The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[OrangeKhrush]

international tournaments on international waters sounds like the swimming section of a iron man

[OrangeKhrush]

the solution to many problems is to stop being soft,  softness creates weakness which emboldens the wrong kinds.   The soft hands approach on terror groups like the Houthis, Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qeada has let to a massive spike in their ranks,  they see the west as weak and feeble.   

5 in 10 arab migrants to the UK want Sharia Law,  that is a scary statistic that while you preach the current western mantra of not upsetting feels,  the people that come are fuck all interested in the western way of life other than milking our kindness and showing absolute disrespect in return,  nobody will respect you when they know they can get let off for anything because its "nice" to.     

[Stan]

1 hour ago, OrangeKhrush said:

5 in 10 arab migrants to the UK want Sharia Law

Source? 

If I'm right in thinking, that's still only approximately 300,000 Arab migrants each year according to the 2021 census. Also, what are you defining as 'Arab'? What shade of brown do you use to determine it? 

So half of that apparently wanting Sharia Law isn't actually that big a number when you think of the numbers needed to be elected into power in the UK and actually bring in such a law. It's never gonna happen so it's only scary if you're the scaremonger... 

[OrangeKhrush]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

Source? 

If I'm right in thinking, that's still only approximately 300,000 Arab migrants each year according to the 2021 census. Also, what are you defining as 'Arab'? What shade of brown do you use to determine it? 

So half of that apparently wanting Sharia Law isn't actually that big a number when you think of the numbers needed to be elected into power in the UK and actually bring in such a law. It's never gonna happen so it's only scary if you're the scaremonger... 

typically I would agree it isn't or at least doesn't seem realistic, however modern politics sees power in the perception of societal fallacies like systemic racism, oppression etc, smart politicians and media mouth pieces can push strong campaigns on said talking points.

Scotland and Ireland are proof that dangerous rhetoric and alienation and persecution of true blood Scots and Irish can lead to policies that encourage mass migration and if you dissent you can be imprisoned.   In England it may not yet be a reality but the last few months seeing people arrested for staying they really want a referendum on the situation and a plan of action, they are branded anti immigration, right wing and racists even if said people are not and include mostly liberal persons which England is predominantly central and either left or right of center.  

the advent of mobile internet has opened up the opportunity to guilt trip people.  the common way is, your forefathers did this, now you must apologise for your "privilege".  if you dont you will be condemmed by a mob of converted nihalists.

[Stan]

25 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

typically I would agree it isn't or at least doesn't seem realistic, however modern politics sees power in the perception of societal fallacies like systemic racism, oppression etc, smart politicians and media mouth pieces can push strong campaigns on said talking points.

Scotland and Ireland are proof that dangerous rhetoric and alienation and persecution of true blood Scots and Irish can lead to policies that encourage mass migration and if you dissent you can be imprisoned.   In England it may not yet be a reality but the last few months seeing people arrested for staying they really want a referendum on the situation and a plan of action, they are branded anti immigration, right wing and racists even if said people are not and include mostly liberal persons which England is predominantly central and either left or right of center.  

the advent of mobile internet has opened up the opportunity to guilt trip people.  the common way is, your forefathers did this, now you must apologise for your "privilege".  if you dont you will be condemmed by a mob of converted nihalists.

So what's the source of '5 in 10 Arab migrants want Sharia Law in the UK'?

[MUFC]

7 minutes ago, Stan said:

So what's the source of '5 in 10 Arab migrants want Sharia Law in the UK'?

The IDF weekly magazine?

[OrangeKhrush]

8 minutes ago, Stan said:

So what's the source of '5 in 10 Arab migrants want Sharia Law in the UK'?

it was in a telegraph article.

[OrangeKhrush]

2 minutes ago, MUFC said:

The IDF weekly magazine?

ImportHub

[Stan]

15 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

it was in a telegraph article.

Any link to it?

The only thing I can find is an article from 2006 - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

'poll reveals 40% of Muslims want Sharia Law in UK'.

a) 40% is not 5 out of 10, if this is the article you are referring to.

b) If this is what you're referring to, it's been 17 years since then. And Sharia Law is not a mainstream law or governing policy in the UK. So much for all the scariness that it's going to take over, right?

c) 41% of Muslims actually opposed Sharia Law based on that article. Funnily enough this is not mentioned by you. 

d) only 500 people were surveyed. I'm sure even you can understand that this is a significantly small proportion of people and can't realistically or sensibly be applied to all Muslims in UK. Not least 17 years on...

 

If you have any other links/references to an article backing up your quote, do provide it.  

[Bluebird Hewitt]

Some Palestinians have been detained by Israeli forces and stripped, with one Palestinian journalist amongst them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67659296

[Stan]

3 minutes ago, Bluebird Hewitt said:

Some Palestinians have been detained by Israeli forces and stripped, with one Palestinian journalist amongst them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67659296

IDF will no doubt say they were 'actors' or that they are Hamas military. 

They've been proven to lie about lots of stuff so far, and part of me thinks this is another...

[Michael]

2 hours ago, Stan said:

So what's the source of '5 in 10 Arab migrants want Sharia Law in the UK'?

There is no source, we both know that he's made that up. It doesn't take an age for him to send you the link you requested, it just doesn't exist.

[Michael]

5 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

the solution to many problems is to stop being soft,  softness creates weakness which emboldens the wrong kinds.   The soft hands approach on terror groups like the Houthis, Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qeada has let to a massive spike in their ranks,  they see the west as weak and feeble.   

5 in 10 arab migrants to the UK want Sharia Law,  that is a scary statistic that while you preach the current western mantra of not upsetting feels,  the people that come are fuck all interested in the western way of life other than milking our kindness and showing absolute disrespect in return,  nobody will respect you when they know they can get let off for anything because its "nice" to.     

They will always be there, whether they see the West as weak and feeble or not. They are fanatics, they will always fight those they don't see eye to eye with or those they perceive as being evil, in their own warped perspective. Moreover, you can't be associating migrants with these terror groups, even though a few of them might have some allegiance towards them. 

[Stan]

23 minutes ago, Michael said:

There is no source, we both know that he's made that up. It doesn't take an age for him to send you the link you requested, it just doesn't exist.

I know mate, but I want to see the admittance of bullshit. 

[Rucksackfranzose]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

I know mate, but I want to see the admittance of bullshit. 

Good luck, won't happen.

[Redcanuck]

2 hours ago, Bluebird Hewitt said:

Some Palestinians have been detained by Israeli forces and stripped, with one Palestinian journalist amongst them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67659296

I read that they were Hamas militants who surrendered on mass in Khan Younis

[Stan]

42 minutes ago, Redcanuck said:

I read that they were Hamas militants who surrendered on mass in Khan Younis

Do you believe that?

[Redcanuck]

26 minutes ago, Stan said:

Do you believe that?

Have no way of knowing for sure?   

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 hours ago, Stan said:

Any link to it?

The only thing I can find is an article from 2006 - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

'poll reveals 40% of Muslims want Sharia Law in UK'.

a) 40% is not 5 out of 10, if this is the article you are referring to.

b) If this is what you're referring to, it's been 17 years since then. And Sharia Law is not a mainstream law or governing policy in the UK. So much for all the scariness that it's going to take over, right?

c) 41% of Muslims actually opposed Sharia Law based on that article. Funnily enough this is not mentioned by you. 

d) only 500 people were surveyed. I'm sure even you can understand that this is a significantly small proportion of people and can't realistically or sensibly be applied to all Muslims in UK. Not least 17 years on...

 

If you have any other links/references to an article backing up your quote, do provide it.  

40% of UK Muslims wanting Sharia Law in the UK is still fucking disturbing and shocking.

I’m the son of someone who was sent running from living under an Islamic theocracy. Iran wasn’t a free country, but it was a hell of a lot more free than it would become after 1979. A lot of people’s lives changed for the worst, a lot of people got arrested, tortured, and/or killed just for political views. They made pop music illegal! They even had to control what kind of entertainment people could enjoy!

A lot of families from Muslim countries that fled the places where extremists pushing their insane views. For 40% of them to want that same kind of shit brought to the UK is nothing short of insanity.

There’s nothing wrong with the sample size either. If there’s 3.9m Muslims in the UK roughly (that’s what Google told me so it could be wrong I just went with the first # I could find quickly to save time), if you want a survey with a 95% confidence interval - you’d only need a sample size of about 395 for a population of 4m. Obviously that doesn’t mean there aren’t other flaws in the methodology for the survey. But sample size isn’t one of them.

[Dr. Gonzo]

32 minutes ago, Stan said:

Do you believe that?

I do because I think the photos are being distributed as “revenge” for when Hamas paraded stripped captured IDF forces after their attack.

[Stan]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

40% of UK Muslims wanting Sharia Law in the UK is still fucking disturbing and shocking.

 

THIS ISN'T THE VOICE OF ALL THE MUSLIMS IN THE UK THOUGH. THIS IS MY POINT ABOUT SAMPLE SIZE.

40% is high. But It's 40% of only 500 people asked.  

It's like saying 80% of UK people want to see Tories remain in government.

But when you look a bit deeper, the survey was only asked to 200 people. And those 200 people lived in a Tory heartland.

Does it reflect the whole country? No. Does it reflect the views of anyone else outside of that area? No. 

It's a very narrow and small selection of people to choose from. There's still a large degree of uncertainty based on so few people being asked.

The data is also from 2006. It's outdated. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

THIS ISN'T THE VOICE OF ALL THE MUSLIMS IN THE UK THOUGH. THIS IS MY POINT ABOUT SAMPLE SIZE.

40% is high. But It's 40% of only 500 people asked.  

It's like saying 80% of UK people want to see Tories remain in government.

But when you look a bit deeper, the survey was only asked to 200 people. And those 200 people lived in a Tory heartland.

Does it reflect the whole country? No. Does it reflect the views of anyone else outside of that area? No. 

It's a very narrow and small selection of people to choose from. There's still a large degree of uncertainty based on so few people being asked.

The data is also from 2006. It's outdated. 

But that sample size is good enough to give a 95% confidence interval in a population of 4m. The number of people asked isn’t really an issue to give out a statement saying x amount of people out of 4m people feel this way. You can say “it’s not enough people” but maths says it is.

There’s always a degree of “wrongness” with surveys. They aren’t claiming to be 100% accurate.

There’s other biases (sampling bias - so not getting a diverse enough group of people responding from to accurately reflect a population; response bias - who knows who answered truthfully and who didn’t; even the way the questions are worded can create a bias).

I have no idea what possible flaws in the methodology - it definitely has some, all surveys do. They are all accurate and inaccurate to a degree.

I think it’s strange 40% of the people asked were in a Tory stronghold and still they got the results they did tbh.

[Stan]

39 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

But that sample size is good enough to give a 95% confidence interval in a population of 4m. The number of people asked isn’t really an issue to give out a statement saying x amount of people out of 4m people feel this way. You can say “it’s not enough people” but maths says it is.

There’s always a degree of “wrongness” with surveys. They aren’t claiming to be 100% accurate.

There’s other biases (sampling bias - so not getting a diverse enough group of people responding from to accurately reflect a population; response bias - who knows who answered truthfully and who didn’t; even the way the questions are worded can create a bias).

I have no idea what possible flaws in the methodology - it definitely has some, all surveys do. They are all accurate and inaccurate to a degree.

I think it’s strange 40% of the people asked were in a Tory stronghold and still they got the results they did tbh.

They weren't asked in a Tory stronghold (to my knowledge). I was only giving that as another example.

My issue with sample size of this particular survey is that is then extrapolated to be the view of UK Muslims as if it is gospel. It's just patently not true to assume or give that as a conclusion to the survey. It's misinformation and misleading.

I know they aren't claiming to be 100% accurate, but I also don't believe that how people were feeling in 2006 is also the same as how people feel in 2023. It's a long time-frame to cast the same conclusions with. 

Also, my other point (which is what I was getting at earlier anyway) is if people wanted Sharia Law to become so popular in UK so much so as perceived by the other poster, it's probably quite telling that absolutely nothing has happened to make that actually happen a whole 17 years later. Not even close to happening.

[Dr. Gonzo]

8 minutes ago, Stan said:

They weren't asked in a Tory stronghold (to my knowledge). I was only giving that as another example.

My issue with sample size of this particular survey is that is then extrapolated to be the view of UK Muslims as if it is gospel. It's just patently not true to assume or give that as a conclusion to the survey. It's misinformation and misleading.

I know they aren't claiming to be 100% accurate, but I also don't believe that how people were feeling in 2006 is also the same as how people feel in 2023. It's a long time-frame to cast the same conclusions with. 

Also, my other point (which is what I was getting at earlier anyway) is if people wanted Sharia Law to become so popular in UK so much so as perceived by the other poster, it's probably quite telling that absolutely nothing has happened to make that actually happen a whole 17 years later. Not even close to happening.

Again though, that's not really an issue with the sample size - the number of people that were asked the question is fine. That the findings are extrapolated to the entirety of the population from a sample of the population isn't really an issue with the survey. That's what surveys do, you take a sample size that's big enough to give you the confidence interval you want... and then you can take the data and use that to extrapolate to say "these are the findings for this population with whatever confidence level we used."

The issue is we don't really know much else about the methodology. How was the question worded? Where did they find the 500 respondents? Were they all outside mosques? Because you'll probably find more diehard believers at Mosques. Every survey like this will have issues with bias - and there's things that can be done to minimise bias and get better results. And yes, getting a larger sample size can help (although you'll find after a certain point, adding to a sample size really doesn't change a whole lot).

The Telegraph is reporting on the study because it's shocking to say 40% of UK Muslims support Sharia law. They don't really have a care about any bias problems in a survey. They care about spreading information that makes people afraid of Muslims and wants to end immigrants from those countries coming to the UK. 

But regardless of whatever biases do exist in the methodology that might taint the results... as someone who works with statistics an awful lot at work, I think its definitely concerning that any survey could lead to 40% of respondents being pro-Sharia law. Anything above 10% in a study with a 95% confidence interval would be concerning to me, even if the actual study had massive flaws. Because it is insane to me that people could have family that have brought them away from that kind of shit, or even found themselves fleeing or displaced from that shit, and still want that brought to the UK.

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if one of the problems with this is asking immigrants from Muslim countries if they're a "British Muslim" might invoke a reaction like "absolutely not" - my mum's from a Muslim country, she is very much not religious and doesn't identify as religious at all even if her grandparents were practicing Muslims and her parents, my grandparents, identified as Muslim but in practice were very secular. So are they excluding a group of people they would have wanted included in the survey simply by the way the question is phrased? Are they limiting the possibility of appropriate respondents by making the population only "British Muslims?" Cos I am just shocked by even a very flawed survey (and I don't know how flawed this survey was) would end up with those results - although I still think it is concerning if that many believers felt that way in the UK. Regardless if nothing has happened in 17 years later to make Sharia law closer to happening - that's still a dangerous view to be held by a pretty large number of people.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I do think if Israelis are serious about not wanting to appear genocidal on the world stage, they should do something about the political culture of extremists they've cultivated. 

this is insane genocidal rhetoric that does nothing to create peace between the two people. This is akin to shit Nazis said about Jews and that's why Israel gets criticised for acting like Nazis.

Innocent Israelis and Palestinians end up dying because crazy people like this dickhead and the leaders of Hamas have power and they just want to kill off their "enemies." That is the most horrific thing about this conflict. For decades the world sits back and watches as innocent people die because two sides of genocidal fuckheads refuse to stop being genocidal fuckheads.