Russia and Ukraine

[Waylander]

Dr, David Kelly once coined the term dark actors just before his strange death so perhaps mercenaries or agent provocateurs go to places off the tourist map to either spy or assassinate or plant bombs to effect political change.

No state would ever publicly admit to this.

 

 

[Stan]

6 minutes ago, Waylander said:

Dr, David Kelly once coined the term dark actors just before his strange death so perhaps mercenaries or agent provocateurs go to places off the tourist map to either spy or assassinate or plant bombs to effect political change.

No state would ever publicly admit to this.

 

 

Okay. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Poland's calling an urgent meeting of their national security committee. AP is saying US intel has confirmed the missiles that hit Poland were Russian.

Not a great day on the whole "let's hope this Ukraine conflict doesn't spill into a world war" front...

[Azeem]

Biden said it's unlikely it was Russian. But he's an old guy who says a lot things he didn't intended.

[Azeem]

So reports are coming it was a Ukrainian missile going astray trying to intercept a Russian missile. WWIII is postponed.

One a serious note it's alarming that how blurred everything is right now. Any knee jerk reaction and we're fucked.

[DeadLinesman]

[Azeem]

5 hours ago, Beelzebub said:

So reports are coming it was a Ukrainian missile going astray trying to intercept a Russian missile. WWIII is postponed.

One a serious note it's alarming that how blurred everything is right now. Any knee jerk reaction and we're fucked.

Poland's President has also confirmed this.

I was skeptical of Zelensky as a character from the start but he's war mongering over this incident confirms he's a cunt who wants to escalate this as much as other war mongers. 

[Tommy]

5 hours ago, Beelzebub said:

WWIII is postponed.

 

So I bought all this toilet paper for nothing?

[DeadLinesman]

7 hours ago, Tommy said:

So I bought all this toilet paper for nothing?

You’re well stocked for the next round of lockdowns my friend.

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 hours ago, Beelzebub said:

I was skeptical of Zelensky as a character from the start but he's war mongering over this incident confirms he's a cunt who wants to escalate this as much as other war mongers. 

I kind of think he's a massive bellend too. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure one of the hardest jobs in the world is being leader of a country being invaded by a bigger military. But I don't think his attitude in the media has particularly helped - picking arguments with allies that are actually helping out quite a bit, making statements that don't really give Russia a way out from peace (saying "I'll negotiate with Russia, but with Putin's successor" - isn't going to do much in the way of bringing about peace talks any time soon), to the over-the-top criticism that Ukraine's given to India, Pakistan, Israel, and a shitload of African and Asian nations for having their own foreign policy goals that aren't always in line with Ukraine.

I think you've always got to worry about world leaders that act like they like being a leader in wartime.

[Waylander]

I think something happened about 3 weeks ago, none of the senior Dems were making any comment it was like they had run off to the nuclear bunkers.........

Biden has down played this missile event in Poland and that must annoy Zelensky as I think he was expecting a lot more US support. 

The BBC news has taken a more moderate nuance recently which surprised me,

Yesterday they interviewed a shop owner in Kherson saying, 'you have Russian wafer biscuits' she acknowledged this and said a lot of Russian soldiers had used her shop.

On being asked how they behaved said most were ok and paid with just a few taking things without paying, She hoped for peace.

Later they made the point that Lavrov said the Russians were happy to talk about a peace agreement though no details.

 

 

 

[OrangeKhrush]

there are concerns that the vassal states that made up the old USSR are flairing up due to Russia's inability to act as regional policemen, the flair up of the Armenia conflict and Moldova along with this guy running the Ukraine offensive being anti Russia he may welcome a peace treaty and turn this reservist army into a rebellion against Russia...

this is where China steps in, China may save Russia from civil war by returning the favour Russia gave during the Manchurian wars.    it also seems to follow that with the rising of BRICS AND affiliates that Russia may cede territorial control to China, whom have the world's largest and most sophisticated ballistic missile array (including nuclear) and we can assume that Chinese policing is far more brutal than Russia's which may lead to a bloodbath similar to how all rebellions are put down.

[Azeem]

Zelensky announced they're banning the Ukrainian Orthodox Church backed by Moscow, penalties will be imposed on practitioners. He’s not doing himself a favour.

[Azeem]

Short term:

Russia withdraws to pre-February borders with security concerns addressed mutually. Crimea stays de facto with Russia like Monaco and France

Long term:

Western countries after fighting all kinds of hyper sectarian, nationalistic and imperialistic wars last of those some 70 years ago (or less if you count Yugoslavia etc) now respect each other's red zones or have made comprises to ensure mutual prosperity. Just like that they need to adopt the same approach towards emerging non-Western powers Russia, China etc If they want to maintain sole dominance a great showdown is imminent in our life time.

[Waylander]

5 hours ago, Beelzebub said:

Short term:

Russia withdraws to pre-February borders with security concerns addressed mutually. Crimea stays de facto with Russia like Monaco and France

Long term:

Western countries after fighting all kinds of hyper sectarian, nationalistic and imperialistic wars last of those some 70 years ago (or less if you count Yugoslavia etc) now respect each other's red zones or have made comprises to ensure mutual prosperity. Just like that they need to adopt the same approach towards emerging non-Western powers Russia, China etc If they want to maintain sole dominance a great showdown is imminent in our life time.

I don't think Yugoslavia counts here, the Russians told the Serbians they regret not being able to help them,  Only one stand-off at Pristina airport. There was only one super power involved, the US.

Here we have the military super power Russia fighting a neighbour that is being armed by another super power (US) and allies (NATO) of that super power. Ukraine was a conduit country for Russian pipelines delivering fuel to the Western European energy markets.

I realised something was wrong a long time ago when Middle East wars were being pushed while you had a very unpleasant regime in Zimbabwe yet it was nor important on the global chessboard. 

I have read Russia is now beginning to train another 500,000 recruits in addition to the recently touted 300,000. 

US and NATO are also pledging to supplying more arms.

No end in sight unless:

One side folds, no sign of that yet.

The US can win over big states buying cheaper Russian fuel.

Democrats voted out next election -2025 and foreign policy changes?

For me this is a war of systems, the US and EU multi-nats fighting to stop the Russian and China ones getting more global influence,

Biden regime is currently hosting a conference of African delegates as they try to coerce or keep these in the US sphere and away from Russian and Chinese cooperation.

This is a brave new world and the Doomsday Clock is ticking close to Armageddon

https://thebulletin.org/doomsday-clock/current-time/

 

 

 

 

 

[Azeem]

Debris from an Ukrainian missile reportedly fell in Belarus. 

[Michael]

11 hours ago, Beelzebub said:

Debris from an Ukrainian missile reportedly fell in Belarus. 

Is this really going to change anything? Lukashenko and his regime have as much blood on their hands as the Russian hierarchy that support this war. In reality, Belarus have been involved in this war from the start.  

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Michael said:

Is this really going to change anything? Lukashenko and his regime have as much blood on their hands as the Russian hierarchy that support this war. In reality, Belarus have been involved in this war from the start.  

Lukashenko had to rely on Putin to stay in power before this war... I'm pretty sure if Belarus get more heavily involved than they already are he's got an angry crowd of people that want to depose him, with Russia way less ready to keep him in power.

I don't think this war ends until Russia's had enough of throwing men into the meat grinder tbh. And who knows how long that will take. Putin and Zelenskyy are miles apart from what they both view as acceptable conditions for peace. Putin wants Russia to be able to claim the territories they've stolen from Ukraine, including some where they've been beaten out. Zelenskyy wants Ukraine's pre-Crimean borders back in place.

I don't think it ends until Putin's out of power, however long that may take. Unless Ukraine and the west end up appeasing Putin and giving into his demands - but I just can't see that happening. We know appeasing an autocratic imperialist doesn't work from looking at the history of Hitler. I think it's even worse to appease an autocratic imperialist that has nuclear weapons.

Shame Russian men (and women) have less balls than Iranian women (and men), because if Russians were putting the same strain on Putin's government as Iranians are putting on the IRI... I don't think Putin could wage war on Ukraine and cling to power at the same time. Even if it would mean massacring Russians demanding peace, I think the manpower required to control the country would significantly take away from the war effort. Especially as protesting Russians over this conflict would get considerably more international support and coverage than Iranians could ever hope to get.

[Azeem]

4 hours ago, Michael said:

Is this really going to change anything? Lukashenko and his regime have as much blood on their hands as the Russian hierarchy that support this war. In reality, Belarus have been involved in this war from the start.  

Yes, technically there are other actors on the ground other than Russia and Ukraine – Belarus, NATO/US, Iran but they are incognito. They MUST not be given any excuse to come out in the open !

[Azeem]

http://res.heraldm.com/phpwas/restmb_idxmake.php?idx=156&simg=/content/image/2018/10/29/20181029001028_0.jpg

[Tommy]

Wow. 

[OrangeKhrush]

is anyone finding it funny how nobody is interested in finding a peaceful ceasefire?  obviously it's due to everyone wanting a war so they can get their fingers in the pie.

war is bad business unless you are in the business of selling war.

[Tommy]

18 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

is anyone finding it funny how nobody is interested in finding a peaceful ceasefire?  obviously it's due to everyone wanting a war so they can get their fingers in the pie.

war is bad business unless you are in the business of selling war.

Except almost everyone tried that in the beginning and Putin didn't listen to anyone?

[OrangeKhrush]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

Except almost everyone tried that in the beginning and Putin didn't listen to anyone?

I don't believe that at all, the negotiations were from a position that Russia take bad terms, that isn't a negotiation it was a demand.

the west is stoking a situation that nuclear war is a possibility and all the sycophants do is pay themselves on the back for sending equipment used to instigate and propagate the continuation of war.   They do that because the west wants a lonely war where millions of Ukrainians die and taxpayers just keep shovelling cash into a cause nobody wants

Russia demanded a return to the the NATO/Federation line, NATO has been pushing East for years and finally Russia has had enough.  This war is caught over beaurocratic greed for lands the west unilaterally stole from the Soviet union

[Stan]

16 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

I don't believe that at all, the negotiations were from a position that Russia take bad terms, that isn't a negotiation it was a demand.

the west is stoking a situation that nuclear war is a possibility and all the sycophants do is pay themselves on the back for sending equipment used to instigate and propagate the continuation of war.   They do that because the west wants a lonely war where millions of Ukrainians die and taxpayers just keep shovelling cash into a cause nobody wants

Russia demanded a return to the the NATO/Federation line, NATO has been pushing East for years and finally Russia has had enough.  This war is caught over beaurocratic greed for lands the west unilaterally stole from the Soviet union

You make it sound like Russia wasn't bombing the shit out of Ukraine in the first place.