Man City 2-1 Liverpool - Thursday 3rd January, 2019

[Stan]

1 minute ago, Blue said:

I actually think TAA is better off as a fullback. I think he has potential to be something, but his technique is something that I can't see improving a ton and I think he's better suited to be a defender. Whether its CB or FB. Technique is absolutely key to be a central midfielder and he doesn't have it. He is however, good defensively and once he matures his positioning will become a whole lot better.

But his best performances have come as a wing-back and it suits Liverpool's system perfectly, with Robertson doing the same job on the right. Liverpool benefit from his ability to work hard up and down the right flank. Technique is key to being a central midfielder and that'd be a good point to discuss someone who plays there but TAA doesn't, so it's a bit of a moot point. 

He had good enough technique for the cross to land it at Robertson's feet and in to a dangerous area...

[Rick]

Getting stick because I think we need a more experienced RB available for games like this? Nah, sorry but it's not the first time I've said this sort of thing. I think the lad is massively talented, but he's still young and naive and a more experienced head would have been better to have in there tonight.

[Stan]

1 minute ago, LFCMadLad said:

We are playing ourselves? 

Nailed on 3 points then 

Have edited it now!

[MUFC]

Should Kompany have seen red?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Storts said:

Oh come on behave, to be playing at this level for the team leading the Premier League and in the CL final last year has nothing to do with whether he’s English. It’s just that he’s supremely talented enough to be doing so.

And 95% these hypothetical Koreans or Japanese players would have been snapped up by European clubs long before they were 19/20 if they were that good 

I've said enough times that he's good enough, but I just don't think he's a wonderkid. And the reason he plays in England is because that's where he's from!!! I honestly doubt he would have been snapped up this quickly by Liverpool if he was in another continent.

And please stop with the Japan/Korea example. I've seen them in bits to see the sort of talent they posess but I don't follow them in depth to know the names of them. I'm more familiar with South Americans.

[Bluewolf]

Great game to watch.. Could have been 3-3 if all the chances had gone in, hard to tell who really edged it for me, both sides giving pretty much all their effort and City just getting the vital second goal.. Was hoping Liverpool could at least draw but it's going to make it a good race till the end of the season now.. 

22 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

but also fuck neutrals

 

It's us neutrals that help keep it real... No personal investment in either club, we are here to point out the positives and failings while you lot ponce about with your rose tinted shades on.. 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Blue said:

You would know better than me in this case as you're a Liverpool fan, but you are wrong about one thing: that TAA is automatically better than Japanese and Koreans playing in their league just because he plays in one of the strongest leagues in the world. Would you have said the same if TAA was Korean? He would have had to start in South Korea or wherever country he came from. He's English, he's not going to start in bloody Bosnia or Ukraine. He lives there and he cuts the bill at Liverpool but to me he's not a "wonderkid" and there are so many better Brazilian full backs at his age. I don't know about Japan and Korea but being "untested" doesn't make them worse.

What the fuck are you on about? If Trent Alexander-Arnold was Korean, he'd have to have really fucking excelled in Korea to make it here. If he was Bosnian or Ukrainian, same deal. Same with Brazil. If we'd signed young Trent Alexander-Arnoldinho at 17 from Sao Paolo or some shite like that, and he'd come through into the first team like he'd had now, I'd think of him the exact same way.

Are you trying to say he's fortunate that he's Scouse and came through our youth team so he could start his development off at a stronger league?

Because that doesn't matter. The fact is, he's a 19 year old playing regularly and playing well at a good club in a strong league. That says a lot about how good he is as a young player.

There might be some fantastic Brazilian fullbacks playing in Brazil at 19. But, unfortunately, it's really impossible to say how good they are in comparison. They're not playing in leagues that are as good.

And being "untested" absolutely makes you worse. You never know how you'll be at the top level until you've reached the top level. Just saying "oh well I'm sure he'd do fine" doesn't mean a thing - you don't know how they do at the top until they're actually at the top. And being at a league that's far off from the standards of the top means you're not going to be competing with top players, so however good you may look will always be taken with a pinch of salt.

[Rick]

Just now, shut up said:

is TAA better than Clyne?

Yes. But I'm not arguing for Clyne to be the answer either. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Stan said:

But his best performances have come as a wing-back and it suits Liverpool's system perfectly, with Robertson doing the same job on the right. Liverpool benefit from his ability to work hard up and down the right flank. Technique is key to being a central midfielder and that'd be a good point to discuss someone who plays there but TAA doesn't, so it's a bit of a moot point. 

He had good enough technique for the cross to land it at Robertson's feet and in to a dangerous area...

I'm not an expert mate, but based on what I've seen I don't think he'd cut it at top level as a central midfielder where as I do think once he matures he can be a very useful player at full or wing back. He just needs to be consistent with his positioning, which can sometimes be off.

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, shut up said:

is TAA better than Clyne?

Yes, by a lot I'd say too.

[Stan]

3 minutes ago, Blue said:

I've said enough times that he's good enough, but I just don't think he's a wonderkid. And the reason he plays in England is because that's where he's from!!! I honestly doubt he would have been snapped up this quickly by Liverpool if he was in another continent.

And please stop with the Japan/Korea example. I've seen them in bits to see the sort of talent they posess but I don't follow them in depth to know the names of them. I'm more familiar with South Americans.

 

22 minutes ago, Blue said:

There probably are better players in Japan or Korea at his age and position to be fair. I haven't followed in depth. He's in the PL though because he's good enough and for being English. He lives there - so is he gonna start in bloody Bosnia?

Just my opinion but I find his "wonderkid" status ridiculous. He'll become something, but not a world class player in my eyes.

To be fair you did compare them and you do bum Japan and Korea a lot  

[Rick]

Listen. I'm very reactionary, it's one of my flaws when posting on here. Perhaps the way I worded my original post makes it seem as if I think Trent is some shite kid. I don't think that, I think he's very talented and has a big future, but with that youth comes naivety. He needs somebody to learn from.

[Dr. Gonzo]

To be fair to @Blue, he's not saying he doesn't think TAA isn't good - just that he doesn't deserve this "wonderkid" status. However, I'd argue that a "wonderkid" status doesn't mean a fucking thing in this world, because we don't live in a Football Manager save and it's literally just a meaningless tag some people came up with to describe young players. I can't think of many 19 year old fullbacks I'd want to have in the side though, other than TAA, so I'm not particularly arsed if he's a "wonderkid" or not. He's 19 years old and developing well and I hope that continues.

[MUFC]

Should Kompany gave been sent off?

[Guest]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

What the fuck are you on about? If Trent Alexander-Arnold was Korean, he'd have to have really fucking excelled in Korea to make it here. If he was Bosnian or Ukrainian, same deal. Same with Brazil. If we'd signed young Trent Alexander-Arnoldinho at 17 from Sao Paolo or some shite like that, and he'd come through into the first team like he'd had now, I'd think of him the exact same way.

Are you trying to say he's fortunate that he's Scouse and came through our youth team so he could start his development off at a stronger league?

Because that doesn't matter. The fact is, he's a 19 year old playing regularly and playing well at a good club in a strong league. That says a lot about how good he is as a young player.

There might be some fantastic Brazilian fullbacks playing in Brazil at 19. But, unfortunately, it's really impossible to say how good they are in comparison. They're not playing in leagues that are as good.

And being "untested" absolutely makes you worse. You never know how you'll be at the top level until you've reached the top level. Just saying "oh well I'm sure he'd do fine" doesn't mean a thing - you don't know how they do at the top until they're actually at the top. And being at a league that's far off from the standards of the top means you're not going to be competing with top players, so however good you may look will always be taken with a pinch of salt.

Mate, I'll tell you right now that in Brazil, TAA wouldn't have come through. It has nothing to do with the level and comparisons, but more because of the Samba style and the full back culture in Brazil. There are much better players at his age and position in South America.

You are right that it's hard to compare because one plays in a strong league and the others don't, but I can tell you right now that with adjustments in Europe, these Brazilian fullbacks do have the potential to become world class, and for me TAA doesn't.

I'm not saying he's fortunate to be scouse. He has worked to get in the first team and I respect him for that. But again, he's not going to start in Bosnia or Ukraine. If Liverpool feel he is good enough, there is no need to play in feeder leagues if you're English because you can already make the jump to the highest level.

And no, being untested does not make you worse. Sure it can be a coin toss to buy players from other continents, but if they do adjust, then they become seriously fucking good. If you have potential, than that can mean a lot at a young age. Maybe TAA would be a better choice than a 18 year old Korean full back who just signed from Pohang Steelers and is about to make his debut, but with time if that Korean has potential, than he could become better. That's what I'm getting at. POTENTIAL.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Rick said:

Listen. I'm very reactionary, it's one of my flaws when posting on here. Perhaps the way I worded my original post makes it seem as if I think Trent is some shite kid. I don't think that, I think he's very talented and has a big future, but with that youth comes naivety. He needs somebody to learn from.

But do you think that means we need to sign a new starting RB? Because I think that'd be a waste of our limited resources, Trent and Gomez are the future of our defense. They'll be learning from the more experienced heads around the squad, regardless of whether they're in the same position or not. And at TAA's age, mistakes are going to happen. He's meant to learn from those mistakes under the guidance of our more veteran players and the manager and his staff.

I don't even think Trent did a lot wrong though today, I think Lovren (a more experienced player) fucked up much worse than anything Trent did today. City targeted that side of our defense, but on the other side of the defense there's VVD and Robertson... so they're targeting the weaker side of the defense. Reasonable for them to do. And they're attacking us with a ridiculous squad.

[Rick]

Can I go on record and distance myself from any of this piss that @Blue is spouting

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

To be fair to @Blue, he's not saying he doesn't think TAA isn't good - just that he doesn't deserve this "wonderkid" status. However, I'd argue that a "wonderkid" status doesn't mean a fucking thing in this world, because we don't live in a Football Manager save and it's literally just a meaningless tag some people came up with to describe young players. I can't think of many 19 year old fullbacks I'd want to have in the side though, other than TAA, so I'm not particularly arsed if he's a "wonderkid" or not. He's 19 years old and developing well and I hope that continues.

If we aren't using the term - wonderkid, then we are using the term: world class. For me, he doesn't have world class potential. Players like Mbappe, and Coman have world class potential. And if you want defenders, than Kimpembe.

But at least you somewhat understood me. TAA in no way is a bad player and when he matures I think he can become very good, but just not "world class".

[LFCMadLad]

3 minutes ago, Rick said:

Listen. I'm very reactionary, it's one of my flaws when posting on here. Perhaps the way I worded my original post makes it seem as if I think Trent is some shite kid. I don't think that, I think he's very talented and has a big future, but with that youth comes naivety. He needs somebody to learn from.

What did he even do wrong? 

Sane would rip the arse out of most Full backs but tonight Trent held his own and created our goal!

Just don't get why you are singling the kid out?

[The Artful Dodger]

7 minutes ago, MUFC said:

Should Kompany gave been sent off?

Probably but lovren could also have gone. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Blue said:

If we aren't using the term - wonderkid, then we are using the term: world class. For me, he doesn't have world class potential. Players like Mbappe, and Coman have world class potential. And if you want defenders, than Kimpembe.

But at least you somewhat understood me. TAA in no way is a bad player and when he matures I think he can become very good, but just not "world class".

I'm not even going to respond to your post where you said Trent wouldn't even make it as a fullback in Brazil... because that's bollocks, I've seen some Brazilian fullbacks that came through in Brazil - if they could make it, he could make it.

I don' think there are very many world class players in the world. It's just some bullshit term that people have come up with for describing players and nowadays the phrase is used far too frequently. There's only a handful of players I think that have ever lived that are actually world class.

But if you're going to get hung up on semantics about the words people use to describe good players, I think you'll find you'll get hung up on a lot of words for no reasons.

[Rick]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

But do you think that means we need to sign a new starting RB? Because I think that'd be a waste of our limited resources, Trent and Gomez are the future of our defense. They'll be learning from the more experienced heads around the squad, regardless of whether they're in the same position or not. And at TAA's age, mistakes are going to happen. He's meant to learn from those mistakes under the guidance of our more veteran players and the manager and his staff.

I don't even think Trent did a lot wrong though today, I think Lovren (a more experienced player) fucked up much worse than anything Trent did today. City targeted that side of our defense, but on the other side of the defense there's VVD and Robertson... so they're targeting the weaker side of the defense. Reasonable for them to do. And they're attacking us with a ridiculous squad.

I think a player like Clyne isn't the best to learn anything from. As far as fullbacks go it's only Andy that can help him out of the fullbacks we have. I don't think we need a new starting RB though, I think just a proven player at the top level that's a bit older could be helpful. 

But as you say, we have experienced players he can learn from. And you sort of learn on the job as well. I think I'm regretting my post the more I think of it. I should really give it five minute before posting after a loss. 

[LFCMadLad]

2 minutes ago, Rick said:

I think a player like Clyne isn't the best to learn anything from. As far as fullbacks go it's only Andy that can help him out of the fullbacks we have. I don't think we need a new starting RB though, I think just a proven player at the top level that's a bit older could be helpful. 

But as you say, we have experienced players he can learn from. And you sort of learn on the job as well. I think I'm regretting my post the more I think of it. I should really give it five minute before posting after a loss. 

Fair play mate.

[Guest]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

I'm not even going to respond to your post where you said Trent wouldn't even make it as a fullback in Brazil... because that's bollocks, I've seen some Brazilian fullbacks that came through in Brazil - if they could make it, he could make it.

I don' think there are very many world class players in the world. It's just some bullshit term that people have come up with for describing players and nowadays the phrase is used far too frequently. There's only a handful of players I think that have ever lived that are actually world class.

But if you're going to get hung up on semantics about the words people use to describe good players, I think you'll find you'll get hung up on a lot of words for no reasons.

Brazil has a serious full back culture - they basically revolutionized it and still do. Maybe I was being harsh - but he wouldn't have caught the eye of Europeans better said. As an example, do you believe he can become as good as Roberto Carlos or Marcelo?

And as for the second point, I think that's fair enough. They are just words in the end but I guess a better way to put it is I don't think he'll be the next Alaba, or Marcelo. I think his peak is quite below that.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Rick said:

I think a player like Clyne isn't the best to learn anything from. As far as fullbacks go it's only Andy that can help him out of the fullbacks we have. I don't think we need a new starting RB though, I think just a proven player at the top level that's a bit older could be helpful. 

But as you say, we have experienced players he can learn from. And you sort of learn on the job as well. I think I'm regretting my post the more I think of it. I should really give it five minute before posting after a loss. 

it's alright mate, lots of shite gets said heat of the moment around football fans - on the one hand, I understand what you're saying, it's a bit weird that it seems like we're pretty reliant on 2 very young defenders in Gomez and Trent and experience for them would be helpful. On the other hand, it'd slow down their growth to bring in experienced players that are actually better than them. Also I like having Trent in the side, because it always feels right to have at least one Scouser out on the pitch for us.