UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Fairy In Boots]

On 06/09/2019 at 18:09, The Artful Dodger said:

Just look at turn outs in the UK city protests. They're white, priveleged people generally. Nothing wrong with that but it's true. 

Remain doesn't speak about what happens after we remain because most of them were happy with how it was. Well sadly for you, things aren't ever going back to how they were. The bloodsucking middle class have had their day in this country. 

Lol

On 07/09/2019 at 11:47, LFCMike said:

And yet tell that to people who voted leave in these poor Northern towns and they'll trot out the terrorist sympathiser amongst other shite they've read in the Daily Mail. They've now been fed the no deal rubbish from Johnson and that's all they want. They won't entertain any other option. There's loads in traditional Labour areas, such as where I live, that voted leave that say they won't vote Labour under Corbyn. They're absolutely nuts, I can't get my head around it.

Similarly I can’t get my head around anybody who thinks Corbyn being anywhere near power will be a good thing. Absolutely disaster if he gets in. 

On 07/09/2019 at 12:04, RandoEFC said:

It's insane. How anyone can vote for this Conservative government with Johnson at the helm is beyond me. 21 MPs sacrificed their entire careers this week to stop Boris Johnson from achieving his selfish goal of delivering Brexit at all costs because of the damage it would do to the country. Why else would they have done it? It certainly wasnt for personal gain because they've fucking decimated their own careers in the process. Boris's own brother left the party in a very public manner because he has taken the Conservative party in such a dark direction.

People can say what they want about Corbyn as a leader, he splits opinion but you cant say that he's as flat out unfit for office as Boris Johnson.

They sacrificed their careers by stiffling Johnson and the polls indicate that his support has grown from this. The middle ground has turned and are now backing Johnson. I base my assumptions on what I hear from the people I talk to and “I voted remain but I respect the result” are now “these remainers don’t realise we can’t negotiate a deal because we’ve handed leverage to the EU. We need an election and I’ll vote Boris to get a proper negotiation” 

They won’t be forgotten about, Labour are ducking an election because they know they’re fucked now. 

On 06/09/2019 at 20:14, Dr. Gonzo said:

He should know that if he lives in Merseyside - the original article from FT is behind a paywall (unfortunately) so I won't post that here but: https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/sun-boycott-on-merseyside-reduced-euroscepticism/26/08/ - Merseysiders are less Eurosceptic because we've been consuming less far right propaganda than the rest of the country since 1989. 

Nope they just swallowed lefty propaganda instead hence why they produce the likes of Dodger and people who think Corbyn would be a good idea. I know a bloke (in Liverpool) who’s got 3 houses that he rents out as his “pension plan” for his kids. His kids voted corbyn despite him telling them you’re future (these houses) would be under threat from a corbyn Government and the plan to give rental occupants the opportunity to buy houses at a knock down price. Such is the mental stupidity of the youth of that city. 

7 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

#WhatTheCountryVotedFor

That’s changed now that’s 3 years out of date. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Yeah I’ll trust FT over you mate 

[Fairy In Boots]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah I’ll trust FT over you mate 

No I’d agree boycotts of certain papers have/had an effect.

The perception has been that the Tories hate Liverpool since the 80’s under Thatcher. This has been played up by shitty Labour and liberal politicians ever since because it keeps the Tories down and affords them the monopoly of the local political scene. It’s that toxic for Tories now that the Echo which is a shit rag in its own rite attacked McVey in the recent leadership contest because they didn’t want Liverpool associated with Concervatives. 

The reality is she(thatcher) treated it as she did much of the other industrial areas of the country by letting what she perceived as declining industries die and Liverpudlians are more sensitive than most. No doubt plenty will fire back on this topic but can you really say she showed favouritism to Hull, Manchester, Sunderland over Liverpool? No they (scousers) just whinge more. 

And shifting to continental trade when you’re reliant as a city on your Atlantic facing port didn’t help either. Brexit might actually benefit increased trade from across the Atlantic, funny that they still vote remain. 

[LFCMike]

49 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

 

Similarly I can’t get my head around anybody who thinks Corbyn being anywhere near power will be a good thing. Absolutely disaster if he gets in. 

For the selfish, well off types maybe. Why anyone in these areas I talk about would vote a Johnson government, or any Tory government in for that matter after the last nine years is beyond me. 

[RandoEFC+]

46 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

That’s changed now that’s 3 years out of date. 

I can think of a few other opinions that might be out of date since 3 years ago too. 

I can only comment on the people I speak to as well, like you, and I barely know anyone who's in favour of Leave in the first place, and those that did vote to Leave give stupid reasons like "we were great once we'll be great again".

I don't hold anything against you voting for Leave, you've shared your experience of how our membership of the EU affected your employment and your life, and the lives of others in your circle.

We've reached a point now that 90% of people on both sides have been waiting for 3 years to go "HA, told you so" and are more likely to vote to make a point than to vote for what they genuinely think is better for the country, be that Remain or Leave, if there were a second referendum.

[Dr. Gonzo]

You’re right that Thatcher was anti-working class all around the UK, not just in Liverpool. But Tories still are anti-working class. She killed off industries and modern day Tories are happy to fuck off the rest of British businesses for the ultimate in austerity measures being taken.

But that’s just about the only part of that was that right. And that last paragraph is a laughable understanding how trade works 

I think in 10-15 years after we’ve left the EU we’ll rejoin it though. But after austerity, deregulation and privatisation has let the Americans buy up our social services and industries. And we’ll just really be the US’s backdoor into the EU - and as a less powerful member of the EU because of how we’ve fucked our standing in Europe up.

[The Artful Dodger]

The contempt for Thatcher is absolutely equalled across large swathes or the North and particularly the old mining towns. The economic arguments are in some ways valid, however the absolute scorn which tories had for society/communities meant the process was a horrific, ideological war rather than a staged process where subtite industries were created. 

That's the irony of the Brexit party etc. Run by a neo-thatcher zealot who believes in the creed thst destroyed many of these now ghost towns. We have to rid ourselves of the devotion to the free market. It is that that is really corroding the soul of Britain. In or out of the EU. 

[The Artful Dodger]

19 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Cool. But I think you’re probably more an enemy of the working class than me or @SirBalon

In what way? 

I'm simply pointing out that this idea that the EU is not some great force for good and is largely run in the interests of big business. I reluctantly accept its better to be jn that than have Farage or anyone like him with power but we need a left wing government most of all. 

You keep telling that me I'm a, 'fucking moron' for believing that for the left behind communities things aren't going to get much worse. They're a already at the point of desperation. The argument has no positive value and will lose, again, if put to a vote. 

Edited September 8, 2019 by The Artful Dodger

[Fairy In Boots]

4 hours ago, LFCMike said:

For the selfish, well off types maybe. Why anyone in these areas I talk about would vote a Johnson government, or any Tory government in for that matter after the last nine years is beyond me. 

It’s not even selfish we’ll off types, look at what happens when you start deincintivising the system. It collapses and nobody wins. 

Socialism and it’s aim of social equality are frequently misunderstood what you need is equality of opportunity (somewhat afforded by a capitalist system) not equality of outcome. What commies, Marxists and the like don’t understand because mainly they’ve never had to do it themselves is that equality of outcome or as corbyn calls it “for the many not the few” stops progress. 

For example Liverpool, why should they get to keep all the champions league money? Bury and Bolton need it more it should have been divided up. Come to think of it you should have sold Sarah and Mané and replaced them with cheaper players and others in the league did the same so that the 92 all start to compete on a level playing field with the PL. After all “for the many not the few”. No doubt you find this ridiculous and it is, so why are you prepared to do it with everyone else? 

3 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

I can think of a few other opinions that might be out of date since 3 years ago too. 

I can only comment on the people I speak to as well, like you, and I barely know anyone who's in favour of Leave in the first place, and those that did vote to Leave give stupid reasons like "we were great once we'll be great again".

I don't hold anything against you voting for Leave, you've shared your experience of how our membership of the EU affected your employment and your life, and the lives of others in your circle.

We've reached a point now that 90% of people on both sides have been waiting for 3 years to go "HA, told you so" and are more likely to vote to make a point than to vote for what they genuinely think is better for the country, be that Remain or Leave, if there were a second referendum.

That’s down to your social circles, we all surround ourselves with likeminded folk as we seek commonality rather than seeking out conflict. Confirmation bias in the media we consume etc etc. 

My job is daily interaction across 1/3 of the country, leave areas are still leave, remain hotbeds are still remain. If anything I’d say demographics probably may effect it more in marginal cities however I think centre right leaning are doubling douwn now with leave. My mate said to me earlier “I voted leave, but I’ve just go so tired of being told I’m “far right” etc that tbh I’ve just stopped watching all the tv shows etc where they take the piss out of Brexit relentlessly. 

Thats why it’s fractured and there’s no civil discourse anymore. Here’s a great example we know the referendum would suggest I’m not the only leaver on this forum, but it’s become  almost a Brexit lament thread where brexiteers fear to tread. 

3 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

You’re right that Thatcher was anti-working class all around the UK, not just in Liverpool. But Tories still are anti-working class. She killed off industries and modern day Tories are happy to fuck off the rest of British businesses for the ultimate in austerity measures being taken.

But that’s just about the only part of that was that right. And that last paragraph is a laughable understanding how trade works 

I think in 10-15 years after we’ve left the EU we’ll rejoin it though. But after austerity, deregulation and privatisation has let the Americans buy up our social services and industries. And we’ll just really be the US’s backdoor into the EU - and as a less powerful member of the EU because of how we’ve fucked our standing in Europe up.

No international trade is a complex thing, it encompasses various issues such as tariffs, agreements, supply and demand and ease of transaction, cost of transactions, transport, location. It’s utterly ridiculous of me to suggest that in the last 5 decades where our trade in import and exports has shifted more towards the continent rather than the rest of the world that a port city in the far side of the country facing away from this trade route may have suffered. 

Liverpool is more of a complex beast, I’d say that thatchers attitude of rip the plaster off now didn’t help many communities across the industrialised north and midlands but some didn’t help themselves. Liverpool had very aggressive trade unions and you see what she felt about those. 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Fairy In Boots

[The Artful Dodger]

We're not even close to equal opportunity in this country and it's getting worse. Nobody is proposing equal outcomes but simply an attempt to balance our lopsided society which is crumbling. 

[Fairy In Boots]

52 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

The contempt for Thatcher is absolutely equalled across large swathes or the North and particularly the old mining towns. The economic arguments are in some ways valid, however the absolute scorn which tories had for society/communities meant the process was a horrific, ideological war rather than a staged process where subtite industries were created. 

That's the irony of the Brexit party etc. Run by a neo-thatcher zealot who believes in the creed thst destroyed many of these now ghost towns. We have to rid ourselves of the devotion to the free market. It is that that is really corroding the soul of Britain. In or out of the EU. 

I think the cultural revolution that happened off the back of this probably makes some of us nostalgic about it. The mines for example, would you really want to go down them? My granddad worked peterlea and would roll in his grave about me voting Tory but I wouldn’t want to go down the fucking put tbh. 

The things is with the capitalist system is that it’s a tough system so when you lose you lose big but it also you win you win big. Miners, industrialist etc lost heavily in the 80’s & 90’s but I think manufacturing has become so much more leaner and specialist now that it’s recovered. Successive governments should have managed this transition more smoothly. I see far more interesting jobs in engineering now although they’re significantly more cleaner. It takes a while but we’re making huge strides in life science, aerospace, automotive etc. 

[LFCMike]

29 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

It’s not even selfish we’ll off types, look at what happens when you start deincintivising the system. It collapses and nobody wins. 

Socialism and it’s aim of social equality are frequently misunderstood what you need is equality of opportunity (somewhat afforded by a capitalist system) not equality of outcome. What commies, Marxists and the like don’t understand because mainly they’ve never had to do it themselves is that equality of outcome or as corbyn calls it “for the many not the few” stops progress. 

For example Liverpool, why should they get to keep all the champions league money? Bury and Bolton need it more it should have been divided up. Come to think of it you should have sold Sarah and Mané and replaced them with cheaper players and others in the league did the same so that the 92 all start to compete on a level playing field with the PL. After all “for the many not the few”. No doubt you find this ridiculous and it is, so why are you prepared to do it with everyone else? 

 

And do you think there's equality of opportunity? Really? And these poorer areas voting Tory is going to give them greater opportunity? Or will the gap continue to get wider?

There's no doubt there's too much money in the Premier League and more should filter its way down to the lower leagues, grassroots and to helping lower ticket prices

Edited September 8, 2019 by LFCMike

[Fairy In Boots]

1 minute ago, The Artful Dodger said:

We're not even close to equal opportunity in this country and it's getting worse. Nobody is proposing equal outcomes but simply an attempt to balance our lopsided society which is crumbling. 

Mate that’s bollocks I’m 34 I grew up on a council estate in a council house in Birmingham with a younger sister and a widowed mother who held a job down throughout the 90’s as a single parent to provide. I’m fully state education I’ve just been promoted at work over a lad that comes from a much more privileged background than me, has a full business degree etc.

I’m driving a +30kcar, I own my own home and I’m well into the higher tax threshold. The system provides opportunities for those with the bollocks to take them, i graft, I care, I put the hours and effort in I reap the rewards. Everyone I see who whines about it is usually doing the minimum and expects the system to just help them. 

Going on from the point I made to Rando about social circles, mine has whittled down from 13-15 of us to about 6 all from the same background all doing well and it’s because we play ball, the others 6 sit back and wait for it to come to them. 

You’re in a system where it costs £15 to register a business and then you whinge about opportunity. I have my day job and I buy and sell online, I turn over 80k  a year doing this 2-3 hours a night. I’ve used the proceeds to do up my house without nibbling at the equality, my mortgage will be done by the time I’m 42. I saved up doing shit jobs to get a deposit for a house, then I left a stable job to pursue a career.

At present I provide for 1 adult and 2 kids (3rd due Jan btw) and we run 2 cars enjoy a holiday abroad each year and have a few k set aside to pay for higher education for my kids. 

I never had a named bit of gear till I was 14 years old, frequently got called tramp or stig etc etc I grew up in more poverty than what’s classed as poverty now and I’m 100% on this the biggest obstacles are those we put in front of ourselves. 

[Fairy In Boots]

3 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

And do you think there's equality of opportunity? Really? And these poorer areas voting Tory is going to give them greater opportunity? Or will the gap continue to get wider?

There's no doubt there's too much money in the Premier League and more should filter its way down to the lower leagues, grassroots and to helping lower ticket prices

See above, there was a documentary about my estate in the 90’s showed 8kids in a 3 bed house living in squalor with bunk beds made out of disgarded wood. It shocked the nation and they commission a poverty report and new labour upped benefits off the back of it. Those that got on in life never took the benefits and worked,  the old working class is how I was brought up. A pride in earning your keep etc, we’re middle class now

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

In what way? 

I'm simply pointing out that this idea that the EU is not some great force for good and is largely run in the interests of big business. I reluctantly accept its better to be jn that than have Farage or anyone like him with power but we need a left wing government most of all. 

You keep telling that me I'm a, 'fucking moron' for believing that for the left behind communities things aren't going to get much worse. They're a already at the point of desperation. The argument has no positive value and will lose, again, if put to a vote. 

Because going along with people just because they’re half right, but not fully right and not really considering the consequences of their actions is helping lead people down a path where they’re getting fucked over by people who want to fuck them over and are happy to mislead them into fucking them over.

I actually think we have a lot in common politically. In fact, I know we do because I’ve seen us agree on a lot of issues.

And I agree there’s plenty about us remaining in the EU that should/could have been reformed. N fact, for us we really were the voice for smaller EU member states much of the time with a disproportionate amount of influence. And having MEPs like Farage was out way of not really appreciating that influence. The right thing to do rather than Brexit would have been to push ourselves as a disruptive force for reform in the EU than pulling out. Especially pulling it with no plan.

So going along with the “it can’t get any worse crowd” while a no deal Brexit would make things... worse for those people who really are the people in our country that don’t need to feel any sort of squeeze at all because, you are right - they’ve been left behind. But I also think the way the EU, as imperfect as it’s been, has been widely scapegoated because it’s a convenient enemy. And that scapegoating let’s them use it to pull the wool over the working classes’ eyes.

And imo playing a part in pulling the wool over their eyes while letting a far-right wet dream come true is being their enemy. Even if it comes from a place of understanding their feelings and emotions and wanting to support them.

I think at this stage, the plan for Brexit really should be “what causes the least amount of harm to us long term.” And it shouldn’t even be a partisan issue, tbh.

And in an another debate that’s less interesting and not worth anyone’s time really, I would suggest a certain member look into the route of a freight ship coming into the UK and see the number of ports they hit in the UK.

[Harry]

17 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

You’re right that Thatcher was anti-working class all around the UK, not just in Liverpool. But Tories still are anti-working class. She killed off industries and modern day Tories are happy to fuck off the rest of British businesses for the ultimate in austerity measures being taken.

But that’s just about the only part of that was that right. And that last paragraph is a laughable understanding how trade works 

I think in 10-15 years after we’ve left the EU we’ll rejoin it though. But after austerity, deregulation and privatisation has let the Americans buy up our social services and industries. And we’ll just really be the US’s backdoor into the EU - and as a less powerful member of the EU because of how we’ve fucked our standing in Europe up.

If the EU still exists in its present form by then. It really has some serious problems, and the effect of the single currency eliminating the ability of various poorer countries to return to prosperity in the manner typical (improving their economic competitiveness by a dropping currency) will continue to foster inequality throughout the EU economies and resentment towards Brussels and Germany from many quarters. The rise of the hard right has a lot more to do with people feeling left behind than is given credit in many quarters and it will continue to be an issue imo. Dismissing right wing positions as purely racially motivated is choosing to live in a fools paradise.

[SirBalon]

Brexit won't be and can't be fixed by anything politically ideological. Infact political ideology is the last thing this process needs and it's part of the reason nothing has been achieved uptil now on both sides.

The danger here is that whether you're a Corbynista or at the other end of the spectrum, if you're consumed by ideology it's like putting blinkers on a horse, that it makes you incapable of seeing reality due to you only being able to see the political narrative that you subscribe to and THAT will override absolutely everything that's on the table and requires the utmost of attention. When reality contradicts that political ideological narrative it will not let you concede to reality and leave you with only fixed talking points that go round in circles and DO NOT address the issue here which is what is achieved and gained by leaving the European Union in relation to the reasons put forward pre-2016.

When balanced people smell an ideologue they become scared because an ideologue goes onto do extremely unbalanced things by hiding behind a current political affair but with an ideological agenda in the background while not addressing the real issue. Reality is ignored because (quote, unquote) "they are trying to do the greater good" by condition of their political and social ideology. 

[Harry]

4 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Brexit won't be and can't be fixed by anything politically ideological. Infact political ideology is the last thing this process needs and it's part of the reason nothing has been achieved uptil now on both sides.

The danger here is that whether you're a Corbynista or at the other end of the spectrum, if you're consumed by ideology it's like putting blinkers on a horse, that it makes you incapable of seeing reality due to you only being able to see the political narrative that you subscribe to and THAT will override absolutely everything that's on the table and requires the utmost of attention. When reality contradicts that political ideological narrative it will not let you concede to reality and leave you with only fixed talking points that go round in circles and DO NOT address the issue here which is what is achieved and gained by leaving the European Union in relation to the reasons put forward pre-2016.

When balanced people smell an ideologue they become scared because an ideologue goes onto do extremely unbalanced things by hiding behind a current political affair but with an ideological agenda in the background while not addressing the real issue. Reality is ignored because (quote, unquote) "they are trying to do the greater good" by condition of their political and social ideology. 

That's a good post. Very true and unfortunate how easy it is to be sucked in and polarised by dislike of the other side. Ultimately that'll often happen from reading a news source with an agenda... They'll find an example of the most extreme outlier of one side of politics and just write a bit of an outrage piece on it.

[Fairy In Boots]

7 hours ago, Harry said:

If the EU still exists in its present form by then. It really has some serious problems, and the effect of the single currency eliminating the ability of various poorer countries to return to prosperity in the manner typical (reduced value currency) will continue to foster inequality and resentment towards Brussels and Germany from many quarters. The rise of the hard right has a lot more to do with people feeling left behind than is given credit, and it will continue to be an issue imo.

Pretty much sums up why Italy have lurched the way they have, Salvini is adored in the poorer south. He will be back and in charge. 

 

4 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Brexit won't be and can't be fixed by anything politically ideological. Infact political ideology is the last thing this process needs and it's part of the reason nothing has been achieved uptil now on both sides.

The danger here is that whether you're a Corbynista or at the other end of the spectrum, if you're consumed by ideology it's like putting blinkers on a horse, that it makes you incapable of seeing reality due to you only being able to see the political narrative that you subscribe to and THAT will override absolutely everything that's on the table and requires the utmost of attention. When reality contradicts that political ideological narrative it will not let you concede to reality and leave you with only fixed talking points that go round in circles and DO NOT address the issue here which is what is achieved and gained by leaving the European Union in relation to the reasons put forward pre-2016.

When balanced people smell an ideologue they become scared because an ideologue goes onto do extremely unbalanced things by hiding behind a current political affair but with an ideological agenda in the background while not addressing the real issue. Reality is ignored because (quote, unquote) "they are trying to do the greater good" by condition of their political and social ideology. 

Lol ironic given your constant peddling of remain propaganda

[Harry]

Ironically, for a system that is stated as being developed to prevent another war between Germany and whomever else it has just made Germany more powerful as their currency is artificially devalued as they share it with poor countries. If still on the Mark German goods would be more expensive and they're be less of an economic powerhouse. In its very structure the EU divorces monetary policy from fiscal policy which is bad practice and will always make the richer countries richer and the poorer poorer. 

It should never have moved to become a political union. Can only result in German domination even when they are not trying to. Hence builds resentment to Germany and more likely to lead to war than prevent one. Not an issue now but I think resentment will build. 

Classic creation of irrational ideologically driven bureaucrats. Aside from original idea of making easier to trade across borders, which could have been achieved with something short of a full currency union, it makes no sense economically or politically.
Problem now is that without a deal leaving will be hugely damaging to the British economy, and with other nations flirting with anti EU sentiment there will be little desire to help them avoid some pretty significant pain.

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Fairy In Boots said:

ol ironic given your constant peddling of remain propaganda

There’s no irony at all in any of my posts unless I announce it which I always do mate. 

There is no propaganda from me, there’s only the issues that have to be taken into account. I feel sorry for hardline Brexiters, they’re victims. I only despise those who hate.

[SirBalon]

Propaganda? Or just the fucking truth. 

[Fairy In Boots]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Ironically, for a system that is stated as being developed to prevent another war between Germany and whomever else it has just made Germany more powerful as their currency is artificially devalued as they share it with poor countries. If still on the Mark German goods would be more expensive and they're be less of an economic powerhouse. In its very structure the EU divorces monetary policy from fiscal policy which is bad practice and will always make the richer countries richer and the poorer poorer. 

It should never have moved to become a political union. Can only result in German domination even when they are not trying to. Hence builds resentment to Germany and more likely to lead to war than prevent one. Not an issue now but I think resentment will build. 

Classic creation of irrational ideologically driven bureaucrats. Aside from original idea of making easier to trade across borders, which could have been achieved with something short of a full currency union, it makes no sense economically or politically.
Problem now is that without a deal leaving will be hugely damaging to the British economy, and with other nations flirting with anti EU sentiment there will be little desire to help them avoid some pretty significant pain.

They’re won’t be resentment, the Army is the next stage in Franco-German imperialistic ambition. Slowly but surely it’s going to copy the USSR

 

2 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Propaganda? Or just the fucking truth. 

It’s an opinion presented as fact, you bellend. You post a continuous stream of rabid remainer tweets presented in a bias style and try to say your “just stating facts” your not your sharing opinions. 

 

[SirBalon]

Just now, Fairy In Boots said:

They’re won’t be resentment, the Army is the next stage in Franco-German imperialistic ambition. Slowly but surely it’s going to copy the USSR

 

It’s an opinion presented as fact, you bellend. You post a continuous stream of rabid remainer tweets presented in a bias style and try to say your “just stating facts” your not your sharing opinions. 

 

What opinion? The backstop isn’t an opinion sunshine. It’s a peace treaty observed by every country on the planet and it was forced by the UK curiously enough. You cannot break it, it’s not permitted and in politics there’s demeanour and being in tune with reality.

BJ is a liar mate, a charlatan and a proven user of deception for his own personal goals. It’s curious that nothing legitimate politically (personalities) accompanies any hardline promoter of Brexit.

It’s no longer the “It’ll be the easiest deal in history” or the “have our cake and eat it” or the “the German car industry will put them in line” or even the fucking “sunny uplands”  

I could go on about all the positives that were sold to idiots on the leave campaign and no nobody is using them. Just... at best... It’ll be a bump on the road and we’ll be fucking fine.

There is no rhetoric from Remain. Only shock, horror and being bloody shit scared. That for those that have no modum of getting out of it with dual nationality + like Farage has managed with his sons who he has nationalised them German.

[Kowabunga]

"£350m a week will be spent on our NHS"

.....

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"there will be adequate food"

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"corpse piling is going to be run smoothly"