The Artful Dodger Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 What I'm angry about is this hijacking of everything by the liberal 'left' who've basically been Tory clones for a generation and are largely responsible for this mess. If we revoke article 50, can Brexit and just think everything will be fine then we're in for something far worse. We can't carry on as we are doing, people cannot afford to live decent lives anymore even when they decent full time work, it's absurd how this country has become totally reliant on debt and a good living standard has become the preserve of the wealthy. This bubble, largely centre round London but evidenced elsewhere, seem to think because they've been very fortunate and have a great life that we shouldn't alter things too much. They see the EU as something welcome and fly flags about because it's really just symbolic, they don't care about what really effects people's lives. They won't vote Corbyn, that's for sure, and his Labour are the only decent chance we've had changing things in long time, might be the only one for a while to. So whilst the EU vote result did upset me at first, I can't help but feel there's a hell of a lot of the entitled, well off class who won't learn anything from why it happened, so perhaps, just perhaps we need the jolt of exiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverted Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 20 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said: What I'm angry about is this hijacking of everything by the liberal 'left' who've basically been Tory clones for a generation and are largely responsible for this mess. If we revoke article 50, can Brexit and just think everything will be fine then we're in for something far worse. We can't carry on as we are doing, people cannot afford to live decent lives anymore even when they decent full time work, it's absurd how this country has become totally reliant on debt and a good living standard has become the preserve of the wealthy. This bubble, largely centre round London but evidenced elsewhere, seem to think because they've been very fortunate and have a great life that we shouldn't alter things too much. They see the EU as something welcome and fly flags about because it's really just symbolic, they don't care about what really effects people's lives. They won't vote Corbyn, that's for sure, and his Labour are the only decent chance we've had changing things in long time, might be the only one for a while to. So whilst the EU vote result did upset me at first, I can't help but feel there's a hell of a lot of the entitled, well off class who won't learn anything from why it happened, so perhaps, just perhaps we need the jolt of exiting. I agree that some kind of a recession is inevitable but going into a No-Deal scenario and going into a recession bordering on a depression benefits absolutely nobody except the small cabal of Brexiteers. The leftist priority should be to protect public services and to facilitate job creation. Even with a Corbyn government, No Deal would be the worst scenario by those criteria. No Labour policy is at all impeded by EU membership. The EU is a neoliberal institution by origin but nonetheless it is useful. Even as a Marxist, to me the point should always be to pick the progressive option, and right now the EU is the progressive option. Brexit can only by definition be a regressive step. Look around the world - where are the well-functioning social economies? Almost all in the EU, or extremely closely associated with it. If we were at a Denmark or Finland level, then I'd say it's time to start thinking about the constraints of the EU, but whilst we still have so much space to improve within the current framework, our priority should be reforming our internal problems and then looking outward. I agree that the EU has done absolutely reprehensible things but even then, it doesn't always need to be the EU of Wolfgang Schauble. The EU merely gives expression to the consensus of the major nations - all it takes is a wave of serious social movements to emerge in Germany, Britain and France, and the nature of the EU would change substantially. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Batard Posted March 25, 2019 Administrator Share Posted March 25, 2019 1 hour ago, The Artful Dodger said: Want to bet me I'm wrong? There may well have been some poorer people there but it was largely a march of middle class people, with middle class interests. Nothing wrong with that but this attempt to paint it as some sort of mandate to unilaterally revoke article 50 is disgusting. That is quite the sweeping statement. And as I stated earlier, with no codified constitution the referendum was a farce from the beginning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Artful Dodger Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 (edited) Well yes, the referendum should never have taken place but it has now, you can't unilaterally decide to cancel it without, at the very least, going back to the people again. It's a ridiculous situation to be in and sadly there is no way back now, the country is in for decades of strife whatever the outcome. Edited March 25, 2019 by The Artful Dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverted Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) A bit disturbing to hear Brexiteers taking their position out of Anders Breivik's manifesto. This is Nazi rhetoric right out of the 1930s, except they called it "Cultural Bolshevism". Not long after the senior Tory Brexiteers called themselves the Grand Wizards. They're not really trying to hide it are they. Edited March 26, 2019 by Inverted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFC Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 Lol https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47717397 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 2 hours ago, MUFC said: Lol https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47717397 Unbelievable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan Posted March 27, 2019 Administrator Share Posted March 27, 2019 7 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Unbelievable... Embarrassingly so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan Posted March 27, 2019 Administrator Share Posted March 27, 2019 May's told the 1922 Committee she won't be there for the next phase of Brexit negotiations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverted Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 So we're all bound by an outdated and corrupted vote two years ago, and the Tories are absolutely bound by manifesto promises from a year ago, but we just have to accept whatever Prime Minister they pick out out of a constantly shuffling deck of posh racist freaks without a new vote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ Posted March 27, 2019 Subscriber Share Posted March 27, 2019 Just processing this announcement but I have to say if May is putting her own job on the line to prevent a No Deal outcome then in this at least, you have to say fair play to her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Artful Dodger Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 12 minutes ago, RandoEFC said: Just processing this announcement but I have to say if May is putting her own job on the line to prevent a No Deal outcome then in this at least, you have to say fair play to her. I think you're giving her too much credit there. She's putting her job on the line to protect her own 'deal'. Parliament blocked no deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairy In Boots Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 1 hour ago, The Artful Dodger said: I think you're giving her too much credit there. She's putting her job on the line to protect her own 'deal'. Parliament blocked no deal. Parliament evidently don’t understand memes. Coincidentally how are our continental friends finding the new Belgian overlords? Youth unemployment much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverted Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 33 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said: Parliament evidently don’t understand memes. Coincidentally how are our continental friends finding the new Belgian overlords? Youth unemployment much? I can't for the life of me work out what this post means. Like even any one of the three sentences in isolation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 21 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said: I think you're giving her too much credit there. She's putting her job on the line to protect her own 'deal'. Parliament blocked no deal. Parliament blocked a no deal in a non-binding vote that doesn't really have any impact on what will actually happen. That vote doesn't mean there won't be no deal if there's no alternative deal with the EU in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Artful Dodger Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 No chance of No deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverted Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 (edited) The ERG could have got Brexit today, and at a time when for once there seems some tangible chance of it not happening, they've blown it once again. How many times do the Brexiteers need to reject Brexit before we give up. The vote has been honoured - the government (elected by the people in a fresh election) has to the best of its limited abilities negotiated a way out, and the leading Brexiteers have sabotaged and rejected these efforts. Edited March 29, 2019 by Inverted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honey Honey Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Inverted said: The ERG could have got Brexit today, and at a time when for once there seems some tangible chance of it not happening, they've blown it once again. How many times do the Brexiteers need to reject Brexit before we give up. The vote has been honoured - the government (elected by the people in a fresh election) has to the best of its limited abilities negotiated a way out, and the leading Brexiteers have sabotaged and rejected these efforts. Not quite. 28 ERGers voted No. If they voted Aye it would have been Ayes 314 Noes 316. It could have also passed if the Labour MP's who told their electorates they would pass Brexit "honoured" the vote as you put it. Cheap to let them off and not the ERG if you think the problem is the ERG not honouring the "best" negotiation. May is constantly haunted by the 2017 election when she tried to increase the number of her supporters in parliament to counteract the ERG and ended up weaker instead! In addition many of the ERG voted for the deal because they've got their eyes set on replacing May and guiding the final outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverted Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Harvsky said: Not quite. 28 ERGers voted No. If they voted Aye it would have been Ayes 314 Noes 316. It could have also passed if the Labour MP's who told their electorates they would pass Brexit "honoured" the vote as you put it. Cheap to let them off and not the ERG if you think the problem is the ERG not honouring the "best" negotiation. May is constantly haunted by the 2017 election when she tried to increase the number of her supporters in parliament to counteract the ERG and ended up weaker instead! In addition many of the ERG voted for the deal because they've got their eyes set on replacing May and guiding the final outcome. I didn't mean exactly that the ERG is to blame for MV3 not passing, but more generally that if the ERG was sincerely committed to Brexit, we could have left the EU today. Today was especially bad because on one of the most dangerous moments for the Brexit project they still couldn't even present a united front. Instead they've overplayed their hand, continually let zealotry and power squabbles get to them, and unless we sleep walk into No Deal, Brexit is not likely to occur soon. And as for Labour, I don't really give a shit. Labour is the opposition and has offered its own account of what their Brexit will look (or would have looked) like, and that was reflected in the Indicative Votes. In fact had the Labour whip been followed the Customs Union motion would have passed. If the people wanted a strong Tory government capable of passing its Brexit plan despite massive defections, they should have voted one in. Instead, they voted to deny the government that ability. If the people who wanted Brexit, from the senior leaders to the individual voter, had the will to make it so, we would be out. But deep down, they either aren't keeping up with events, or their hearts aren't really in it, and it's up to the rest of us to sort out the mess as painlessly as possible. Edited March 29, 2019 by Inverted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan Posted March 29, 2019 Administrator Share Posted March 29, 2019 48 minutes ago, Harvsky said: In addition many of the ERG voted for the deal because they've got their eyes set on replacing May and guiding the final outcome. I find this quite crass and callous and just goes to show these kinds of MPs only have their best interests at heart, as opposed to the country's, which I'm sure they all claim, or will go on to do so at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honey Honey Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, Inverted said: I didn't mean exactly that the ERG is to blame for MV3 not passing, but more generally that if the ERG was sincerely committed to Brexit, we could have left the EU today. I'm not convinced that the 28 are insincere about leaving itself. 1 minute ago, Stan said: I find this quite crass and callous and just goes to show these kinds of MPs only have their best interests at heart, as opposed to the country's, which I'm sure they all claim, or will go on to do so at some point. Would they be wrong? What is in a countries interest can only ever be a personal take. If you want to lead the country then at least part of you must believe that what you want to do is in the countries interest. When you lack support for your position in politics you must engineer it. Engineer a general election, a 2nd referendum, no deal, May's deal, all of this has been going on. A minority government is the most exposed to this kind of behaviour which is why the impasse is lasting as long as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan Posted March 29, 2019 Administrator Share Posted March 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, Harvsky said: I'm not convinced that the 28 are insincere about leaving itself. Would they be wrong? What is in a countries interest can only ever be a personal take. If you want to lead the country then at least part of you must believe that what you want to do is in the countries interest. When you lack support for your position in politics you must engineer it. Engineer a general election, a 2nd referendum, no deal, May's deal, all of this has been going on. A minority government is the most exposed to this kind of behaviour which is why the impasse is lasting as long as it is. Yeah but when you've lambasted and slaughtered a deal for so long, rejecting it officially and then suddenly agree to it just because the current PM has vowed to leave to get enough votes, it just smacks of hypocrisy and cynically points to one thing. Obviously it's a lot of May's doing but she's not totally blameless for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverted Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 The "Change Party" has made its first statement as a new party - to express its strenuous opposition to a General Election. Do they not want... things to change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairy In Boots Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 On 27/03/2019 at 22:47, Inverted said: I can't for the life of me work out what this post means. Like even any one of the three sentences in isolation. Memes is a dig at EU copyright law article 13. The second sentence is suggesting that Belgian bureaucracy now holds sway in Europe which it does. And the third is a jibe about youth unemployment in Eu countries which is high, because news flash the EU us shite. 23 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said: No chance of No deal. Think 50/50 now as a GE is also very likely. Personally just go no deal for me. 44 minutes ago, Stan said: I find this quite crass and callous and just goes to show these kinds of MPs only have their best interests at heart, as opposed to the country's, which I'm sure they all claim, or will go on to do so at some point. No the best thing was to reject the utter dog turd of a deal. May is a hard working lady who has great capacity to keep picking herself up and soldiering on, however she has absolutely no skil at negotiation and that’s become apparent. Also just going to leave this here for Cark, middle aged champagne socialist EU loving gammon twat & a Brexiteer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairy In Boots Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, Cannabis said: Careful @Fairy In Boots, might get called a bigot for that I’ll get called a bigot anyway most likely. Patel on the money, also helps that I’d have an illegitimate child with her given a cunt hair of a chance. Edited March 30, 2019 by Fairy In Boots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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