Temporary Form or Permanent Class?

[Batard]

A thread to capture some thoughts on players where we ask the immoral question, are they actually any good really or just having a 4 game blinder before abject failure awaits?

Teemu Pukki I think the lad is a good honest pro but I think he'll get found out once teams sit deeper to deny him space. Verdict: Zaki Version 2.0?

Leandro Trossard a bit wayward at times with his passing and shooting but when he gets it right there's a touch of class. This lad is the real deal. expecting a move to a much bigger club next season. Verdict: De Bruyne Boots 

Agree/Disagree? What are your thoughts?

[Spike]

Well it is complicated, I think it depends on the player. Michu had a hot season, so you could say that the form was temporary, but Fernando Torres was never the same after his knee injuries, so his class was temporary as well. Maybe it should be: ‘form comes and goes but class never returns’.

[Spike]

The more I think about it, the less I agree with ‘permanent class’. So many players fall, dip, rise, and return that I think class is nearly synonymous with form. Michel Owen’s career faltered, but Jurgen Klopp moved from forward to centre-half, with every players that fades away, another revitalises his career by adapting to change. When Giggs was no longer a pacey winger, he moved to central midfield, and Cristiano Ronaldo moved from a wide forward position to central.

Ronaldinho, Alex Pato, Michael Owen, Fernando Torres, Juan-Sebastain Veron, are examples of players that couldn’t dapt t change, whether it be injury or team.

[Batard]

Adapting to change and uncertainty is what separates the greats from the also-rans 

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Spike said:

The more I think about it, the less I agree with ‘permanent class’. So many players fall, dip, rise, and return that I think class is nearly synonymous with form. Michel Owen’s career faltered, but Jurgen Klopp moved from forward to centre-half, with every players that fades away, another revitalises his career by adapting to change. When Giggs was no longer a pacey winger, he moved to central midfield, and Cristiano Ronaldo moved from a wide forward position to central.

Ronaldinho, Alex Pato, Michael Owen, Fernando Torres, Juan-Sebastain Veron, are examples of players that couldn’t dapt t change, whether it be injury or team.

Depends on how you look at it. Belotti was once the next big thing but I could spot right away he was just in good form.

Physique is important and for me doesn't contribute to either class or form and is a category on its own but a damn important one.

[CaaC (John)+]

United's Roy was a box to box midfielder in his younger days but as he got older he became more of a DMF, the older you get the slower you get as per normal.

[Cicero]

Fernando Torres is interesting. Obviously he lost his biggest asset in his pace when his hamstring had gone, but he still had that bit of quality. 

I think his ultimate demise was the 2nd half of the 2010/11 season.  When we signed him, I thought he was incredible really. Those few months, will forever be a mystery to me. He did everything right apart from getting the ball in the back of the net, and it honestly felt like the universe was against him. That save from VDS in the CL summed up that half of the season for him. I believe that was the beginning of his loss in confidence. 

The start of the 2011/12 campaign, he was looked as the main man. He showed glimpses in quality, but that loss in pace really held him back from being as effective as he was. It was the open goal miss against United that did it. His head was gone, and so was his confidence in his ability. Couldn't do the simple things and it wasn't until Rafa came in where he really started to gain a little bit of that confidence back. 

It really is a sad story for Torres. I believe there was a quality footballer there even without his tremendous pace. 

[Spike]

12 minutes ago, Grizzly21 said:

Depends on how you look at it. Belotti was once the next big thing but I could spot right away he was just in good form.

Physique is important and for me doesn't contribute to either class or form and is a category on its own but a damn important one.

What are you talking about? Belotti is only 25 and came off a 15 goal season. He has many years ahead of him, and given the nature of Italian football, he'll probably hit 30 goals regularly by the time he is 32. He already has 4 goals this year.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

What are you talking about? Belotti is only 25 and came off a 15 goal season. He has many years ahead of him, and given the nature of Italian football, he'll probably hit 30 goals regularly by the time he is 32. He already has 4 goals this year.

He hasn't evolved as expected though. I personally think there is a reason he didn't make the jump like Dybala did after his wonder season at Palermo and thats because he's not that good.

[Spike]

10 minutes ago, Grizzly21 said:

He hasn't evolved as expected though. I personally think there is a reason he didn't make the jump like Dybala did after his wonder season at Palermo and thats because he's not that good.

Not that good? He has 70 goals in Serie A. Evolve? He is a centre-forward, what would he have evolved into? Diego Maradona dribbling through defences and splitting passes? He is a talented striker that works hard, people know what he is. I think you just want to be right about scouting him and calling him out on being a one-season wonder, which he clearly hasn't been. He may not have scored that many goals since but there is nothing suggesting that he won't or cannot. It is the same as Jaime Vardy, they are both limited strikers, but people are very keen to call them out when the goals dipp down. You could make the exact same arguement for Vardy as you could for Belotti, but here they are several seasons later and still scoring goals. 

Dybala is a special player, and that has been obvious since he started and it is disengenous to compare his career trajectory to another's. On the subject of comparison, compare Quagliarella to Belotti, if you like, those two players are far more similar and Quagliarella just finished his best season at 36 years old.

[Spike]

Besides, it is weird when say a player scores 30 goals, and people say 'he isn't that good, just on great form', well if he isn't that good, how did he score 30 times? Just because it cannot be replicated in a later or earlier season doesn't mean for that one season they were 'that good'. Michu was that good for a single season, he was amazing, players aren't stuck at a static level of class throughout their careers. 

 

[Inverted]

I think Pukki is more an example of a late bloomer. He struggled for minutes in Germany, came to Scotland and had a hard time, then went to Denmark and gradually developed into a reliable goalscorer. Went to the Championship and proved himself in a higher-quality league, and now he's earned a place in the PL. 

I don't think he's a top-class player, but he's tactically intelligent and hard-working, and for years he has shown a relentless determination to improve. He's had a hot start, and might "only" end up with 10-15 goals, but he's definitely a player worth having for a side in the lower-mid end of the table. 

[Guest]

@Spike goals are needed to win games and are the most important stat, but I think its telling that he's not been snapped up by other clubs. Vardy is a good comparison but I honestly think he is better than Belotti. By evolve I meant step up to a bigger club. Its the same with the Peruvian players, they don't ever evolve and that's because they aren't top players for the most part.

In fact I think most secondary South American nations are good examples of this. Peru has talent but not the "class". We are able to outperform teams like Chile, Uruguay Croatia, etc but when it comes to teams like France or Brasil, if we win its usually made very hard work of it. That's because their team has class, not players who will hit form and do well for a bit. Most of the other teams I've mentioned have at most 3 top players but compared to Brazil, France or Germany who have a full team of quality players that play in top leagues, it becomes more noticeable who has "performing" players and who actually has top players.

 

[Spike]

3 minutes ago, Grizzly21 said:

@Spike goals are needed to win games and are the most important stat, but I think its telling that he's not been snapped up by other clubs. Vardy is a good comparison but I honestly think he is better than Belotti. By evolve I meant step up to a bigger club. Its the same with the Peruvian players, they don't ever evolve and that's because they aren't top players for the most part.

In fact I think most secondary South American nations are good examples of this. Peru has talent but not the "class". We are able to outperform teams like Chile, Uruguay Croatia, etc but when it comes to teams like France or Brasil, if we win its usually made very hard work of it. That's because their team has class, not players who will hit form and do well for a bit. Most of the other teams I've mentioned have at most 3 top players but compared to Brazil, France or Germany who have a full team of quality players that play in top leagues, it becomes more noticeable who has "performing" players and who actually has top players.

 

That is too simplistic. For one it assumes that clubs need or want a player of his style, it assumes that clubs haven’t enquired and been turned off his pricetag, and thirdly assumes he wants to leave Torino (Italians rarely move abroad and he is their captain). How many ‘big clubs’ need a high energy, technically limited striker? Most of them would prefer a player with a little more dynamism, and most other teams in Europe would just be a step sideways. And none of that suggests he is a poor player but rather an unwanted player. Mario Balotelli for instance doesn’t even have a club despite his talent! Being unwanted is not a rating for calibre; yes they do usually go hand 8n hand but not always

[Guest]

Just now, Spike said:

That is too simplistic. For one it assumes that clubs need or want a player of his style, it assumes that clubs haven’t enquired and been turned off his pricetag, and thirdly assumes he wants to leave Torino (Italians rarely move abroad and he is their captain). How many ‘big clubs’ need a high energy, technically limited striker? Most of them would prefer a player with a little more dynamism, and most other teams in Europe would just be a step sideways. And none of that suggests he is a poor player but rather an unwanted player. Mario Balotelli for instance doesn’t even have a club despite his talent! Being unwanted is not a rating for calibre; yes they do usually go hand 8n hand but not always

You're absolutely right there, but keep in mind I said that I think it's telling he's not wanted, not that it is an assured fact that speaks for his quality. 

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Grizzly21 said:

@Spike goals are needed to win games and are the most important stat, but I think its telling that he's not been snapped up by other clubs. Vardy is a good comparison but I honestly think he is better than Belotti. By evolve I meant step up to a bigger club. Its the same with the Peruvian players, they don't ever evolve and that's because they aren't top players for the most part.

In fact I think most secondary South American nations are good examples of this. Peru has talent but not the "class". We are able to outperform teams like Chile, Uruguay Croatia, etc but when it comes to teams like France or Brasil, if we win its usually made very hard work of it. That's because their team has class, not players who will hit form and do well for a bit. Most of the other teams I've mentioned have at most 3 top players but compared to Brazil, France or Germany who have a full team of quality players that play in top leagues, it becomes more noticeable who has "performing" players and who actually has top players.

 

You beat Uruguay in the Copa America but they are generally better than you.  No way are you better than Croatia.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

You beat Uruguay in the Copa America but they are generally better than you.  No way are you better than Croatia.

That's not my point though, my point was we are able to outperform them because they don't have that class that Brazil or France do. We outperformed Uruguay in the last qualifiers and outperformed Croatia (albeit in a friendly) before the World Cup. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Form is temporary.

Class is also temporary.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Grizzly21 said:

That's not my point though, my point was we are able to outperform them because they don't have that class that Brazil or France do. We outperformed Uruguay in the last qualifiers and outperformed Croatia (albeit in a friendly) before the World Cup. 

Croatia got to the world cup final Brian. You beat them in a friendly so what. 

 

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Croatia got to the world cup final Brian. You beat them in a friendly so what. 

 

But we outperformed them. That is the point. I never once said we are a "better team"

[Dan+]

Pukki's clearly got to do it for more than he has done but for some context Pukki has scored as many Premier League goals for Norwich as Iheanacho has for Leicester. He's had a brilliant start and I actually think he will get 15+ this season. I don't think he's a top player by any stretch but more one of those who is a perfect fit for the team he is in and will continue taking the chances they create for him. I'll be very disappointed if he gets under 10.

Trossard got flagged up a while ago by @...Dan on the Football Index thread. This one's paid out for sure. Both of his finishes at the weekend were quality.

You can sometimes just have a really good fit for a team that brings out numbers in them that you wouldn't get in other teams. Pukki I think will be a good example of just this.

[True Blue]

Teemu Pukki don't think he is a one season wonder, a very good Championship player and i also think he will be okay in the Premier League. I don't think he is class either, but a good player at best.

[Toinho]

On 19/08/2019 at 04:45, Spike said:

Besides, it is weird when say a player scores 30 goals, and people say 'he isn't that good, just on great form', well if he isn't that good, how did he score 30 times? Just because it cannot be replicated in a later or earlier season doesn't mean for that one season they were 'that good'. Michu was that good for a single season, he was amazing, players aren't stuck at a static level of class throughout their careers. 

 

Basically what I was going to add.

 

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Grizzly21 said:

But we outperformed them. That is the point. I never once said we are a "better team"

Strange statement mate if I'm honest but never mind not worth getting upset over it. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Strange statement mate if I'm honest but never mind not worth getting upset over it. 

It really isn't. Its relevant to this thread. We are able to outperform Croatia, Chile, Uruguay and the likes but not Brazil, France or Germany because of the class they have. The former teams have at most 3 world class players, where as the rest are good. The latter's players range from great to world class, thus making it harder to outperform them.