Bumbling Boris Johnson New Prime Minister

[SirBalon]

24 minutes ago, Stick With Azeem said:

Who will do it first ? Trump makes America great again or Boris delivers Brexit !

The paradox... Both fantasy creations to feed stupid people and a contemporary method to obtain tenures in public office. 

[Fairy In Boots]

10 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Who told you there aren’t tariffs on beer?

There are tariffs on alcohol, there are infact tariffs on practically everything because it comes under the trading acts. You are bringing in products from a trading block and if you’re not a member... You pay! It’s like any other membership.

 

 

What does this have to do with my post you quoted? 

[SirBalon]

23 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

What does this have to do with my post you quoted? 

I have absolutely no idea and if you look at the subsequent posts it’s a debate between myself and @Dr. Gonzo.  Something weird happened there and I have no idea. It’s even in the wrong thread. 

[SirBalon]

 

[Fairy In Boots]

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

 

Lol you’ve become this forums left wing equivalent of Paul Joseph Watson 

[The Artful Dodger]

SirBalon isn't left wing

[Stan]

9 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Lol you’ve become this forums left wing equivalent of Paul Joseph Watson 

Not even close. 

[SirBalon]

7 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Lol you’ve become this forums left wing equivalent of Paul Joseph Watson 

It’s on the news for god’s sake!

Funny... You label me left-wing while others label me more to the right.

This is the great thing about being absent of any ideological political sentiment.

The Prime Minister of the UK being heckled and booed in the way he was in Scotland is news. But I understand you’d rather not have to see it.

Just throw a quip at the Scotts like you usually do as I’m not your problem.  

[Honey Honey]

11 hours ago, SirBalon said:

It doesn’t account for the duties paid for raw materials mate.

Without any type of trade agreement with the EU we will be paying more or one of the sectors from distribution to the actual supermarkets or local shops will have to cover the extra costs or we will.

Also remember another thing... Even products from food to any other point of UK production tends to use almost always materials (ingredients in the case of food products) from the EU. This will hit EVERY sector. 

Your graph is the tariff charged on goods entering the EU not leaving it. Your posts sound like you are mixing this up. The UK would pay UK set duties to import.

Of course the EU may well have export duties on its own goods. Do you have any documentation that we can see showing that the EU charges tariffs on its own exports? Economically to charge your own businesses a duty to sell alcohol outside of your market is one of the dumbest ideas in the modern world if it exists.

[Harry]

5 hours ago, Stick With Azeem said:

Who will do it first ? Trump makes America great again or Boris delivers Brexit !

Trump has already declared success, to the point his 2020 reelection tagline is "Keep America Great". 

Nobody said it could be done, yet he did it! Inside his first term!

[Fairy In Boots]

6 hours ago, Stan said:

Not even close. 

Not even a debate, he posts generic unconfirmed twitter posts relentlessly as if fact, some threads he can go 7-8 posts on his own without another person commenting. It’s very PJW, only thing missing is “imagine my shock” 

[Fairy In Boots]

6 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

SirBalon isn't left wing

He’s not left to you but definitely left of centre, you and Inverted are far left. Balon, Danny, Stan, 6666 are mid left I’d say. 

Harv is centre probably left leaning if any

I’m mid right to right of centre with occasional dead on centre but no doubt I’ll be tagged as “far right”

[Azeem]

I'm center back mostly with occasional runs up on either wings

[Kowabunga]

12 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

He’s not left to you but definitely left of centre, you and Inverted are far left. Balon, Danny, Stan, 6666 are mid left I’d say. 

Harv is centre probably left leaning if any

I’m mid right to right of centre with occasional dead on centre but no doubt I’ll be tagged as “far right”

Let me try. You are a closeted radical right wing nativist with a moving set of economic arguments (when it comes to rationalise nonsense) along this long thread (some would say that straight out from a textbook, but that I cannot fathom and I don't want to be conspiratorial), while probably keeping the same underlying ideas, the later most developed in terms of nativism and xenophobia, combined with a longing for a re-imagined thatcherite past in terms of economics (you may have wanted to get out from the thatcherite consensus at some point of your life, but at this current point of your life, why should you diverge from the mainstream and become a different right-wing individual in terms of economics? it's comfy as fuck!). Also priding about being an "anti-communist", as it were an actual thing in the UK (lol). You may also boast about being free from a religious worldview, and while true to a large extent, sometimes you may also inadvertely show vestigial features of social conservative values from your particular upbringing (maybe partially Irish catholic)?

[Dr. Gonzo]

I think if you've advocated for a no deal Brexit before, it's hard to be taken seriously if you're going to claim to be centre-right

[Fairy In Boots]

16 hours ago, Kowabunga said:

Let me try. You are a closeted radical right wing nativist with a moving set of economic arguments (when it comes to rationalise nonsense) along this long thread (some would say that straight out from a textbook, but that I cannot fathom and I don't want to be conspiratorial), while probably keeping the same underlying ideas, the later most developed in terms of nativism and xenophobia, combined with a longing for a re-imagined thatcherite past in terms of economics (you may have wanted to get out from the thatcherite consensus at some point of your life, but at this current point of your life, why should you diverge from the mainstream and become a different right-wing individual in terms of economics? it's comfy as fuck!). Also priding about being an "anti-communist", as it were an actual thing in the UK (lol). You may also boast about being free from a religious worldview, and while true to a large extent, sometimes you may also inadvertely show vestigial features of social conservative values from your particular upbringing (maybe partially Irish catholic)?

I’ve mentioned that before several times in reply to you, nice attempt to “nail me”

re Thatcherite I’m certainly that way in terms of the private sector is far more efficient than the public sector, this is just a fact of life. Profitability and productivity walk hand in hand and innovation is driven by the desire to achieve both. Although I am nationalistic and believe some core industries should receive national protection. Transport network, fossil fuels and steel would be paramount so I’d have disagreed with Marge on that score. Is also something I’m disgusted with the current government with also regarding the Chinese and 5G. 

Communism I’m using in a derogatory term to label what is Marxist ideological nonsense exposed by corbyn fans. His movement is essentially a millennial hissy fit for equality of outcome because they’ve all made shite life changes or they want more for less. It doesn’t work as a political system because it doesn’t reward or facilitate growth. I’d happily listen to an alternative idea but that one doesn’t work so I’m gonna keep calling it out when I see it. 

Nativist I’d probably agree, although I’m not wildly xenophobic, I freely and vehemently dislike Islam and would prefer its practitioners to leave as I believe it’s a counter productive ideology that holds back any society that it’s apart of. But take a secular doctor from say Syria that comes to the U.K. and works hard, adheres to laws and puts into the system I think should get just as fair a shake as an indigenous person doing likewise, I’d rather share the country with this hypothetical doctor than  our own dossers tbh. I’m nativist in the sense that I believe we brits are entitled to our relative wealth and comfort because it’s the sum amount of our countrymen’s productivity before us and I appreciate that. 

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think if you've advocated for a no deal Brexit before, it's hard to be taken seriously if you're going to claim to be centre-right

Bollocks it’s a fucking trading block we’re not giving to open concentration camps for polish people. 

We default to WTO trading, that will probably push up prices on EU imports but may deflate prices on none EU imports. We adhere to ECHR because it’s a none EU body. 

All that happens is we don’t have the 21month transitional period which may well cause probably a quarter of disruption before business reacts and adapts, like all flux there will be winners and losers, it’s a gamble but rather gamble than accept that shitty deal we were given. 

 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

You can be right wing without being far-right? I'm not saying all people who are right wing want to kill all brown people  - the biggest proponents of a no deal Brexit are those that want to turn the UK into a tax haven for large corporations and the ultra-wealthy, and disaster capitalists who see profit upon forcing austerity and privitisation. These are not centre-right economic views. These are not centre views or to the left of centre.

The best argument I've heard for a No Deal Brexit is we will be immediately free to make trade agreements with other countries, which obviously we're unable to do as a EU member state. The downside to this argument, is our trade deals as a member are trade deals negotiated from the collective economic strength of the EU as a trade block. Whereas now future trade deals would be just with the UK, which gives us quite a bit less leverage than we'd have without Germany's manufacturing strength & France's agricultural strength, etc... The state of the political leadership in the UK and the fact we'll be entering into trade negotiations with a substantially weaker hand than we're used to does not exactly fill me with optimism.

If we tariff EU imports under the WTO, non-EU imports will be subject to the same tariffs. The tariffs are on goods, not on nations - it's a big part of the WTO, it's rules against discriminatory tariffs. Until new trade deals are in place, in a no deal Brexit, everyone should expect imports to cost more. And domestic products that use imported goods... those will cost more to make, so that's likely going to be another cost put on the consumer.

I agree that May's deal is dogshite and because of that, no deal is likely as fuck, but gambling on the long term health of our country's economy is not a moderate position by any stretch of imagination.

 

[SchalkeUK]

Keep the faith!  The 'majority' if it exists is apparently now down to one!

[SchalkeUK]

On ‎31‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 20:33, Dr. Gonzo said:

You can be right wing without being far-right? I'm not saying all people who are right wing want to kill all brown people  - the biggest proponents of a no deal Brexit are those that want to turn the UK into a tax haven for large corporations and the ultra-wealthy, and disaster capitalists who see profit upon forcing austerity and privitisation. These are not centre-right economic views. These are not centre views or to the left of centre.

The best argument I've heard for a No Deal Brexit is we will be immediately free to make trade agreements with other countries, which obviously we're unable to do as a EU member state. The downside to this argument, is our trade deals as a member are trade deals negotiated from the collective economic strength of the EU as a trade block. Whereas now future trade deals would be just with the UK, which gives us quite a bit less leverage than we'd have without Germany's manufacturing strength & France's agricultural strength, etc... The state of the political leadership in the UK and the fact we'll be entering into trade negotiations with a substantially weaker hand than we're used to does not exactly fill me with optimism.

If we tariff EU imports under the WTO, non-EU imports will be subject to the same tariffs. The tariffs are on goods, not on nations - it's a big part of the WTO, it's rules against discriminatory tariffs. Until new trade deals are in place, in a no deal Brexit, everyone should expect imports to cost more. And domestic products that use imported goods... those will cost more to make, so that's likely going to be another cost put on the consumer.

I agree that May's deal is dogshite and because of that, no deal is likely as fuck, but gambling on the long term health of our country's economy is not a moderate position by any stretch of imagination.

 

Cancel Article 50, then one week later invoke it anew (EU rules do not preclude that being possible) and take 95% of May's deal cancel the rest and add in a Norway/Canada style agreement on customs - no full customs union but it works for them and that would not require a NI border or backstop - or am I being naïve?

[SirBalon]

9 minutes ago, SchalkeUK said:

Cancel Article 50, then one week later invoke it anew (EU rules do not preclude that being possible) and take 95% of May's deal cancel the rest and add in a Norway/Canada style agreement on customs - no full customs union but it works for them and that would not require a NI border or backstop - or am I being naïve?

The Norway model is in the Single Market and by definition has FOM which is one of the red lines written into Theresa May's forced conditions, one of the four pillar of the European Union and unmovable.

Don't forget that the overriding reason most people voted for Brexit (to leave the EU) is down to immigration.

[SchalkeUK]

With the greatest respect to Sir Balon , the people voted not for any of the real reasons - most of which like Customs Union were never ever mentioned during the discussions, they voted for Johnson's and Gove's lies and the big number on the Bus - a bit like the 30's in Germany!

[SirBalon]

3 hours ago, SchalkeUK said:

With the greatest respect to Sir Balon , the people voted not for any of the real reasons - most of which like Customs Union were never ever mentioned during the discussions, they voted for Johnson's and Gove's lies and the big number on the Bus - a bit like the 30's in Germany!

No Deal wasn’t mentioned at all during the campaign leading to the 2016 EU Referendum (infact ot wasn’t mentioned until 2 months after the referendum. Yet people are now saying they voted for this. Leave voters voted for a multitude of reasons (myself included which is why I changed my mind when I sensed I’d been duped like a fool) while remainers voted simply to remain.

What I’m saying is that a binary vote was always going to lead to the massive division we now have.

[Dr. Gonzo]

10 hours ago, SchalkeUK said:

Cancel Article 50, then one week later invoke it anew (EU rules do not preclude that being possible) and take 95% of May's deal cancel the rest and add in a Norway/Canada style agreement on customs - no full customs union but it works for them and that would not require a NI border or backstop - or am I being naïve?

I mean I have no idea if you’re being naive or not tbh. One side of me says: after this many years of Article 50 being put in, I don’t think Europe will trust we’ll negotiate in good faith and will probably just stick to the deal that they made with May.

The other half of me thinks the EU are just a bunch of bureaucrats and if we procedurally started the process over, they’d be more inclined to give real negotiations ago.

The counterpoint to the “they’re bureaucrats, they’ll let us start afresh” is we’ve already kicked the can so far beyond the deadline. This would just be seen as further kicking it down the road and more stalling from the UK.

I think the best possible models for a UK post Brexit are Norway and Switzerland - although I think the Swiss model would mean more snap decisions by the British electorate in referendums and... well, I don’t have much faith in that being extra productive after recent history. But if no full customs union is something that the UK must have, then we can’t be an EEA country like those two.

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I mean I have no idea if you’re being naive or not tbh. One side of me says: after this many years of Article 50 being put in, I don’t think Europe will trust we’ll negotiate in good faith and will probably just stick to the deal that they made with May.

The other half of me thinks the EU are just a bunch of bureaucrats and if we procedurally started the process over, they’d be more inclined to give real negotiations ago.

The counterpoint to the “they’re bureaucrats, they’ll let us start afresh” is we’ve already kicked the can so far beyond the deadline. This would just be seen as further kicking it down the road and more stalling from the UK.

I think the best possible models for a UK post Brexit are Norway and Switzerland - although I think the Swiss model would mean more snap decisions by the British electorate in referendums and... well, I don’t have much faith in that being extra productive after recent history. But if no full customs union is something that the UK must have, then we can’t be an EEA country like those two.

Again, Norway are in the Single Market abd have FOM while Switzerland curbed FOM in 2014 I think but are about to have a new referendum on that point.

We can’t have the Norway model. It would cause a meltdown with Brexit voters and is the point of the remaining Brexiters that won’t change no matter how poor they’re gonna be with a No Deal Brexit.

The EU won’t re-negotiate as they’ve already been flexible enough.

It’s May’s Red Lines designed by the ERG (now in power) that have to be changed for there to be new negotiations.

[SchalkeUK]

The EU Constitution allows for Article 50 to be instigated and for it to be cancelled - there is no recourse to refuse to accept it again although for certain the regulations would be changed afterwards if someone tried it once. On the basis that no one in Brussels wants a 'no deal' departure there may well be acceptance of further negotiations which have been ruled out at present, but which would have to start afresh (include old ideas or not) if 50 was invoked for a second time.  May's red lines - it can be argued - were there to stop the whole process being agreed and we are at an impasse at the moment - Boris will not get a no deal finale through Parliament and could well lose his job if he pursues it so something has to give somewhere - as the last paragraph usually says - now read on......

As a final thought, one thing is certain - the present 'cabinet' thinking is made up of members who, frankly, are living in Cloud-Cuckoo land and have not the slightest idea what to do without Boris shouting at them. Some even believe he has a majority at Westminster and that the DUP will not do a Gove and push the knife deep into his back if it suits them! As for FOM that is a fantasy - we have never had that only a Home Office which is and never has been fit for purpose - the Aussie Idea would work fine here - if we had anybody with the capability of processing it! Without that our food would rot in the fields every year and our hospitals would be full of sick people and no one to look after them!