The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[OrangeKhrush]

Just now, Stan said:

Civil unrest? Are you sure? 

With the growing sentiment against uncontrolled immigration,  naturalised citizens will not tolerate being dumped with other peoples problems.

[Stan]

8 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

With the growing sentiment against uncontrolled immigration,  naturalised citizens will not tolerate being dumped with other peoples problems.

If they're not Arab or Muslim they'll be welcomed with open arms. Ukrainians were last year...

Shame that I have to say that but it appears to be the reality. 

[Redcanuck]

49 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

There is a story going around that Israel and the west, namely west europe and north america will take on huge amounts of relocated people,  i am pretty sure that was not democratically decided but according to that rumour,  Israel is going to empty Gaza,  no other arab states will take the palastinians so again the undesirables will end up in places where people don't want them but to scared to say anything about it. 

Personally i don't think that story was true as America or the UK taking on mass refugees would lead to civil unrest.   I would say even france and germany at this point would decend into chaos if more are let in. 

The Americans won't take them.  There are bills going  throuhg the US Congress to not take any refugees from Gaza.   I am sure the piece of shit that mascarades  as our PM would take the lot.    Jordan and Egypt should take them. 

[Reluctant Striker]

40 minutes ago, Stan said:

If they're not Arab or Muslim they'll be welcomed with open arms. Ukrainians were last year...

Shame that I have to say that but it appears to be the reality. 

I don't know.. if people are still talking about it, then racism is still a thing, yes. And it is difficult to imagine any UK political side advocating for taking in civilian Palestinians. Rather than 'Israel needs to abide by international law' because they're not Russia.

But I think Brexit must have had an amount of some levels of society wanting less white Europeans. It definitely wasn't anything to do with Asia & Africa. The ones that did want Brexit just moved onto them as the next thing.

And the Conservative route to Britain for Ukraine was by a British person nominating they personally could house them. It wasn't like they were being welcomed on mass into hotels, pending a council property.

[Stan]

1 minute ago, Reluctant Striker said:

And the Conservative route to Britain for Ukraine was by a British person nominating they personally could house them. It wasn't like they were being welcomed on mass into hotels, pending a council property.

But in that, where's the help to house an innocent Palestinian? 

1 minute ago, Reluctant Striker said:

But I think Brexit must have had an amount of some levels of society wanting less white Europeans. It definitely wasn't anything to do with Asia & Africa. The ones that did want Brexit just moved onto them as the next thing.

 

Brexit had a HUGE impact on how society in UK became even more fractured and divided. It allowed there to be a voice for racists and bigots and almost have it verified because of how the Tories framed their propaganda. 

2 minutes ago, Reluctant Striker said:

I don't know.. if people are still talking about it, then racism is still a thing, yes. And it is difficult to imagine any UK political side advocating for taking in civilian Palestinians. Rather than 'Israel needs to abide by international law' because they're not Russia.

 

It shouldn't have to be said, of course. But even if it wasn't, racism is still a thing?

[Redcanuck]

52 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

With the growing sentiment against uncontrolled immigration,  naturalised citizens will not tolerate being dumped with other peoples problems.

Ever read Enoch Powell's  "Rivers of Blood " speech?  People have been saying that for over 50 years.  

[Dr. Gonzo]

11 minutes ago, Redcanuck said:

The Americans won't take them.  There are bills going  throuhg the US Congress to not take any refugees from Gaza.   I am sure the piece of shit that mascarades  as our PM would take the lot.    Jordan and Egypt should take them. 

If Israel is going to finish off the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, leaving no option other than a humanitarian crisis for the west to deal with it... it's hard to say these countries aren't reaping what they've sown.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration is the best argument for why the UK has a lot of culpability in this issue and if the west is going to have to clean up Israel's mess, I think it's hard to say that the US and UK shouldn't bear most of the brunt of the refugee crisis.

[Reluctant Striker]

11 minutes ago, Stan said:

But in that, where's the help to house an innocent Palestinian? 

Brexit had a HUGE impact on how society in UK became even more fractured and divided. It allowed there to be a voice for racists and bigots and almost have it verified because of how the Tories framed their propaganda. 

It shouldn't have to be said, of course. But even if it wasn't, racism is still a thing?

I do agree on how bad the direction has been since Brexit, with all those new chat-news TV channels. It does feel to me like things are regressing.

I do hope the next election gets us heading in a better direction.

[Redcanuck]

48 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If Israel is going to finish off the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, leaving no option other than a humanitarian crisis for the west to deal with it... it's hard to say these countries aren't reaping what they've sown.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration is the best argument for why the UK has a lot of culpability in this issue and if the west is going to have to clean up Israel's mess, I think it's hard to say that the US and UK shouldn't bear most of the brunt of the refugee crisis.

The Balfour Declaration  in 1917 where the UK recognized the need for a Jewish homeland is only one of the political agreements that have caused this mess.  Two years earlier there was the McMhon-Hussein Correspondence,  where the UK recognized Arab independece in the area due to the " Arab Revolt" against the Ottoman Empire during WW1.  Then there was the Sykes-Picot Agreement in 1916 that divided the area between France and Britain. That was followed by the League of Nations "Palastinian Mandate" in 1922-24  where control of the area was given to Britain in order to create a Jewish homeland.   The British then took 77% of the area and created Trans Jordan. The Americans don't come off without their share of blame either President FDR  vaivered back and forth in meetings with both Arabs and Jews sometimes showing support for a Jewish homeland, while other times telling the Arabs it won't happen without their consent.

Yeah the British and the Americans and the French who have their hands all over the area as well, deserve their share of the blame for the situation , but that doesn't mean they or any other country in the West will take in any refugees from the Gaza.  Look at the protests in the streets and universities of our cities and universities,  why would we let in more people who don't like us or respect our values.  It's time for the Arab world to take care of their own.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Redcanuck

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Redcanuck said:

why woukd we let in more people who don't like us or respect our values.

Because your governments have broken their homeland and supported their hypothetical forced removal for the past 100 years. Same reason my mum's family ended up in the UK after the US and UK fucked around in their country, left it broken and couldn't be bothered to clean up the fucking mess they created.

If you want a world with less extremists - while also supporting an extreme foreign policy, you let refugees rebuild their lives in places that offer stability and peace and that actually have opportunities for upward mobility. And if western governments are going to sit by and allow ethnic cleansing by a close ally, the only way they can even come close to cleaning up the mess is by giving that path to refugees.

If the West's goal is more stability in the region, to prevent future terror attacks and whatnot... perhaps not following in the footsteps of the Afghanistan withdrawal human crisis is a good idea to follow. It's a guaranteed way of making countries that are already lacking a good amount of stability even more unstable. Furthermore, it's not like Arab countries have a great track record with refugees lol.

I think the alternative to the west taking in refugees in this hypothetical would simply just mean an even less stable Middle East. I don't think it would make anyone safer, nor would it mitigate how bad the humanitarian crisis would be.

[Dr. Gonzo]

By the way, protesting in the streets without fear of political reprisal or risking your life or well-being is a very western value.

If you don't believe me, go try to organise a protest in Iran or Saudi Arabia and let us know how it ends up.

[OrangeKhrush]

Ethnic cleansing and genocide are gaslight terms used without consideration of facts.   The Palestinian population has increased 2.5% year over year 22-23 that is not ethnic cleansing,  this is not a conflict of land, it is a conflict of religion,  religious extremist group who's sole obsession is to eradicate Jews an Israel like the good old days. 

Jews have been exiles in their own land for near on a millennia,  whether it was Philistines, Assyrians, Babylonians, Byzantine Greeks, Romans, Saleucids, Persians,  it was around 400 years since Jews were able to enter the temple at Hebron,  the second holiest place to Hebrews.    Prior to the Ottomans,  Jews were prevented from entering Jerusalem whether it was Arabs or Christians. 

Historical title belongs to the Jews,  the lands of canaan and judea predate islam by a substantial margin,  that is why giving them land doesn't change the outcomes,  they just want to kill. 

[Redcanuck]

23 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Historical title belongs to the Jews,  the lands of canaan and judea predate islam by a substantial margin,  that is why giving them land doesn't change the outcomes,  they just want to kill. 

Israel has tried to trade land for peace for far too long, it's time to try something else.

[Dr. Gonzo]

39 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Ethnic cleansing and genocide are gaslight terms used without consideration of facts.   The Palestinian population has increased 2.5% year over year 22-23 that is not ethnic cleansing,  this is not a conflict of land, it is a conflict of religion,  religious extremist group who's sole obsession is to eradicate Jews an Israel like the good old days. 

Jews have been exiles in their own land for near on a millennia,  whether it was Philistines, Assyrians, Babylonians, Byzantine Greeks, Romans, Saleucids, Persians,  it was around 400 years since Jews were able to enter the temple at Hebron,  the second holiest place to Hebrews.    Prior to the Ottomans,  Jews were prevented from entering Jerusalem whether it was Arabs or Christians. 

Historical title belongs to the Jews,  the lands of canaan and judea predate islam by a substantial margin,  that is why giving them land doesn't change the outcomes,  they just want to kill. 

Forcibly removing people from a region they're living in is ethnic cleansing. Genocide's not a gaslight term - there's a definition from UN from the convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide. Population percentage has fuck all to do with what constitutes genocide - and that's a fact.

Under international law, you've got genocide when: any of the following acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: a.) killing members of the group; b.) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; c.) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; d.) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; e.) forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

So just like Russia in Ukraine, both Hamas and Israel pretty clearly fit the definition of genocidal actors in the eyes of the UN.

Honestly, historical title to the land means fuck all. The Canaanites and Phoenicians don't exist anymore. Both Arabs and Mizrahi Jews can claim Canaanite and Phoenician ancestry. History doesn't justify the Nakba or the erosion of Palestinian lands and rights. History doesn't justify Hamas's terrorism. It's very much a conflict of land, that is egged on by zealots in the region to turn it into something of a holy war.

23 minutes ago, Redcanuck said:

Israel has tried to trade land for peace for far too long, it's time to try something else.

Israel hasn't made attempts at making a lasting meaningful peace since 1995 when Rabin was assassinated by an extremist Israeli. They aren't blameless in this. They're just as not serious about a peaceful resolution to the conflict as Palestinian leadership is.

Ordinary Israelis and Palestinians are the victims of decades of leadership that's had no interest in creating peace. A lot of blood is on the Palestinian and Israeli leaderships hands.

[Redcanuck]

34 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Forcibly removing people from a region they're living in is ethnic cleansing. Genocide's not a gaslight term - there's a definition from UN from the convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide. Population percentage has fuck all to do with what constitutes genocide - and that's a fact.

Under international law, you've got genocide when: any of the following acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: a.) killing members of the group; b.) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; c.) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; d.) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; e.) forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

So just like Russia in Ukraine, both Hamas and Israel pretty clearly fit the definition of genocidal actors in the eyes of the UN.

Honestly, historical title to the land means fuck all. The Canaanites and Phoenicians don't exist anymore. Both Arabs and Mizrahi Jews can claim Canaanite and Phoenician ancestry. History doesn't justify the Nakba or the erosion of Palestinian lands and rights. History doesn't justify Hamas's terrorism. It's very much a conflict of land, that is egged on by zealots in the region to turn it into something of a holy war.

Israel hasn't made attempts at making a lasting meaningful peace since 1995 when Rabin was assassinated by an extremist Israeli. They aren't blameless in this. They're just as not serious about a peaceful resolution to the conflict as Palestinian leadership is.

Ordinary Israelis and Palestinians are the victims of decades of leadership that's had no interest in creating peace. A lot of blood is on the Palestinian and Israeli leaderships hands.

Israel has withdrawn form the Gaza Strip and the West Bank since Rabin was killed.   Hasn't stopped groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, Redcanuck said:

Israel has withdrawn form the Gaza Strip and the West Bank since Rabin was killed.   Hasn't stopped groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.

The West Bank is still heavily occupied by Israel and has constant illegal settlements pop up with no real retaliation from the Israeli government while the IDF provides protection to the illegal settlements on what is internationally Palestinian land.

Israel withdrew from Gaza, but once Hamas took control of Gaza - they did their usual terrorist bullshit and in response Israel began the blockade of Gaza. So rather than do anything to weaken Hamas's grip on Gaza, their actions played right into the propaganda of Hamas and created new generations of emotionally scarred kids easy to radicalise into giving their lives to fight for the revenge of their people.

The Times of Israel wrote a pretty scathing article about what @Beelzebub cited much earlier in the thread: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ - propping up Hamas as a means of eroding public support for a 2 state solution has massively backfired. This is a real quote from their current PM: "whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for transferring funds to Gaza, because maintaining a separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state." It's in reference to his government's support of resuming the practice of allowing Qatari cash to make it's way to Hamas in Gaza - which their last PM before their criminal PM, had put a brief stop to while his government was in charge for 18 months.

Ben Gvir being Netanyahu's Minister of National Security is another example of how the current Israeli government is not demonstrating a desire for a meaningful and lasting peace. Two weeks before Rabin was assassinated, he stole Rabin's car's hood ornament and told cameras "Just like we got to this emblem, we could get to Rabin." That's a pretty direct example of the kind of stochastic terrorism Netanyahu and his followers used against Rabin for daring to try to pursue a 2 state solution to resolve the conflict. Ben Gvir, by the way, has 8 Israeli criminal convictions, including terrorism convictions and a conviction to incite anti-Arab racism. He was rejected from the IDF because he is a hateful extremist. He's now in charge of all Israeli police and Israel's national security.

The current government of Israel and Hamas have very similar ideas on what should be done with Israel/Palestine - they just differ on how they want the land ethnically cleansed. Netanyahu belongs in an Israeli prison cell and Israel would be better off with leadership that is serious about resolving this conflict in a way that can bring about peace without trying to remove a group of people entirely from the land. Just like Gaza would be better off if they were not under the boot of Hamas.

[OrangeKhrush]

6 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The West Bank is still heavily occupied by Israel and has constant illegal settlements pop up with no real retaliation from the Israeli government while the IDF provides protection to the illegal settlements on what is internationally Palestinian land.

Israel withdrew from Gaza, but once Hamas took control of Gaza - they did their usual terrorist bullshit and in response Israel began the blockade of Gaza. So rather than do anything to weaken Hamas's grip on Gaza, their actions played right into the propaganda of Hamas and created new generations of emotionally scarred kids easy to radicalise into giving their lives to fight for the revenge of their people.

The Times of Israel wrote a pretty scathing article about what @Beelzebub cited much earlier in the thread: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ - propping up Hamas as a means of eroding public support for a 2 state solution has massively backfired. This is a real quote from their current PM: "whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for transferring funds to Gaza, because maintaining a separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state." It's in reference to his government's support of resuming the practice of allowing Qatari cash to make it's way to Hamas in Gaza - which their last PM before their criminal PM, had put a brief stop to while his government was in charge for 18 months.

Ben Gvir being Netanyahu's Minister of National Security is another example of how the current Israeli government is not demonstrating a desire for a meaningful and lasting peace. Two weeks before Rabin was assassinated, he stole Rabin's car's hood ornament and told cameras "Just like we got to this emblem, we could get to Rabin." That's a pretty direct example of the kind of stochastic terrorism Netanyahu and his followers used against Rabin for daring to try to pursue a 2 state solution to resolve the conflict. Ben Gvir, by the way, has 8 Israeli criminal convictions, including terrorism convictions and a conviction to incite anti-Arab racism. He was rejected from the IDF because he is a hateful extremist. He's now in charge of all Israeli police and Israel's national security.

The current government of Israel and Hamas have very similar ideas on what should be done with Israel/Palestine - they just differ on how they want the land ethnically cleansed. Netanyahu belongs in an Israeli prison cell and Israel would be better off with leadership that is serious about resolving this conflict in a way that can bring about peace without trying to remove a group of people entirely from the land. Just like Gaza would be better off if they were not under the boot of Hamas.

its no different to the CIA creating what became Al Qaeda and other militant groups from south America, middleast and Asia.  

Eventually rebel groups embrace their own fictitious cause.  HAMAS has been able to indoctrinate a generation on a lie.

[Stan]

Yeah this war is never ending 

 

Like when a hypothetical unstoppable force meets an immovable object... 

[Harry]

13 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

There is a story going around that Israel and the west, namely west europe and north america will take on huge amounts of relocated people,  i am pretty sure that was not democratically decided but according to that rumour,  Israel is going to empty Gaza,  no other arab states will take the palastinians so again the undesirables will end up in places where people don't want them but to scared to say anything about it. 

Personally i don't think that story was true as America or the UK taking on mass refugees would lead to civil unrest.   I would say even france and germany at this point would decend into chaos if more are let in. 

To me that seems like a story that would build anti Israel support on the far right, which just seems a bit too convenient.

[OrangeKhrush]

45 minutes ago, Harry said:

To me that seems like a story that would build anti Israel support on the far right, which just seems a bit too convenient.

given the state of American monkey flinging shit at each other, it does conveniently look like an option to play the racist card.

69% of poking Americans are concerned about immigration problems on the southern border most are democrats.

I think that story was bs

[MUFC]

There are natural resources in Gaza and Israel have suppose to have issued contracts out?

https://www.planetcritical.com/p/everybody-wants-gazas-gas#:~:text=This gas field%2C the biggest,domestic demands for 40 years.

[Dr. Gonzo]

19 minutes ago, MUFC said:

There are natural resources in Gaza and Israel have suppose to have issued contracts out?

https://www.planetcritical.com/p/everybody-wants-gazas-gas#:~:text=This gas field%2C the biggest,domestic demands for 40 years.

Israel already has de facto control over these gas fields, though, so it's not as though they need to hold all of Gaza to profit from it.

[MUFC]

I'm going to put my predictions in about an hour before qualifying.

[nudge]

7 minutes ago, MUFC said:

I'm going to put my predictions in about an hour before qualifying.

Wrong thread, Nostradamus  

[Stan]

18 minutes ago, nudge said:

Wrong thread, Nostradamus  

He might want to predict what happens next in this war, and used F1 quali as a time-frame