UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Honey Honey]

56 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I'm afraid not.

There are FACTS as to what we are leaving behind with the biggest and most powerful trading market on the planet with all of its rules and regulations we've participated in making. There are FACTS as to how the WTO works and how we stand to lose by comparison.

There are FACTS on the Good Friday Agreement, an international peace treaty that shouldn't be broken.

I haven't got time because this is a busy period of the year for me and I work tomorrow. But I am aware of all the facts, of all the benefits of staying in the EU and the wishing of what could happen if we leave where a good prospect is concerned.  Don't patronise me and my change of viewpoint on Brexit. 

You state your view as I have been doing wit mine.

That is just facts of what procedural positions we no longer partake in, there are also procedural positions and competencies parliament would take on, be it domestically or in international bodies. How do you weigh up the difference between the two sides without making assumptions about their potential economic cost or benefit or bringing your own societal values into the weighting? You have to. We all do and that is what the debate has contained for years. That is why it is so polarizing, there is no right or wrong answer. That's politics in general.

I also don't quite understand mentioning the WTO as a comparison in the grand scheme of your argument either when you are calling for a referendum on whether or not we should actually start FTA negotiations. 

After weighing everything up if you think we are better off in then that is fine but don't pretend there is nothing to be weighed up and without assumption and values.

[Kowabunga]

13 hours ago, SirBalon said:

One thing both Brexiters and Remainers can agree on is that this government is the worst one in living memory and possibly (I would say with certainty) is the worst in the history of the United Kingdom as a union.

How Labour aren't a million light years ahead of any prediction poll relating to a future General Election is astounding and Labour members have only their leader and their present left-wing extremist setup to blame. 

What the UK doesn't need right now are extremes on either side of the spectrum... Much less liars selling unicorns to the fantasists. 

We have the facts, we have the only truth available and I only wish someone with weight (doesn't seem to exist) could come forward and take control.

Most probably May won't be remembered fondly, but hey! it's not like she has good cards. The foolishness on Brexit is all on Cameron and his will to turn petty party politics into geopolitical earthquakes leaving his country at the mercy of foreign third parties and native scalpers.

In the context of decomposition of socialdemocracy in Europe, I don't think Labour is doing "that" bad. Not bad at all, actually. But as much as Corbyn is a convinced brexiteer, his party must assess scenarios comparing the crude reality of Brexit and the virtues of the limited, but still very relevant, extra manoeuvrability of the UK inside the EU club and the prospects of change... but under a left-wing approach, instead of under those lazy blairite-tinted -lasses many labour remainers have in mind.

[Honey Honey]

5 hours ago, Kowabunga said:

Most probably May won't be remembered fondly, but hey! it's not like she has good cards. The foolishness on Brexit is all on Cameron and his will to turn petty party politics into geopolitical earthquakes leaving his country at the mercy of foreign third parties and native scalpers.

It is more than just internal party conflict. David Cameron promised the referendum to the public in order to win votes and was also seeking a means to end the immigration headache he was receiving at the polls. Cameron remember couldn't even win the 2010 election outright. Socially liberal conservatism did not have reach as most social liberals didn't get their values from private schools and posh universities where Tory economics is patched onto social liberalism.

[Kowabunga]

4 hours ago, Harvsky said:

It is more than just internal party conflict. David Cameron promised the referendum to the public in order to win votes and was also seeking a means to end the immigration headache he was receiving at the polls. Cameron remember couldn't even win the 2010 election outright. Socially liberal conservatism did not have reach as most social liberals didn't get their values from private schools and posh universities where Tory economics is patched onto social liberalism.

Still playing a lose-lose-meh russian roulette instead of just "ruling the void", as the rest of mainstream european governments.

Question:

Is the UK ripe for a mass movement of this sort within its brexit camp already or the video is purely anecdotal?

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Kowabunga

[Honey Honey]

23 minutes ago, Kowabunga said:

Still playing a lose-lose-meh russian roulette instead of just "ruling the void", as the rest of mainstream european governments.

Question:

Is the UK ripe for a mass movement of this sort within its brexit camp already or the video is purely anecdotal?

 

Yellow vests in Britain is at the moment largely far right sort of stuff. A fashion for the Tommy Robinson street protesters who have a history of taking to the streets anyway. It's a long way off becoming more but never say never.

[6666]

These knobheads talking about "taking our country back" and "the EU's gonna take away our democracy" really are some thick bastards.

[The Artful Dodger]

The country is seriously finished. It's been in a decline for nearly 50 years but this will just expedite the issue. May you live in interesting times they say...twats.

[Inverted]

Looking forward to seeing this horrid country broken up and resigned to the dustbin of history within the next few decades. 

I used to be convinced Independence was too economically disruptive to be worth it, but considering that the UK government is now hell-bent on introducing a new anti-immigrant regime, its clear that UK government policy is determined to intentionally wreck the Scottish economy.

We need immigrants. Generally, we're happy to have them and consider them part of ourselves. When the UK government takes Scottish residents and deports them to "where they came from", they're robbing us of fellow Scots who enrich our lives and communities. They won't even allow the devolved government to cover the settlement fees for migrants.

The signs were there when they made a point of stressing that NI would be ensured a competitive advantage against us in any Brexit arrangement.

Then you have our MPs being told to go home in the Commons.

I'd rather take a short term economic hit than be stuck for the rest of my life in a country where the government makes a point of actively sabotaging the economy I live in, and where the representatives I elect are seen as unwelcome in "our" legislature. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Inverted

[Kowabunga]

2 hours ago, Harvsky said:

Yellow vests in Britain is at the moment largely far right sort of stuff. A fashion for the Tommy Robinson street protesters who have a history of taking to the streets anyway. It's a long way off becoming more but never say never.

Well, I suspect a potential second referendum overturning Brexit may precisely bring this sort of movement to the mainstream "bigly". The ultimate antipolitical hellhole. And I suspect May knows this.

[Fairy In Boots]

3 hours ago, Inverted said:

Looking forward to seeing this horrid country broken up and resigned to the dustbin of history within the next few decades. 

Weird world welcome back. 

2 hours ago, Kowabunga said:

Well, I suspect a potential second referendum overturning Brexit may precisely bring this sort of movement to the mainstream "bigly". The ultimate antipolitical hellhole. And I suspect May knows this.

A second referendum would still deliver leave, although I suspect they would split the options to split the leave vote. A Sky News straw poll of a 1000 isn’t a national indicator, they’re heavily biased anyway. The national mood hasn’t changed, the whining about Brexit within the media sphere of the M25 is precisely that.

You’re vastly overestimating the significance of the yellow vests in the U.K. There would be righteous anger however if it was overturned but it would be real middle England not Tommy Robinson. He’s a bit of a overestimated pantomime villain for the media to generate click bait. Most of his followers that actually put boots on the ground are ex football hooligans just desperate to belong to something. A generous estimate of his support would be at best 10-15k actually travelers, 2-3k locals turning out when he’s in the area and 1/2m sympathetic online. Hardly mainstream because those sympathetic are probably just pissed off about grooming or terrorism. I very much doubt he could win a seat in Parliament, Politically he’s probably about as important as lord bucket head

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Weird world welcome back. 

A second referendum would still deliver leave, although I suspect they would split the options to split the leave vote. A Sky News straw poll of a 1000 isn’t a national indicator, they’re heavily biased anyway. The national mood hasn’t changed, the whining about Brexit within the media sphere of the M25 is precisely that.

You’re vastly overestimating the significance of the yellow vests in the U.K. There would be righteous anger however if it was overturned but it would be real middle England not Tommy Robinson. He’s a bit of a overestimated pantomime villain for the media to generate click bait. Most of his followers that actually put boots on the ground are ex football hooligans just desperate to belong to something. A generous estimate of his support would be at best 10-15k actually travelers, 2-3k locals turning out when he’s in the area and 1/2m sympathetic online. Hardly mainstream because those sympathetic are probably just pissed off about grooming or terrorism. I very much doubt he could win a seat in Parliament, Politically he’s probably about as important as lord bucket head

Bet you're well pleased no deal looks likely.

[Fairy In Boots]

8 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Bet you're well pleased no deal looks likely.

Yep, I don’t want to pay £39 billion & I’m happy to be on WTO terms with the EU. The EU blinked the other day by agreeing a process for haulage, air travel, driving, residence rites etc all being agreed in the event of a no deal. The world will not end. 

I think you’ll see a 6-12 month small recession or slow down next year but I think that won’t be limited to the U.K. and a direct result of Brexit anyway. We would have probably caught some kind of initial financial cold purely because of uncertainty but I think Germany will be far more concerned at this point about a No deal than we are. 

The British press who’ve been largely bias towards remain have been absolutely disgraceful for 2.1/2 years now as have much of the establishment, it’s been the media equivalent of a toddler tantrum, and had probably resulted in far more division than was necessary. 

A further point on the yellow yests, or basically protesters in hi viz (because that’s what they do, look at pro eu demos) and the “telling Anna Soubry she’s a traitor” I thought fan fucking tastic, it couldn’t have happened to a more miserable anti democratic cunt.  You only have to look at the way Kate Hoey has been treated by the Labour Party and pro remain lefty supporters for the last 2 years to think it’s about time someone told these screaming parliamentary remainers to fuck off. By and large leavers have been called everything under the sun and haven’t wavered so to watch someone give it back was satisfying. 

Also it’s fair to mention these blokes weren’t the brightest, but she’s still a cunt.

She says she will resign if No deal, that’s music to the grass roots ears. Stupid women

Edited December 20, 2018 by Fairy In Boots

[The Artful Dodger]

Now that madness has completely prevailed and No Deal seems likely I'm reluctantly in favour of a second vote of some sort, I'm not sure even with some sort of deal or Remaining that Britain can actually be saved now. Our economy is entirely sustained on debt and will be hit by a crisis far worse than 2008 at some point or other. Anyone with any means or intellectual ability should be looking at their options to leave and I predict a serious brain drain over the next 5-10 years, culturally the damage has been done and I don't even know who I blame anymore. Leaving the EU, in the way it's being done, is just a symptom of something far worse in our country, the ideology of greedy selfism has been on the rise since the 80s and was exacerbated by the amorality and cynicism of Blair etc. Our politicians are, nearly without exception, manipulative liars who have absolutely no principles whatsoever.

It's a deeply sad time to be a young person in this country.

[SirBalon]

I'm still hoping to find the time to really place my opinion revolving facts and realistic projections for the UK in all of this Brexit madness.  The post I want to make would be long, but containing everything I've embedded myself in over the past 2 and a half years which took me from voting to leave, to understanding perfectly well that remaining (although not perfect due to the fact the EU is no celestial residence) is the best and ONLY option that offers the best for the United Kingdom.

What I can say with total assurance from my part and various people that I know, are extremely wealthy, owning or running all sorts of high end businesses, is that if we leave the European Union with NO-DEAL, I and many others are out of here.  Some of my friends and acquaintances are full on British (English) and are finding it hard to attain anything whatsoever that protects their future interests in terms of a No-Deal and being able to move to an EU member country.  I, like some others I know, have dual and even triple nationality (I thank my parents for handing me over the headache of maintaining two passports that I didn't comprehend when I was younger but my father always said that it may one day be very useful...).  I, my son and my wife will be able to move FREELY with no questions asked from any EU member state to the UK and back out whenever we wish.

But what's for sure is that I'll sell-up and move my family either to Spain or Italy.  I don't want to live in that type of environment or bring my child up in that manner, with that mantra.  It's the total opposite to where I believe people should be moving...

Being born here and understanding to perfection the social structure I've been brought up in.  There was always an underlying oddity I never really gave too much time for or credence.  Unfortunately, that rottenness has come through in the end and is even shared by the part of the establishment (those that govern, our politicians) has come through and is totally out in the open.

There is absolutely no doubt that the issue is freedom of movement here.  It's all about immigration for a large proportion of those that voted to leave (not all, but a large majority of that sector which will lie to you until you strip them bare and they show their true colours).  No other deal could've been acquired without the abolition of freedom of movement.

It's disgusting and shows a massive hypocrisy on what British culture purported itself as for so long.

I just feel sorry for the many Brits that don't feel that way.  There are many and are embarrassed, ashamed and sad.

[SirBalon]

 

[Honey Honey]

The government would fall within 48 hours of fumbling into no deal whilst it also can't get no deal through by design. 

I'm not sure all of the fuss is warranted. Some have said since day one that we should be prepping for no deal as a negotiation strategy. The largely remain establishment killed it within the first 2 months after the referendum. It has been resurrected by the remain mindset government to get the ERG to vote through May's deal.

The ERG have no idea how little power their views have.

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Yep, I don’t want to pay £39 billion & I’m happy to be on WTO terms with the EU.

Lol happy to be on WTO terms. Look how great the morons in charge have been negotiating with the EU. Those are our friends and the morons can’t work out a deal.

Now imagine our morons jumping into the WTO shark tank and trying to negotiate a free trade deal with China 

I’m well annoyed with the country’s leaders. I suspect my career prospects will never take me back home, assuming I want to make as much money as I can before I retire.

[SirBalon]

44 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Lol happy to be on WTO terms. Look how great the morons in charge have been negotiating with the EU. Those are our friends and the morons can’t work out a deal.

Now imagine our morons jumping into the WTO shark tank and trying to negotiate a free trade deal with China 

I’m well annoyed with the country’s leaders. I suspect my career prospects will never take me back home, assuming I want to make as much money as I can before I retire.

I can send you a few bucks if you send me some pictures wearing only Christmas socks. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I can send you a few bucks if you send me some pictures wearing only Christmas socks. 

Nah I’m quite comfy now I don’t need to get paid for that, but I would like to be able to get a similar paying job in the UK in the next 5 years so my future kids can be English. And the added bonus of me not having to worry about my kids being gunned down at school.

I’ll just send you those pics for fun

Edited December 20, 2018 by Dr. Gonzo

[SirBalon]

24 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Nah I’m quite comfy now I don’t need to get paid for that, but I would like to be able to get a similar paying job in the UK in the next 5 years so my future kids can be English. And the added bonus of me not having to worry about my kids being gunned down at school.

I’ll just send you those pics for fun

At the rate things are going in England, there’s nothing valuable about that at all mate.

What is land?

People make a nation, not what we step on.

 

As for the pictures... I’ll send you some in return of when I had a fad dressing up as a guinea pig. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

33 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

At the rate things are going in England, there’s nothing valuable about that at all mate.

What is land?

People make a nation, not what we step on.

 

As for the pictures... I’ll send you some in return of when I had a fad dressing up as a guinea pig. 

I want to give this a plus up arrow and also a laughy face at the same time. That should be an option

[Fairy In Boots]

You two are hilarious. 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.urbandictionary.com/define.php%3fterm=Remoaner&amp=true

no 3 is pertinent especially Balon, utterly embarrassing. I’d liken it to an Arsenal fan wanting Spurs to win the league, such a level of irrational defeatism it’s almost like some sort of bizarre Stockholm syndrome. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Fairy In Boots said:

You two are hilarious. 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.urbandictionary.com/define.php%3fterm=Remoaner&amp=true

no 3 is pertinent especially Balon, utterly embarrassing. I’d liken it to an Arsenal fan wanting Spurs to win the league, such a level of irrational defeatism it’s almost like some sort of bizarre Stockholm syndrome. 

So you think his IQ is below 4? If so, get fucked - you're the one telling people to be blindly optimistic about a situation that's largely unknown and is likely to cause a recession that's going to be pretty painful for a lot of people. Based on what? Optimism that Britain's economy can be as strong as it was before the war?

Optimism is for suckers. Expect the worst, if it doesn't come then that's a big relief. And if it does come, you'll be prepared.

[Fairy In Boots]

15 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

So you think his IQ is below 4? If so, get fucked - you're the one telling people to be blindly optimistic about a situation that's largely unknown and is likely to cause a recession that's going to be pretty painful for a lot of people. Based on what? Optimism that Britain's economy can be as strong as it was before the war?

Optimism is for suckers. Expect the worst, if it doesn't come then that's a big relief. And if it does come, you'll be prepared.

No it’s fairly obvious he’s not the literal description of that entire definition. There used to be a thing called common sense when people deduced various things and didn’t take everything so seriously, now though with outrage culture we have this practice of latching onto small parts and taking it literally to justify outrage or nullify a or several points. 

What “with an IQ lower than 4 means” on this topic they’re being a bit stupid, it is after all urban dictionary it’s taking the piss. 

Also does the world rewards those “who plan for the worst”, did Jeff bezos wake up and think “i’ll consolidate today because shit might go south” on his way to richest guy on earth?  Did Liverpool win the champions league because “at 3-0 down we should do damage limitation”? 

Brexiters know it’s a risk but we felt to persist was long term decline anyway so fuck it we’ll have a go. History is made by those that do that. 

We’ll be fine long term, we literally have a different ethos to the rest of Europe which gives us advantages. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2018: Feels > Reals

Please stop making comparisons with international politics to football, they're not really applicable. Worst that happens when a football manager fucks up is some fans are disappointed. Maybe they lose their job. Worst that happens when a politician fucks up is people lose shitloads of money and/or die.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Dr. Gonzo