The Greatest Defensive Midfielder Of All Time

[SirBalon]

This one is one of the most disputed football discussions around. A number of friends of mine and myself were discussing this the other day in the pub and an argument erupted (friendly of course) and nobody could make up their minds. Who is it for you... These were the names drawn up that day. Maybe it’s even someone that’s not one of the options.

[Whiskey]

In my lifetime Busquets or Pirlo, although I have always said IMO the GOAT of captains is Roy Keane. Perhaps not in the top bracket in terms of his footballing ability, but his all round package made him one of the main reasons why United were so dominant during the late 90's/early 00's.

[Spike]

What even is a defensive midfielder? Do they even exist? Isn’t every central midfielder defensive? Why is Xabi Alonso and Andrea Pirlo on the list but not Xavi? Roy Keane, Patrick Vieira, and Diego Simeone covered so much of the pitch, that’s why they scored so many goals, are they really ‘defensive’?

Sergio Busquets and Claude Makelele played so deep almost like centrebacks, but so does Rodri but he get forward a lot and scores goals. It just brings me back to points I’ve made in the past, I don’t believe there are any specific positions outside of goalkeeper, defender, midfielder, and forward. And it relates totally to which vertical space they occupy. For instance some would call Joao Cancelo a wingback, I’d just say he is a midfielder because he is always in the midfield. Any other specific definition just gets overly defined, ‘Cancelo isn’t a fullback, he is a complete inverted wingback’.

so to answer your question @SirBalon- I don’t know 

[Danny]

My lifetime it's Busquets.

Also players like Keane and Vieira were much closer to box to box type midfielders than holding midfielders

[SirBalon]

42 minutes ago, Spike said:

What even is a defensive midfielder? Do they even exist? Isn’t every central midfielder defensive? Why is Xabi Alonso and Andrea Pirlo on the list but not Xavi? Roy Keane, Patrick Vieira, and Diego Simeone covered so much of the pitch, that’s why they scored so many goals, are they really ‘defensive’?

Sergio Busquets and Claude Makelele played so deep almost like centrebacks, but so does Rodri but he get forward a lot and scores goals. It just brings me back to points I’ve made in the past, I don’t believe there are any specific positions outside of goalkeeper, defender, midfielder, and forward. And it relates totally to which vertical space they occupy. For instance some would call Joao Cancelo a wingback, I’d just say he is a midfielder because he is always in the midfield. Any other specific definition just gets overly defined, ‘Cancelo isn’t a fullback, he is a complete inverted wingback’.

so to answer your question @SirBalon- I don’t know 

Makélélé and Busquets don’t play extremely deep. They have/had a way of interpreting the game and expressed that on the field. Pirlo for example didn’t even start his career in the position he eventually tied himself down to and which due to his lack of athleticism, required runners looking out for his forays past his midfield colleagues. With that I’m not looking to disrespect Andrea at all. That’s what he was capable of and his skills in other areas were so great that coaches executed compensations for this with other colleagues on the pitch.

A defensive midfielder isn’t there just to protect the back line. That player reads his midfield colleagues and adjusts accordingly whilst his colleagues can work more freely so as to deliver to what’s in front.

I get what you’re saying though and it’s an eternal argument that consistently turns up. But all great teams have a responsible midfielder that thinks about what’s behind them as a priority and not the inverse.

What you do have are those “box-to-box” midfielders. That term is also very disputable as once again we’re talking how an individual interprets and executes his game.

In my opinion where the error is sometimes made is with leadership qualities from a midfielder. No matter what, they get labelled with the term “defensive midfielder” when many times they’re not.

Players get functions (instructions) from head coaches. In most cases there is one or even two midfielders that sit (more times than not depending on how the game is going) in front of the back line.

[Cicero]

Makelele as a pure defensive midfielder by definition. Sitting and protecting the backline. 

Went with Lothar Matthaüs given he could do that job + more. 

[OrangeKhrush]

I went with Vieira he was a game changer

[Spike]

25 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Makélélé and Busquets don’t play extremely deep. They have/had a way of interpreting the game and expressed that on the field. Pirlo for example didn’t even start his career in the position he eventually tied himself down to and which due to his lack of athleticism, required runners looking out for his forays past his midfield colleagues. With that I’m not looking to disrespect Andrea at all. That’s what he was capable of and his skills in other areas were so great that coaches executed compensations for this with other colleagues on the pitch.

A defensive midfielder isn’t there just to protect the back line. That player reads his midfield colleagues and adjusts accordingly whilst his colleagues can work more freely so as to deliver to what’s in front.

I get what you’re saying though and it’s an eternal argument that consistently turns up. But all great teams have a responsible midfielder that thinks about what’s behind them as a priority and not the inverse.

What you do have are those “box-to-box” midfielders. That term is also very disputable as once again we’re talking how an individual interprets and executes his game.

In my opinion where the error is sometimes made is with leadership qualities from a midfielder. No matter what, they get labelled with the term “defensive midfielder” when many times they’re not.

Players get functions (instructions) from head coaches. In most cases there is one or even two midfielders that sit (more times than not depending on how the game is going) in front of the back line.

Well I think if continue down the definitions rabbit hole we will talk in circles, so let’s just agree we are discussing a midfielder, willing and capable of doing the dirty work of winning back possession. In that case, I’d say Xabi Alonso. 
 

I would also amend the list to have Esteban Cambiasso, Paul Scholes (a foul is still defending), Casemiro, Javier Maschersno, Daniele de Rossi, Luka Modric, and if you like Frank Lampard, Steven Gerard, Michael Ballack, Bastian Schweinsteiger, Phillipp Lahm, Javier Zanetti, were all capable.

[Spike]

55 minutes ago, Danny said:

My lifetime it's Busquets.

Also players like Keane and Vieira were much closer to box to box type midfielders than holding midfielders

But he didn’t say ‘holding midfielder’ he said ‘defensive midfielder’. Is a box to box player not defensive?  this is what I mean we I say we should avoid getting bogged down in arbitrary definitions. 

[Danny]

Just now, Spike said:

But he didn’t say ‘holding midfielder’ he said ‘defensive midfielder’. Is a box to box player not defensive?  this is what I mean we I say we should avoid getting bogged down in arbitrary definitions. 

There is an argument to what you're saying as TAA, James and Walker all played RWB last season but all played it differently.

[Spike]

2 minutes ago, Danny said:

There is an argument to what you're saying as TAA, James and Walker all played RWB last season but all played it differently.

Agreed. I’d even say that Walker and Alexandar-Arnold play more in the midfield than defence, their jobs being more possession oriented . Whereas James often plays as a third centreback and is a bit reserved in the midfield in comparison.

[SirBalon]

14 minutes ago, Spike said:

Well I think if continue down the definitions rabbit hole we will talk in circles, so let’s just agree we are discussing a midfielder, willing and capable of doing the dirty work of winning back possession. In that case, I’d say Xabi Alonso. 
 

I would also amend the list to have Esteban Cambiasso, Paul Scholes (a foul is still defending), Casemiro, Javier Maschersno, Daniele de Rossi, Luka Modric, and if you like Frank Lampard, Steven Gerard, Michael Ballack, Bastian Schweinsteiger, Phillipp Lahm, Javier Zanetti, were all capable.

Yeah, but those fouls don’t define the player unless you're Materazzi. They define their function, their role due to their talents or particulars about their athleticism.

Diego Maradona wasn’t the same as Falcão mate.

[Danny]

3 minutes ago, Spike said:

Agreed. I’d even say that Walker and Alexandar-Arnold play more in the midfield than defence, their jobs being more possession oriented . Whereas James often plays as a third centreback and is a bit reserved in the midfield in comparison.

Yeah Walker is normally used in recovery for City, just has blistering pace. But he makes a lot of underlapped runs and passes between the striker and the winger, whereas TAA is essentially an attacking midfielder who has to defend, but Klopp will have Fabinho and Henderson to try and cover that gap.

[Spike]

2 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Yeah, but those fouls don’t define the player unless you're Materazzi. They define their function, their role due to their talents or particulars about their athleticism.

Diego Maradona wasn’t the same as Falcão mate.

? 
I never equated Maradona to Falcao. Yeah think you’re stretching what I’m saying to a ludicrous extreme. 

[SirBalon]

9 minutes ago, Spike said:

But he didn’t say ‘holding midfielder’ he said ‘defensive midfielder’. Is a box to box player not defensive?  this is what I mean we I say we should avoid getting bogged down in arbitrary definitions. 

Holding midfielder is a defensive midfielder. Actually, that may be my fault on the definition although for example in Spain or Italy they’re called a “pivote”.

I was about to reference the EA Sports FIFA game but ffs...

[Spike]

6 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Holding midfielder is a defensive midfielder. Actually, that may be my fault on the definition although for example in Spain or Italy they’re called a “pivote”.

I was about to reference the EA Sports FIFA game but ffs...

I fully disagree. I think I have less static definitions than you, that’s fine. I just don’t see the point the anal analysis of ‘positions’. A midfielder is a midfielder, regardless of style or approach.
I’d even say that Maradona was a forward because that was what he did, but it’s just asinine definitions. If you disagree that’s ok, it doesn’t really matter, the player was the player.

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, Spike said:

I fully disagree. I think I have less static definitions than you, that’s fine. I just don’t see the point the anal analysis of ‘positions’. A midfielder is a midfielder, regardless of style or approach.
I’d even say that Maradona was a forward because that was what he did, but it’s just asinine definitions. If you disagree that’s ok, it doesn’t really matter, the player was the player.

That really is simplifying the game then mate. Maradona was definitely a midfielder. There are functions depending on the attributes of the players the coach has at his disposal. Hence why coaches want certain players.

Answer me this... Why did Mourinho dislike the fact he had Cristiano Ronaldo and Gareth Bale?

[Spike]

One of the things I like about ice hockey is they don’t have over definitions of each position. A centre is a centre, a left wing is a left wing, instead of saying a player is an ‘inverted 200ft left wing forechecker’ they will just say his position and describe his strengths. Left wing that is responsible defensively. 
 

it is a very ‘football’ to over define positions.

[Spike]

2 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

That really is simplifying the game then mate. Maradona was definitely a midfielder. There are functions depending on the attributes of the players the coach has at his disposal. Hence why coaches want certain players.

Answer me this... Why did Mourinho dislike the fact he had Cristiano Ronaldo and Gareth Bale?

It isn’t simplifying at all. Instead of applying pre-made definitions to something it forces you to look at a bigger picture. It doesn’t matter if Maradona is a midfielder or forward, it doesn’t mean anything. So is Wayne Rooney.  But what was Maradona good at? Dribbling, shooting, passing, creating space by drawing defenders in, he was quick and deceptively strong. You have to analyse what a player is instead of applying a label. What was Rooney good at? Pressing, shooting, tackling, being an energetic menace. They occupied a similar position of the pitch but if you called them both second-strikers or whatever you’d think they were similar because you’ve applied a very specific definition to both of them. So I circumvent this by just explaining what vertical area they mainly spend their time in, both were more concerned with forward areas than midfield or defence. Players are much more dynamic and interesting that more-defined positions

[Azeem]

Agree with Spike, positions are not as rigged anymore. With now 5 substitutions that'll be more the case

To answer the question: Busquets

[Dr. Gonzo]

Makalele

[Fusion]

Dunno about the best but I will go with the one I enjoyed watching the most when I was young, Redondo.

[DeadLinesman]

31 minutes ago, Fusion said:

Dunno about the best but I will go with the one I enjoyed watching the most when I was young, Redondo.

There was something in the air that night, the stars were bright, REDONDO.

[Danny]

@Spike

 

[Azeem]

Iniesta dependent wide threat: Messi