American Politics Discussion

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Dr. Gonzo @Eco I know you live in America and i know @Steve Bruce Almighty you have lived in Canada and probably have some knowledge of america. 

It's quite hard as a British central leftist to really understand America's right. Its quite easy to just stereotype then as racist nutters who are obsessed with guns. But it is important to understand them. Otherwise we are just as bad as the right wingers who thing all leftists want to take away all their freedom and install communism. 

Its seems to me as if we have very different moral priorities. It seems to me some of them are so obsessed with individual freedom and so worried about communism and socialism that they put it above all other matters. It seems to me that they dont want and market restrictions for example because they see it as violating their freedom and in some cases may lead to communism. This means that even if it causes mass poverty or damages the environment that is acceptable for the price of freedom.

Whereas a leftist would accept these measures if it helped other people.  Like I said it also seems that a lot of it is fear. Some of them are so obsessed with communism they are worried it will cause it. 

Clearly this isn't a detailed description but is this kind of a basic version of it for some people. 

I think @Eco (because he's actually in probably what was the most important state that won the election for Biden and gave the senate to Democrats, in a very very close state vote) and @Spike (in Chicago, I think... but he's also lived in the South as well) would probably give you a better and more well rounded view of what the right wing is like in America and how to better understand them.

Because, quite frankly, your guess as to why they think the way they do is as good as mine. I know a few Republicans here that admitted they voted for Trump (the first time around), subsequently 2 of them have re-registered as Democrats and they all seem to have dropped their support of Trump over the last few years. But these aren't representative of other people living in San Diego that live further north or further east - where people are generally more conservative.

For them, their political interests are mostly motivated by: paying as little in taxes as possible and having elected officials that are corporate friendly. And one of them isn't even scared by things like a national healthcare system, like many on the right in the US are terrified of because "socialism" - because he thinks that will be better for businesses in America (as many employers right now pay for their employees to get healthcare coverage).

Also, because of where we're located and how many Mexicans there are... I do think many republicans here did feel uncomfortable with Trump's rhetoric towards Mexicans. And I think it's why so many of these people were so quick to drop Trump.

I'd probably call these "moderate republicans" - even though they'd fall pretty squarely as right wing in the UK or EU. I think people like that still have repugnant political views, tbh, but I think my political disagreement with them is very different to how I'd feel about the more extremist Trump supporters. Because the people I know who did support Trump had been condemning Trump long before what happened yesterday, whereas now we're seeing more Republicans come out after an act of pro-Trump terrorism.

San Diego's rural areas are far more conservative - and I think that's true all across America. But I don't really know how/why they think the way they do. They've been fed a lot of bullshit by the political media they consume (Fox, OANN) and they do seem very fear driven (fear of immigrants, fear of different religions, fear of anything different from what they're used to really).

Imo, I think a lot of the more extremist positions on Brexit had a lot of the same elements of using fear to drive people to vote for it - so if you know anyone that voted for Brexit because they were afraid of immigrants from Poland taking their jobs or afraid of Muslim migrants not wanting to be decapitated by ISIS for being Shia... they can probably give you a bit of insight into how they think. Right-wing media in the US and UK is pretty fucking similar, tbh... just the UK is slightly less overt.

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, Stan said:

A post from Parler...

 

I hope this has been reported to the FBI already, because Parler's actually an interesting social media site. Because aside from being a haven for right-wing extremists, it's interesting in that the users have to submit ID to Parler to prove it is them before they make an account.

So all the FBI has to do to find this guy's location and arrest him is subpoena Parler...

[Spike]

20 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think @Eco (because he's actually in probably what was the most important state that won the election for Biden and gave the senate to Democrats, in a very very close state vote) and @Spike (in Chicago, I think... but he's also lived in the South as well) would probably give you a better and more well rounded view of what the right wing is like in America and how to better understand them.

Because, quite frankly, your guess as to why they think the way they do is as good as mine. I know a few Republicans here that admitted they voted for Trump (the first time around), subsequently 2 of them have re-registered as Democrats and they all seem to have dropped their support of Trump over the last few years. But these aren't representative of other people living in San Diego that live further north or further east - where people are generally more conservative.

For them, their political interests are mostly motivated by: paying as little in taxes as possible and having elected officials that are corporate friendly. And one of them isn't even scared by things like a national healthcare system, like many on the right in the US are terrified of because "socialism" - because he thinks that will be better for businesses in America (as many employers right now pay for their employees to get healthcare coverage).

Also, because of where we're located and how many Mexicans there are... I do think many republicans here did feel uncomfortable with Trump's rhetoric towards Mexicans. And I think it's why so many of these people were so quick to drop Trump.

I'd probably call these "moderate republicans" - even though they'd fall pretty squarely as right wing in the UK or EU. I think people like that still have repugnant political views, tbh, but I think my political disagreement with them is very different to how I'd feel about the more extremist Trump supporters. Because the people I know who did support Trump had been condemning Trump long before what happened yesterday, whereas now we're seeing more Republicans come out after an act of pro-Trump terrorism.

San Diego's rural areas are far more conservative - and I think that's true all across America. But I don't really know how/why they think the way they do. They've been fed a lot of bullshit by the political media they consume (Fox, OANN) and they do seem very fear driven (fear of immigrants, fear of different religions, fear of anything different from what they're used to really).

Imo, I think a lot of the more extremist positions on Brexit had a lot of the same elements of using fear to drive people to vote for it - so if you know anyone that voted for Brexit because they were afraid of immigrants from Poland taking their jobs or afraid of Muslim migrants not wanting to be decapitated by ISIS for being Shia... they can probably give you a bit of insight into how they think. Right-wing media in the US and UK is pretty fucking similar, tbh... just the UK is slightly less overt.

In America you have to understand their history to understand their culture. 1776 and the constitution is deeply embedded into the psyche of Americans, manifests in many different ways. America took it upon itself to be independent and free of their current government, which you can see manifested today as a culture that expects no help from the government in terms of personal success, it is deeply stigmatised to accept support from the government, ,and people are really expected to 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps'. It creates a huge desire for social mobility, in Australia or the UK, being working class can be something to be proud of, working with one's hands and earning a honest life, not so much in America, one is expected to always want more and to show it off with flashy possessions. Rather than band together and create an environment that benefits the most people, Americans have setted on 'I've got mine, you get yours'  based on the merit of individual success. A person is defined by their earning power, not their virtue or actions, and I fear this is becoming deeply prevalent in other countries due to American mass media exportation.

There is also a bizarre double think that many fall prey, the obsess over the ideal of 'don't tread on me' for fear of a tyrannical government but many will bootlick the administration that panders to their desires the most. The both distrust the government, but idealise a government institution like the military despite the fact that'd be the hammer of the tyrannical government they fear. I really feel this is a nation of double standards, 'I love Jesus but hate Islam', 'Help the poor, but don't tax me', 'You can't tell me what to do, but arrest that person for breaking the law', 'It doesn't apply to me, but it applies to you'.

Americans have great capacity for love and compassion but also an inherent greed and desire for more, money, clothes, food, sugar, coffee, drugs, entertainment, music, medicine, it drives them forward to innovate but in a very 'monoculture' way (how can I milk the cow for all it's worth?, do I abuse the soil to maximise my crop yield?). The short term over the long term, ,always looking for the quick buck. They cannot see the forest for the trees for what is good for America, only themselves.

[RandoEFC+]

Anyone else who was initially just happy to have anyone but Trump been super impressed by the way Biden has conducted himself since election day? I feel like every significant speech he's made has just hit the spot. No playground stuff, minimal mention of Trump at all where possible, and a constant message of putting the country and the democracy above the Presidenct and the powerful. A lot of people are unhappy that he's a centrist and too old and not that charismatic (I disagree on the last point) but so far he looks the best possible tonic to what has come before.

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Anyone else who was initially just happy to have anyone but Trump been super impressed by the way Biden has conducted himself since election day? I feel like every significant speech he's made has just hit the spot. No playground stuff, minimal mention of Trump at all where possible, and a constant message of putting the country and the democracy above the Presidenct and the powerful. A lot of people are unhappy that he's a centrist and too old and not that charismatic (I disagree on the last point) but so far he looks the best possible tonic to what has come before.

He seems like a good guy. What is this thing about him being a pedophial or something? I haven't looked into it I'm sure it mostly nonsense but where has it come from?

[Cicero]

7 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

He seems like a good guy. What is this thing about him being a pedophial or something? I haven't looked into it I'm sure it mostly nonsense but where has it come from?

Because that's what it is. Nonsense. He's a touchy feely bloke. Was also investigated for rape allegations and unsurprisingly nothing came of it. The best of it is seeing Kamala Harris as his VP when several months ago she called him a rapist. 

American politics. Hypocrisy at its finest. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Cicero

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Because that's what it is. Nonsense. He's a touchy feely bloke. Was also investigated for rape allegations and unsurprisingly nothing came of it. The best of it is seeing Kamala Harris as his VP when several months ago she called him a rapist. 

American politics. Hypocrisy at its finest. 

Actually I remember hearing that he was a bit touchy feely. But that was in a time when attitudes were a bit different. Doesn't make it right but is was the way it was back then. He has said sorry on numerous occasions. This is ironic considering trump has loads of sexually harassment claims made against him.

[Spike]

Everyone is a rapist/paedophile/sex pest according to the news. Is that really the hill to die on?

[Spike]

1 hour ago, Cicero said:

Because that's what it is. Nonsense. He's a touchy feely bloke. Was also investigated for rape allegations and unsurprisingly nothing came of it. The best of it is seeing Kamala Harris as his VP when several months ago she called him a rapist. 

American politics. Hypocrisy at its finest. 

The accusation was 'racist' and that she believed some of the sexual harrasmen accusers of Biden. Apparently the former never happened, at least I cannot find a single source.

[Cicero]

29 minutes ago, Spike said:

The accusation was 'racist' and that she believed some of the sexual harrasmen accusers of Biden. Apparently the former never happened, at least I cannot find a single source.

Oh that’s right. She defended Biden against those sexual assault claims actually. For Biden, Kamala was innocent until proven guilty. For Kavannaugh, Kamala was guilty until proven innocent. 
 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Cicero

[Spike]

1 minute ago, Cicero said:

Oh that’s right. She defended those sexual assault claims actually. For Biden, Kamala was innocent until proven guilty. For Kavannaugh, Kamala was guilty until proven innocent. 
 

 

The racist thing is weird to me, didn't he do a bunch of civil rights work in the 70s and 80s? Does it stem from his part in the war on drugs and the discrepancy between the incarceration lengths of powder cocaine and crack cocaine?

[Viva la FCB+]

5 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

They deleted my posts because that subreddit is censored like Stalinist Russia

But if you ever want to see what it’s like being surrounded by racist morons that’ll never have sex, check out r/Conservative 

Man, I occasionally browse that subreddit to remind myself how the other side thinks and holy fuck my life do I leave in a hurry. The levels of disillusion these people jump through to rationalize some of this shit is just mind boggling.  

[Spike]

6 minutes ago, Viva la FCB said:

Man, I occasionally browse that subreddit to remind myself how the other side thinks and holy fuck my life do I leave in a hurry. The levels of disillusion these people jump through to rationalize some of this shit is just mind boggling.  

@Dr. Gonzo it's because you guys are on reddit. It's easily the worst website on the planet and each sub will eat you alive if you deviate from the groupthink

you shouldn't think of it as 'otherside' because identity politics is snake oil sold to you, ,left v. right are ultimately meaningless terms due to the deviance in ideals within their own half of the divide. communism is left, but facism is right but both can be totalitarian??! then there are policies that can be defined as both left and right, but also in opposition to both (open borders)

Edited January 7, 2021 by Spike

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

@Dr. Gonzo it's because you guys are on reddit. It's easily the worst website on the planet and each sub will eat you alive if you deviate from the groupthink

you shouldn't think of it as 'otherside' because identity politics is snake oil sold to you, ,left v. right are ultimately meaningless terms due to the deviance in ideals within their own half of the divide. communism is left, but facism is right but both can be totalitarian??! then there are policies that can be defined as both left and right, but also in opposition to both (open borders)

I think twitter’s the worst website on the planet and Reddit’s actually great for shit that isn’t serious - like the numerous guitar subreddits are all pretty ace, learned a lot about maintaining my guitars from that site tbh.

Isn’t identity politics more shite like “vote this way because you’re gay/straight/white/black/a woman”? Because the whole idea of left & right in politics existed way before the invention of the internet.

100% agree with you that in the extremes, the left and right can end up looking very similar - to where it really doesn’t matter if someone’s a communist or a fascist, it’s just oppressive authoritarianism.

But I do think the normalisation of anti-democratic views taking grip of the policies of a party in a democracy is a concern. And it’s not just Reddit - we see it even in the preferred mainstream media of the right. And we’re seeing US politicians back anti-democratic and authoritarian views. So I’m not sure it’s just because of the echo chamber - if they were a fringe minority, yesterday wouldn’t have panned out the way it did.

[Mpache]

More lies.

Also, just me who think his way of talking here sounds like the Pope? 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Mpache

[Spike]

38 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think twitter’s the worst website on the planet and Reddit’s actually great for shit that isn’t serious - like the numerous guitar subreddits are all pretty ace, learned a lot about maintaining my guitars from that site tbh.

Isn’t identity politics more shite like “vote this way because you’re gay/straight/white/black/a woman”? Because the whole idea of left & right in politics existed way before the invention of the internet.

100% agree with you that in the extremes, the left and right can end up looking very similar - to where it really doesn’t matter if someone’s a communist or a fascist, it’s just oppressive authoritarianism.

But I do think the normalisation of anti-democratic views taking grip of the policies of a party in a democracy is a concern. And it’s not just Reddit - we see it even in the preferred mainstream media of the right. And we’re seeing US politicians back anti-democratic and authoritarian views. So I’m not sure it’s just because of the echo chamber - if they were a fringe minority, yesterday wouldn’t have panned out the way it did.

Nearly right with identity politics but it is any sort of identity, not just gay/straight/white/black/a woman. Social class, locality, occupation, religion, etc. It's any sort of pandering that will associate X political ideal with Y identity. So identity politics can be 'enlightened smart people vote left, bigots vote right'. Or for you own country, 'Gammons vote Tory'. I can almost say it's a way of justifying of your own preference while putting down other's.

Identity politics isn't a new term

[Harry]

 

 

 

[Harry]

Sounds like Trump will be impeached by the house a second time. With the idea being that the senate can convene and remove him depending on behaviour.

[Azeem]

10 hours ago, Spike said:

In America you have to understand their history to understand their culture. 1776 and the constitution is deeply embedded into the psyche of Americans, manifests in many different ways. America took it upon itself to be independent and free of their current government, which you can see manifested today as a culture that expects no help from the government in terms of personal success, it is deeply stigmatised to accept support from the government, ,and people are really expected to 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps'. It creates a huge desire for social mobility, in Australia or the UK, being working class can be something to be proud of, working with one's hands and earning a honest life, not so much in America, one is expected to always want more and to show it off with flashy possessions. Rather than band together and create an environment that benefits the most people, Americans have setted on 'I've got mine, you get yours'  based on the merit of individual success. A person is defined by their earning power, not their virtue or actions, and I fear this is becoming deeply prevalent in other countries due to American mass media exportation.

There is also a bizarre double think that many fall prey, the obsess over the ideal of 'don't tread on me' for fear of a tyrannical government but many will bootlick the administration that panders to their desires the most. The both distrust the government, but idealise a government institution like the military despite the fact that'd be the hammer of the tyrannical government they fear. I really feel this is a nation of double standards, 'I love Jesus but hate Islam', 'Help the poor, but don't tax me', 'You can't tell me what to do, but arrest that person for breaking the law', 'It doesn't apply to me, but it applies to you'.

Americans have great capacity for love and compassion but also an inherent greed and desire for more, money, clothes, food, sugar, coffee, drugs, entertainment, music, medicine, it drives them forward to innovate but in a very 'monoculture' way (how can I milk the cow for all it's worth?, do I abuse the soil to maximise my crop yield?). The short term over the long term, ,always looking for the quick buck. They cannot see the forest for the trees for what is good for America, only themselves.

Lol feels like your talking about some family of mine that moved to the US  their flashy-ness can be so annoying

Edited January 8, 2021 by McAzeem

[Guest]

@Dr. Gonzo if you ever wonder how someone like trump got in power in the first place. Remember you are talking about a country where you can have as many guns as you like but kinder surprises are banned for being to dangerous 

[Viva la FCB+]

That might be the first time hes sounded somewhat presidential. Full of bullshit and theres no chance he believes any of it or wrote any of it for that matter but hes in damage control mode. I hope they do move forward and impeach him in short order so the fuck can never run again. I suppose jail works in that regard too. 

[Mpache]

57 minutes ago, Viva la FCB said:

That might be the first time hes sounded somewhat presidential. Full of bullshit and theres no chance he believes any of it or wrote any of it for that matter but hes in damage control mode. I hope they do move forward and impeach him in short order so the fuck can never run again. I suppose jail works in that regard too. 

100%. He was forced to read lines, you could hear it in his way of speaking. Sounds like a priest.

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Viva la FCB said:

That might be the first time hes sounded somewhat presidential. Full of bullshit and theres no chance he believes any of it or wrote any of it for that matter but hes in damage control mode. I hope they do move forward and impeach him in short order so the fuck can never run again. I suppose jail works in that regard too. 

Sources in the White House have said he only condemned the rioters because he was told he might face legal issues if he didn't disassociate from what happened given his speech prior to the siege of the house of US government.

[Spike]

13 hours ago, McAzeem said:

Lol feels like your talking about some family of mine that moved to the US  their flashy-ness can be so annoying

Frugality can be good for the soul, spoiling yourself only sometimes makes one appreciate all they have. Such a shame that American is predatory on countries like yours, imagine all the gifted doctors and other learned people you've lost due to the brain drain.

4 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Dr. Gonzo if you ever wonder how someone like trump got in power in the first place. Remember you are talking about a country where you can have as many guns as you like but kinder surprises are banned for being to dangerous 

They aren't banned any more,, the chocolate doesn't cover the whole egg, there is a very thin line of separation.

[Stan]