touchy about people commenting on their club at the end of a shitty day for their club, and they make a daft comment about it, then the rest of us having normal days can take the high ground and just let it slide instead of asking the same questions and further criticisms that you know are going to wind them up more?

People get emotional about football, it's nothing to be ashamed of and none of us would be here if we were casual fans. Whiskey and I have good reason to be emotional and potentially irrational when discussing it today, so like I've said, maybe those of you who don't on this occasion should have a little bit more foresight about where a conversation starting with "what the fuck has your club done in the last 30 years" is going to lead.

We've seen a few posters leave or feel the need to take breaks from this forum over the past year because they stopped enjoying it. Cannabis once already. Brian, TAD, MadLad. Always after one of these debates which end up in people calling each other names, and usually one where they've ended up feeling ganged up on, and certainly always partially their own fault. Yes, people shouldn't be here if they can't take a bit of stick or handle people disagreeing with them and objectively it's stupid and most of the time it means nothing but there's always ultimately a straw that breaks the camel's back. You can see all the hallmarks of previous incidents in where this conversation was headed. It'll happen less often if we all try to resist the urge to respond in kind when someone starts lowering the bar and we're the ones who are less emotionally invested in the original content of the argument.

[Spike]

3 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Well exactly. From there on it was just a couple of fans of clubs who have won trophies less than 25 days ago pretending not to understand why a fan of a club who last won a trophy more than 25 years ago might just be touchy when asked to repeat an answer to a question about the second of those records that they both already know, hours after that club has lost the most exciting manager they've had in recent history.

@Whiskey bites at stuff that I just ignore in the first instance every once in a while. On this occasion though I'm just not having this pretence of innocence. Stan's post about the finances may have added some insight to the discussion but I don't know what else people expect if you ask a wound up person stupid questions from a perceived position of comfort/privilege/whatever you want to call not being cursed with supporting Everton.

 

[Spike]

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

I'm not here for conflict. Let's lose the self righteous sarcasm shall we? I literally said in the actual post you've quoted that perhaps all parties were equally guilty. But sometimes, and I know we're not all great at this, if someone's feeling a bit touchy about people commenting on their club at the end of a shitty day for their club, and they make a daft comment about it, then the rest of us having normal days can take the high ground and just let it slide instead of asking the same questions and further criticisms that you know are going to wind them up more?

People get emotional about football, it's nothing to be ashamed of and none of us would be here if we were casual fans. Whiskey and I have good reason to be emotional and potentially irrational when discussing it today, so like I've said, maybe those of you who don't on this occasion should have a little bit more foresight about where a conversation starting with "what the fuck has your club done in the last 30 years" is going to lead.

We've seen a few posters leave or feel the need to take breaks from this forum over the past year because they stopped enjoying it. Cannabis once already. Brian, TAD, MadLad. Always after one of these debates which end up in people calling each other names, and usually one where they've ended up feeling ganged up on, and certainly always partially their own fault. Yes, people shouldn't be here if they can't take a bit of stick or handle people disagreeing with them and objectively it's stupid and most of the time it means nothing but there's always ultimately a straw that breaks the camel's back. You can see all the hallmarks of previous incidents in where this conversation was headed. It'll happen less often if we all try to resist the urge to respond in kind when someone starts lowering the bar and we're the ones who are less emotionally invested in the original content of the argument.

oh piss off, for starters the conversation didn’t start with that, and it was a rhetorical question and reaction because cannabis out of nowhere acted like a prick ‘hurr durr egdelord’, so I gave him what he asked for, I gave him an edgy response 

[Spike]

Jesus fucking christ I didn’t think I’d be chewed out for being a cunt because I said ‘I don’t think everton make any progress or take any steps back’

[RandoEFC+]

Never called anyone a cunt though did I?

If you both genuinely read back how you approached that "discussion" and think that it was ever going to get a different response to what you got then fine, I'm sorry that I seem to have offended you both by assuming that there was at least an element of mischief about that approach. To me it just seemed pretty obvious what response you were going to get in that situation.

[Honey Honey]

Wonder if Elche and Alaves have ordered the dvd's of Everton getting beat off the dross of the Premier League to prepare for playing Real Madrid next season

[Stan]

9 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

I'm not here for conflict. Let's lose the self righteous sarcasm shall we? I literally said in the actual post you've quoted that perhaps all parties were equally guilty. But sometimes, and I know we're not all great at this, if someone's feeling a bit touchy about people commenting on their club at the end of a shitty day for their club, and they make a daft comment about it, then the rest of us having normal days can take the high ground and just let it slide instead of asking the same questions and further criticisms that you know are going to wind them up more?

People get emotional about football, it's nothing to be ashamed of and none of us would be here if we were casual fans. Whiskey and I have good reason to be emotional and potentially irrational when discussing it today, so like I've said, maybe those of you who don't on this occasion should have a little bit more foresight about where a conversation starting with "what the fuck has your club done in the last 30 years" is going to lead.

We've seen a few posters leave or feel the need to take breaks from this forum over the past year because they stopped enjoying it. Cannabis once already. Brian, TAD, MadLad. Always after one of these debates which end up in people calling each other names, and usually one where they've ended up feeling ganged up on, and certainly always partially their own fault. Yes, people shouldn't be here if they can't take a bit of stick or handle people disagreeing with them and objectively it's stupid and most of the time it means nothing but there's always ultimately a straw that breaks the camel's back. You can see all the hallmarks of previous incidents in where this conversation was headed. It'll happen less often if we all try to resist the urge to respond in kind when someone starts lowering the bar and we're the ones who are less emotionally invested in the original content of the argument.

 

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Never called anyone a cunt though did I?

If you both genuinely read back how you approached that "discussion" and think that it was ever going to get a different response to what you got then fine, I'm sorry that I seem to have offended you both by assuming that there was at least an element of mischief about that approach. To me it just seemed pretty obvious what response you were going to get in that situation.

I'm not here for conflict, either. Never was. 

What myself and @Spike started out with was genuine - you've had two others who weren't initially in the conversation say as much, as well, seeing there was no 'baiting/fishing'. 

Mentioning others that have left previously is taking it way out of proportion. Those other members you mention had issues way beyond the forum or way too regularly than whatever went on last night. Like I said, 'tame as fuck' compared to all other stuff. I think you're reaching there.

I even alluded to understanding it's a sensitive 'touchy' subject because of what happened during the day. The name-calling didn't come from myself or @Spike, just to point out. No-one ganged up on anyone. 

No-one has offended anyone. In fact, I'm sorry if I/we offended you if we got to close to the bone with anything Everton-related.

Anyway, like I said, it seems to have been blown way out of proportion and perhaps a discussion better had for another day, if at all.  

[Spike]

3 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Never called anyone a cunt though did I?

If you both genuinely read back how you approached that "discussion" and think that it was ever going to get a different response to what you got then fine, I'm sorry that I seem to have offended you both by assuming that there was at least an element of mischief about that approach. To me it just seemed pretty obvious what response you were going to get in that situation.

You don’t need to say it when the sentiment is there. What I originally said was less critical of Everton than whiskey’s post and he responds by taking the piss out of me.  The discussion ended after two posts. Still haven’t been told what was so controversial about my first post. 

Absolute madness

[RandoEFC+]

30 minutes ago, Spike said:

You don’t need to say it when the sentiment is there. What I originally said was less critical of Everton than whiskey’s post and he responds by taking the piss out of me.  The discussion ended after two posts. Still haven’t been told what was so controversial about my first post. 

Absolute madness

I'm sorry if you felt that way, I tried my best to criticise the actions taken rather than the people involved but clearly I didn't do a good enough job of that. For future reference, be assured that if my sentiment is that you are a cunt, I will just call you one.

This has indeed blown well out of proportion, but I think if all parties read the exchange again with the view to trying to understand where the other side was coming from, then we'd all be able to move on. Personally, I'm done here.

[Inverted]

I think the Everton owners are maybe guilty of being a bit naive/arrogant.

The obvious risk of eniticing a big name to come to a job which most people would think is "below" him, is that he himself is almost certainly going to think it's below him too. You can back him and try to wring whatever success out of him you can but it should be done with a cynical awareness that he is just waiting for a better job to come along. 

The best way to get a manager who would seriously buy-in to the club as a project, is to find a less-reputed manager who really wants a chance to prove himself, who can come up on the same trajectory as the club. But this doesn't seem to align with the attitude of the Everton owners, who seem convinced that if you want to become a big club, you need to get big names. 

So its kind of a Catch-22. On one hand, the owners are looking for a saviour-figure who will undertake a big overhaul and develop the club. On the other, by their refusal to consider less-starred candidates, they limit themselves to managers who will not stay for more than a season or two. 

[ScoRoss]

Ancelotti is the type of manager appointed to push a team over the top, which points to Real believing that they will be returning the same, aging squad and trying to get more out of it. Might just be really wishful thinking on their behalf.

It feels weird to think that a team that could have still won the title on the last day, and was in the Champions League semi finals, but they don't really have the same fear around them anymore. Players like Isco and Asensio were being hyped up, but now they should be peaking, are they really that big a difference in the biggest games that Real play? And Hazard seems to have completely fallen flat.

It wasn't too long ago they seemed to pivot and were signing up the best young Spanish players, looking to the future. And now they are all scattered on loans across Europe, whilst they don't have a single player in the Spanish squad. Meanwhile, their young Brazilians still seem completely raw.

[Inverted]

It will also be interesting to see how they handle having to rejuvenate even more of their squad with their financial situation already being so precarious. 

They will likely need a major CB signing, and Modric and Kroos will need serious replacements within a few years.

Not to mention their issues up front, with Benzema getting on a bit, Hazard being a disaster, and it remaining doubtful whether Rodrygo or Vinicius are players you can count as parts of a world class first 11. 

[RandoEFC+]

What actually happened to Eden Hazard? Injuries or just didn't adapt to the league/not having the team built around him as much?

[Stan]

1 hour ago, ScoRoss said:

Ancelotti is the type of manager appointed to push a team over the top, which points to Real believing that they will be returning the same, aging squad and trying to get more out of it. Might just be really wishful thinking on their behalf.

It feels weird to think that a team that could have still won the title on the last day, and was in the Champions League semi finals, but they don't really have the same fear around them anymore. Players like Isco and Asensio were being hyped up, but now they should be peaking, are they really that big a difference in the biggest games that Real play? And Hazard seems to have completely fallen flat.

It wasn't too long ago they seemed to pivot and were signing up the best young Spanish players, looking to the future. And now they are all scattered on loans across Europe, whilst they don't have a single player in the Spanish squad. Meanwhile, their young Brazilians still seem completely raw.

Spot on. It's a decline at the same time as Barca's, when in the past it's usually one or the other who capitalises on the advantage they they have over the other.

I don't think Ancelotti will be the person to get the club back up to the required standard. Like you say, the fear has gone and the financial outlook for both, as well as each club's behaviour regarding the ESL which the money side of things seemed to influence, is still quite poor.

It was only 1-2 seasons ago Asensio was hyped up as the huge next world class elite star of a player. Maybe without Ronaldo they've regressed as a club. Begs the question of what Barcelona will actually do when Messi goes...

[Dr. Gonzo]

8 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

What actually happened to Eden Hazard? Injuries or just didn't adapt to the league/not having the team built around him as much?

He's been injured a lot and comes back from injury not in good shape.

[Cicero]

Ankle injury that's given him tendonitis so its prone to reoccurring injuries. Adjusting his running style and always showing up overweight, creates additional muscular imbalances in other areas. 

[RandoEFC+]

1 minute ago, Cicero said:

Ankle injury that's given him tendonitis so its prone to reoccurring injuries. Adjusting his running style and always showing up overweight, creates additional muscular imbalances in other areas. 

Sound exactly like what's happened to my ankle over the past year. Still working on the overweight part but it's coming.