No Further Action to be Taken After Firmino/Holgate Incident

[Guest Cannabis]

Would be low for Liverpool to be involved in yet another racism storm in such a small space of time. Nobody knows for now what was said to Holgate but if it's anything racist then an investigation and heavy suspension should follow. I don't really understand why racism should have been brought up however as aren't they both sharing the same skin tones?

[Burning Gold]

I'm seriously impressed by the speed with which Holgate went from aggressor to victim in order to distract from his dangerous push on Firmino and escape punishment 

I don't think there's anything to this, but good to see the FA are investigating it and the club are cooperating fully.

[LFCMadLad]

1 minute ago, Cannabis said:

Would be low for Liverpool to be involved in yet another racism storm in such a small space of time. Nobody knows for now what was said to Holgate but if it's anything racist then an investigation and heavy suspension should follow. I don't really understand why racism should have been brought up however as aren't they both sharing the same skin tones?

Apparently lip readers have distinguished that he said “you crazy son of a whore” in Portuguese. Many think that Holgate played the race card to distract the referee from sending him off for not only pushing Firmino into a set of fans, but for also laying his hands on the referee himself. 

Now, as always my view will be that if Firmino is found guilty of making racist remarks then he deserves what’s coming to him, a very lengthy ban. However, if it’s proven that Firmino made no racist remarks whatsoever and Holgate is just flat out lying then he should receive the same punishment. 

[RandoEFC+]

I don't think that Firmino said anything racist or that Holgate is lying, it's probably just lost in translation. Could be that that's what Madley went to talk to his fourth official about afterwards to check if it was racist? Though I don't know why Mike Dean would know Portuguese any better than him.

[LFCMadLad]

1 minute ago, RandoEFC said:

I don't think that Firmino said anything racist or that Holgate is lying, it's probably just lost in translation. Could be that that's what Madley went to talk to his fourth official about afterwards to check if it was racist? Though I don't know why Mike Dean would know Portuguese any better than him.

No lost in translation about it mate. Holgate flat out accused Firmino of calling him a nigger. After launching Firmino into the crowd he went straight up to the ref and said “he just called me a nigger”, he then turned to Jagielka and said “he’s just called me a fucking nigger”. 

That is a flat out accusation whichever way you slice it and shit sticks. Whether Firmino is cleared or not he’ll now be subject to relentless chants of being a racist at every away ground he goes to. 

As I said, if he’s proven to be guilty of calling Holgate a nigger then he deserves everything that’s coming to him but if not, then Holgate should be the one on the end of a massive hefty ban. 

[Rick]

No, I don't agree. Holgate may have misheard it and thought it was an insult. If lip reading experts look at it and say otherwise, then Holgate will have the chance to look at the evidence and accept he made a mistake. 

That's assuming Firmino said this son of a whore stuff.

[RandoEFC+]

2 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

No lost in translation about it mate. Holgate flat out accused Firmino of calling him a nigger. After launching Firmino into the crowd he went straight up to the ref and said “he just called me a nigger”, he then turned to Jagielka and said “he’s just called me a fucking nigger”. 

That is a flat out accusation whichever way you slice it and shit sticks. Whether Firmino is cleared or not he’ll now be subject to relentless chants of being a racist at every away ground he goes to. 

As I said, if he’s proven to be guilty of calling Holgate a nigger then he deserves everything that’s coming to him but if not, then Holgate should be the one on the end of a massive hefty ban. 

Depends if Holgate said that to the ref as well but if he definitely said that to his team mates I don't see why he'd bother lying to them because they don't actually have any authority over banning Firmino or anything.

Lallana is the big winner in all of this because now nobody is talking about a retrospective ban for his awful dive. 

[LFCMadLad]

5 minutes ago, FOYM said:

No, I don't agree. Holgate may have misheard it and thought it was an insult. If lip reading experts look at it and say otherwise, then Holgate will have the chance to look at the evidence and accept he made a mistake. 

Lip readers have said that Firmino said "fila de puta” which translates to “son of a whore”. 

How can "fila de puta” be misheard and interpreted as “fucking nigger”? 

And even if he ‘thought’ it was an insult, you don’t just automatically go flat out and accuse someone of racism! 

[Storts]

Would be absolutely shocked if this didn't turn out to be entirely accurate. Something about Liverpool football club that breeds these sort of despicable lowlife footballers. Hope the book is thrown at him and he's forced out of English football because it's not acceptable in the slightest.

HAHAHA ROD IS OUT

[RandoEFC+]

1 minute ago, LFCMadLad said:

Lip readers have said that Firmino said "fila de puta” which translates to “son of a whore”. 

How can "fila de puta” be misheard and interpreted as “fucking nigger”? 

If you watch the clip the Portuguese for "What are you doing you son of a bitch " or whatever it is checks out, then the referees head gets in the way, Firmino says something else and THEN Holgate reacts by trying to get past Madley and gets taken away by his team mates at which point he seems to claim Firmino called him a nigger. 

Either Holgate is very good at making it seem like that happened, or it actually did happen, or Firmino said something else that could have been misheard as nigger or a word that Holgate for some reason thinks is a racial slur in Portuguese.

[LFCMadLad]

6 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Depends if Holgate said that to the ref as well but if he definitely said that to his team mates I don't see why he'd bother lying to them because they don't actually have any authority over banning Firmino or anything.

Lallana is the big winner in all of this because now nobody is talking about a retrospective ban for his awful dive. 

He did say it to the ref, flat out accused him of calling him a nigger. 

[LFCMadLad]

3 minutes ago, Cannabis said:

I can remember Luis Suarez only saying ''black friend'' to Patrice Evra and look how that one turned out. There's a large slice of a deja vu here and I'd lean towards keeping quiet until all the facts are out? 

Black friend is slightly different to son of a whore. Don’t get the comparison?

[RandoEFC+]

Just now, LFCMadLad said:

He did say it to the ref, flat out accused him of calling him a nigger. 

So were you there? Are you James Milner or Bobby Madley? Or are we just going to read what self proclaimed lip readers say happened on Twitter then spout it as gospel?

[LFCMadLad]

4 minutes ago, Storts said:

Would be absolutely shocked if this didn't turn out to be entirely accurate. Something about Liverpool football club that breeds these sort of despicable lowlife footballers. Hope the book is thrown at him and he's forced out of English football because it's not acceptable in the slightest.

HAHAHA ROD IS OUT

Forced out of English football for calling someone a son of a whore? Bit extreme 

[LFCMadLad]

1 minute ago, RandoEFC said:

So were you there? Are you James Milner or Bobby Madley? Or are we just going to read what self proclaimed lip readers say happened on Twitter then spout it as gospel?

The video footage has been reviewed and lip reading experts have confirmed what was said. What more do you want? 

[LFCMadLad]

11 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

If you watch the clip the Portuguese for "What are you doing you son of a bitch " or whatever it is checks out, then the referees head gets in the way, Firmino says something else and THEN Holgate reacts by trying to get past Madley and gets taken away by his team mates at which point he seems to claim Firmino called him a nigger. 

Either Holgate is very good at making it seem like that happened, or it actually did happen, or Firmino said something else that could have been misheard as nigger or a word that Holgate for some reason thinks is a racial slur in Portuguese.

As I said, if Firmino is found guilty of what he’s accused then I’ll gladly see him banned. If not then Holgate should receive the same treatment. 

[RandoEFC+]

1 minute ago, LFCMadLad said:

As I said, if Firmino is found guilty of what he’s accused then I’ll gladly see him banned. If not then Holgate should receive the same treatment. 

It's not going to happen. Nobody can prove that Holgate deliberately spotted an opportunity to accuse Firmino of racism when he knew there wasn't a sniff of it. And I find it farfetched to believe that anyone would think to do that in the heat of the moment.

[Inverted]

The thing is that the n word in Spanish and Portuguese is “negro” or something isn’t it? 

Its sufficiently close that if the ref heard it then it shouldn’t be a matter of translation, it’s fundamentally the same word.

Although I admit I don’t know Portuguese racial slurs too well.

[Burning Gold]

12 minutes ago, Cannabis said:

I can remember Luis Suarez only saying ''black friend'' to Patrice Evra and look how that one turned out. There's a large slice of a deja vu here and I'd lean towards keeping quiet until all the facts are out? 

A lengthy ban for something completely innocuous? Unfortunately there's a chance this will turn out the same way.

17 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

If you watch the clip the Portuguese for "What are you doing you son of a bitch " or whatever it is checks out, then the referees head gets in the way, Firmino says something else and THEN Holgate reacts by trying to get past Madley and gets taken away by his team mates at which point he seems to claim Firmino called him a nigger. 

Either Holgate is very good at making it seem like that happened, or it actually did happen, or Firmino said something else that could have been misheard as nigger or a word that Holgate for some reason thinks is a racial slur in Portuguese.

Except he didn't make it seem like he happened. He told everyone who'd listen that Firmino called him a nigger and no one took any notice. I don't think it's insignificant that he's the only one that reacted.

[Stan]

35 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

No lost in translation about it mate. Holgate flat out accused Firmino of calling him a nigger. After launching Firmino into the crowd he went straight up to the ref and said “he just called me a nigger”, he then turned to Jagielka and said “he’s just called me a fucking nigger”. 

That is a flat out accusation whichever way you slice it and shit sticks. Whether Firmino is cleared or not he’ll now be subject to relentless chants of being a racist at every away ground he goes to. 

As I said, if he’s proven to be guilty of calling Holgate a nigger then he deserves everything that’s coming to him but if not, then Holgate should be the one on the end of a massive hefty ban. 

It wasn't straight after. He pushed Firmino in to the crowd, Firmino comes back all in his face. At this point Holgate doesn't give a shit. THEN Firmino says something and Holgate loses his shit. There's some handbags and scuffles and a melee and that's when Holgate is seen to say to a teammate that he thinks Firmino calls him a nigger. Then he says the same to the ref and Madley shrugs it off saying he didn't see or hear anything. 

Interesting what becomes of Madley here though as if Firmino has said something offensive, why hasn't he done anything? How has he not heard something? 

[SirBalon]

17 minutes ago, Inverted said:

The thing is that the n word in Spanish and Portuguese is “negro” or something isn’t it? 

Its sufficiently close that if the ref heard it then it shouldn’t be a matter of translation, it’s fundamentally the same word.

Although I admit I don’t know Portuguese racial slurs too well.

This goes back to the Suárez situation with mistranslation of vocabulary and also tha massive difference in culture.  Racism is racism but interpretation does get lost in translation many times.

Negro is indeed the word for Black in Spanish and in Portuguese it’s Preto while in Italian it’s Nero.

To make a reference to someone’s of Afro-Caribbean race in English we use the work black and not brown (the actual colour) and certainly not coloured in the “dark ages” of ignorance in the English speaking world.

In Spanish, Italian and Portuguese just as in the English language they use their own set vocabulary which is again the colour (Negro, Nero or Preto). Again as in English it’s everything else contained within that sentence that can determine whether the word is a racial slur or not but I have been witness to English speaking people that understand the foreign word for black being spoken in a foreign language thinking something of a racial nature is being muttered.  This in 90% of cases is not what’s ocurring but obviously for someone that doesn’t understand that language fully can never be sure.

With the Luis Suárez situation I and every Spanish speaker knows he wasn’t using a racist terminology but yet a media driven witch-hunt was set into motion and the rest is history now... I won’t go back into that because I said my part enough at the time.  He was labelled a racist by everyone due to the “victim” being of a disposition that offers more questions (in my personal opinion) than the supposed “offender”.

[SirBalon]

Let me just add that Firmino is Brazilian and they speak Portuguese (obviously) where the word for black is Preto...  there is no way the word Preto can be interpreted for nigger or negro.

[Burning Gold]

5 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

With the Luis Suárez situation I and every Spanish speaker knows he wasn’t using a racist terminology

@Cannabis 

[UNORTHODOX]

I don't think he said anything racist  But If he has said something in reference to Holgate's skin colour then that's a racist remark even if he didn't flat out call him "nigger".

hopefully it's just handbags and it gets resolved without any controversy but if he's found guilty then he deserves whatever punishment they throw at him.

[Storts]

18 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

This goes back to the Suárez situation with mistranslation of vocabulary and also tha massive difference in culture.  Racism is racism but interpretation does get lost in translation many times.

Negro is indeed the word for Black in Spanish and in Portuguese it’s Preto while in Italian it’s Nero.

To make a reference to someone’s of Afro-Caribbean race in English we use the work black and not brown (the actual colour) and certainly not coloured in the “dark ages” of ignorance in the English speaking world.

In Spanish, Italian and Portuguese just as in the English language they use their own set vocabulary which is again the colour (Negro, Nero or Preto). Again as in English it’s everything else contained within that sentence that can determine whether the word is a racial slur or not but I have been witness to English speaking people that understand the foreign word for black being spoken in a foreign language thinking something of a racial nature is being muttered.  This in 90% of cases is not what’s ocurring but obviously for someone that doesn’t understand that language fully can never be sure.

With the Luis Suárez situation I and every Spanish speaker knows he wasn’t using a racist terminology but yet a media driven witch-hunt was set into motion and the rest is history now... I won’t go back into that because I said my part enough at the time.  He was labelled a racist by everyone due to the “victim” being of a disposition that offers more questions (in my personal opinion) than the supposed “offender”.

Why the need to bring colour into it at all though? He was being racist and rightly banned, whichever way you try and spin it. Lets be honest Spanish speakers may not consider it to be because their record with racism is appalling.