Generation 'Snowflake'

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Half English, half Persian.

Ah right.  So do you ever get racist abuse?

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Ah right.  So do you ever get racist abuse?

Only once... on here of all places - growing up in the North I never really did, but I just look like a white person that's maybe a bit more hairy than your average Brit. My mum & my uncle and my cousins got loads of it in the 80s though. Especially my uncle, who had the shit kicked out of him multiple times for being brown. And my cousins from that uncle are 100% ethnically Persian (born and raised in the UK though and who identify as British... because they are) did as well. I've heard people say bigoted shite about people from the Middle East right in front of my face though, not directed at me... but I doubt I'd have had it casually dropped on me mid-conversation if I looked more brown and less white.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Only once... on here of all places - growing up in the North I never really did, but I just look like a white person that's maybe a bit more hairy than your average Brit. My mum & my uncle and my cousins got loads of it in the 80s though. Especially my uncle, who had the shit kicked out of him multiple times for being brown. And my cousins from that uncle are 100% ethnically Persian (born and raised in the UK though and who identify as British... because they are) did as well. I've heard people say bigoted shite about people from the Middle East right in front of my face though, not directed at me... but I doubt I'd have had it casually dropped on me mid-conversation if I looked more brown and less white.

I think the problem is that if experienced it they don't realise how bad it is. I've never suffered rasism becasue I'm white British but I have had abuse for other things. Maybe that is why I am so anti racist.

[Cicero]

3 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

 

And why should Kaepernick be held tothis standard of being a grand unifier of American society? That's a role for American leaders, who are failing miserably at unifying anybody, not athletes. People using their profile and celebrity status for bringing certain issues to the public eye is nothing new.

Because all Kaepernick is doing is separating US society even furthur. He essentially set up a platform in which you are either with his cause or against it, no inbetween. For goodness sake yourself and FourSix just stated that those who disagree are racist, before even hearing any reasonable counter argument. So obviously it's an issue.  It's this kind of stuff that leaves no breathing room for anything constructive, and if you do not agree with it you are essentially labeled as against it, or worse, racist. 

This doesnt make anything better. 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

8 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Because all Kaepernick is doing is separating US society even furthur. He essentially set up a platform in which you are either with his cause or against it, no inbetween. For goodness sake yourself and FourSix just stated that those who disagree are racist, before even hearing any reasonable counter argument. So obviously it's an issue.  It's this kind of stuff that leaves no breathing room for anything constructive, and if you do not agree with it you are essentially labeled as against it, or worse, racist. 

This doesnt make anything better. 

 

But he’s not a political or social leader, it’s not his job to unite people. Furthermore, I doubt he wants to unite the racist portion of the population with the non-racist population.

I question why you’d hold an athlete to a higher standard than the actual leaders of America. He wasn’t even a good athlete, he was dogshit after one year. Why is he expected to be some kind of unifying force?

It’s a protest, all you have to do to not be bothered by it is pay it no attention. I think the people who are most upset by it are most likely racist. Why? Because it’s a peaceful protest that is easily ignored if you don’t agree with it & is literally hurting nobody. It’s not even disrespectful to the flag, because kneeling is deferential. Also who cares if a flag is disrespected? It’s a fucking flag it doesn’t have feelings.

Ultimately, I think the American right has made this a bigger issue than it is because it’s a nice distraction from other issues. Again, it’s not like he’s the first fucking celebrity to take on social issues. And it caters nicely to the racists who will vote against their own interests.

[6666]

"Stop talking about race and racism will go away" is actually an argument some on the right truly believe in. 

[Inverted]

Pretty sure Nike has a record of supporting law enforcement in the states. This is nothing else than typical liberalism - commodifying wokeness so that would-be progressives feel they are embracing a cause, without ever challenging the basic causes of their unhappiness.

But seeing racists foaming at the mouth and burning their shoes does give me quite a kick.

[Cicero]

7 hours ago, 6666 said:

"Stop talking about race and racism will go away" is actually an argument some on the right truly believe in. 

Really is no better than the argument some on the left believe that "You are racist if you do not agree with me." 

[Cicero]

11 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I question why you’d hold an athlete to a higher standard than the actual leaders of America. He wasn’t even a good athlete, he was dogshit after one year. Why is he expected to be some kind of unifying force?

 

He isn't? Hence me saying he shouldn't have done it? 

[Dr. Gonzo]

39 minutes ago, Cicero said:

He isn't? Hence me saying he shouldn't have done it? 

You’re saying he shouldn’t have done it because it’s divisive... so you’re holding him to a higher standard than a lot of America’s actual leaders. The people who’s job it should be to unite and not divide, and since I’ve moved here this country has become more fractured and more politically divisive. But he’s not a leader, he’s an athlete.

[SirBalon]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

You’re saying he shouldn’t have done it because it’s divisive... so you’re holding him to a higher standard than a lot of America’s actual leaders. The people who’s job it should be to unite and not divide, and since I’ve moved here this country has become more fractured and more politically divisive. But he’s not a leader, he’s an athlete.

Give me a first world country that hasn't become more fractured and divisive in recent times mate?

This isn't a phenomenon exclusive to the US, although they do have issues that started to be dealt with by European countries almost half a century ago.  The United States of America is a very odd nation to be honest... It's due to most popular culture coming from that land that most don't question how backward and underdeveloped most of the nation actually is.

[Cicero]

35 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

You’re saying he shouldn’t have done it because it’s divisive... so you’re holding him to a higher standard than a lot of America’s actual leaders. The people who’s job it should be to unite and not divide, and since I’ve moved here this country has become more fractured and more politically divisive. But he’s not a leader, he’s an athlete.

Simply protesting, which is everyone's right, or believe in a cause, is great. Doing it at work is another issue, especially in the entertainment business that is viewed by millions. Kneeling during the anthem will undoubtedly create different perceptions, and he is naive to think otherwise. That is not the way he should of went about it. I thought Kapernick was more intelligent than that, however his partnership with Nike proves otherwise. 

 Carrying and publicly speaking about an issue, that is in fact a serious issue is something everyone has a right to. However, saying this is a 'blacks are getting shot by cops because they are black' rhetoric instead of 'the police need to be trained better to prevent unjustifiable killings' will undoubtedly create separation. 

In the United States from what I've gathered, the moment race is brought up in an issue both the left and right see common ground, the more it separates them. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

8 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Give me a first world country that hasn't become more fractured and divisive in recent times mate?

This isn't a phenomenon exclusive to the US, although they do have issues that started to be dealt with by European countries almost half a century ago.  The United States of America is a very odd nation to be honest... It's due to most popular culture coming from that land that most don't question how backward and underdeveloped most of the nation actually is.

For sure it’s not unique to the US, but I do think the US’s political world has become more divisive in an extreme way compared to say the UK.

I’ve got mixed feelings on the US, odd is a good way of describing it. There’s a lot I like about it (I live here & am getting married to an American after all), and there’s a lot I don’t like about it - the views that I think are backward, like faith in policies from eras past that have proven to be failures (supply side economics), the in your face racism (the UK still has problems with racism obviously, but at least society generally as a whole is a bit more subtle with its racism in the UK ), the large swaths of poor people that are left behind by society (but that’s an issue everywhere tbh, it just seems so widespread in the US - and the types of people included in this “forgotten group” are so widespread because America is a country that’s so diverse), the gun worshipping, and probably a lot more things if I wanted to sit down and think long and hard about it.

[Dr. Gonzo]

12 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Carrying and publicly speaking about an issue, that is in fact a serious issue is something everyone has a right to. However, saying this is a 'blacks are getting shot by cops because they are black' rhetoric instead of 'the police need to be trained better to prevent unjustifiable killings' will undoubtedly create separation.

But when the statistical evidence suggests you’re somewhere between 1.7-2.8 times more likely to be shot by a cop if you’re black... and with many of these shootings preserved on video so we can see the circumstances of certain incidents... there’s merit behind his claim. I’d argue the actions of these cops created separation.

I’m not saying you’re wrong that police need to be trained better. But police need to leave stereotyping black people at home, because black people are a part of society that police serve as well. And the statistics indicate that either racism or stereotyped views about black people means they’re less safe when they interact with police in the US.

[SirBalon]

20 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

But when the statistical evidence suggests you’re somewhere between 1.7-2.8 times more likely to be shot by a cop if you’re black... and with many of these shootings preserved on video so we can see the circumstances of certain incidents... there’s merit behind his claim. I’d argue the actions of these cops created separation.

I’m not saying you’re wrong that police need to be trained better. But police need to leave stereotyping black people at home, because black people are a part of society that police serve as well. And the statistics indicate that either racism or stereotyped views about black people means they’re less safe when they interact with police in the US.

You're giving a lot of subjective insight into life while living in America as an immigrant which is of extreme importance as that is where the middle ground resides which means the truth.  But as I said in my very first post on this thread, this (in my humble opinion) is due to a class issue more than a racial one.  Unfortunately black people in the US fall into the lower class dregs of society (on the most part) and will inevitably be involved in crime to substantiate their existence in accordance to the American ideal of consumierism fuelled by capitalism.  They'll (black people and all other ethnic minorities that fall into the lower class category) be vying to compete and assimilate, while committing crime to be able to participate in their mindset.  Let's also remember that their mindset is an established one where due to geographical demographics you are either gonna be a total success or fail miserably with no middle ground which is available to the lower middle class society in the States.

A native of the US can't see this in general unless he or she has travelled and subjected have myself or herself to experiences far and beyond their society.  Even in metropolises like New York or Los Angeles you'll get close knit groups of ethnic minorities (ethnic minorities that hold themselves as such even though in most cases they're 5th generation Americans) that maintain ancient ignorant manifestations of belief and cultural identity.

To say that the UK is suffering in post Brexit referendum to a lesser extent is madness mate.  This country has gone to the pits... In Italy there's a massive battle of total and utter right wing racism coming from their new government led by Salvini and in Spain you have the issue with ideologically fuelled false racial identity according to regional discordance.  In France you also have the rising prominence of the ultra right of the Le Penn association while in Germany, Greece and Austria you have a going number of radical protesters to the Euro ideal of free movement...  

This is a new era only that in the US it's as old as the civil war with embedded racism and classism.

[Cicero]

43 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

But when the statistical evidence suggests you’re somewhere between 1.7-2.8 times more likely to be shot by a cop if you’re black... and with many of these shootings preserved on video so we can see the circumstances of certain incidents... there’s merit behind his claim. I’d argue the actions of these cops created separation.

The statistical evidence also shows that blacks commit more robberies and homicides, which ultimately increases their likelihood of being shot by the police? 

[SirBalon]

18 minutes ago, Cicero said:

The statistical evidence also shows that blacks commit more robberies and homicides, which ultimately increases their likelihood of being shot by the police? 

I would be inclined to believe this but then you have to ask your successive governments have failed to deal with the issue in class.

What’s odd is that the stats on white crime are whitewashed in middle America. 

[Cicero]

3 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I would be inclined to believe this but then you have to ask your successive governments have failed to deal with the issue in class.

What’s odd is that the stats on white crime are whitewashed in middle America. 

How are they whitewashed exactly? Crimes of white, black, Hispanic, oriental, are all taken into account and are referenced by their population size. 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

37 minutes ago, Cicero said:

The statistical evidence also shows that blacks commit more robberies and homicides, which ultimately increases their likelihood of being shot by the police? 

Yeah but they’re a group of people who’ve been in the US and heavily marginalised for century & MLK and the Civil Rights Act don’t mean they stopped being marginalised. I think you’ll find if you look at crime rates in economically depressed communities rather than by race the statistics would look similar. 

[SirBalon]

17 minutes ago, Cicero said:

How are they whitewashed exactly? Crimes of white, black, Hispanic, oriental, are all taken into account and are referenced by their population size. 

 

They don’t make the sensationalist media which is the food intake of most societies. 

[RandoEFC+]

How do you guys have the energy to argue for so long after a full day's work? 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

How do you guys have the energy to argue for so long after a full day's work? 

I'm a good multitasker 

[Danny]

On 07/09/2018 at 06:26, RandoEFC said:

How do you guys have the energy to argue for so long after a full day's work? 

It's taken me as much energy not to get involved in this as it has them to argue...we're all on this forum for one thing and that's not to agree with people 

[Harry]

On 06/09/2018 at 03:53, Cicero said:

Not once, but twice did I state that unjustified shootings of unarmed civilians, be it white or black, is an issue. There is common ground on that. However, there is a split divide by thinking this is a matter of race vs a matter of incompetent and impulsive police officers. The left claim that if you do not believe in the former, you are a racist. You are proof of that. How exactly does that make sense as an argument? Not once have I seen any of the black lives matter supporters stand up and protest for the injustice of Daniel Shaver. But that wouldn't fit their political agenda would it. 

This whole thing goes back to my initial premise. The left want to make this an issue about race, when the statistics point to this being an issue about culture. 

Let's not forget they also live in a country where guns are ubiquitous and each "perp" is potentially well able to pull a gun and shoot back.

Most other counties the starting point for the officer could be to assume he was the only person in the room with a gun. That would make a big difference to my level of stress levels and decision making. 

 

[Machado]