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Transgender People in Sport


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where do people stand on this. imo trans people should have the same rights as anyone but i dont think its fair that a trans male should get to compete in womens sports. i think its unfair to take away the rights of women to give them to trans people. what do you think. 

 

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1 minute ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

As far as I know trans gender aren't allowed to compete with other women in sports, Therefor not sure what that thread is about since I can't hear, what this woman is talking for some reason unknown to me?

well in some places they can. do you think they should get to compete in womens sport. 

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39 minutes ago, UNIQUE said:

well in some places they can. do you think they should get to compete in womens sport. 

Depends in sports where athleticism play a subordinate role like chess, billiard, snooker, curling etc why not? In others it's unfair for the reason nudge already mentioned.

Edited by Rucksackfranzose
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1 minute ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Depends in sports where athleticism play a subordinate role like chess, billiard, snooker, curling etc why not? In others it's unfair for the reason nudge already mentioned.

so why not just agree in the first place. 

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If people want to be trans or whatever they want to call themselves, fine - I don't really give a shit.

I still don't really understand why/how the trans-ness got to be the way it is... and I don't necessarily agree with a lot of the arguments about why we should treat their gender identities as... normal (for lack of a better word). But I recognise that my thoughts on this can be considered pretty offensive and I don't want to offend anyone. I respect that they have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies, as long as they aren't detrimentally impacting anyone else. So I suppose I've become a bit more tolerant.

But as far as having a biological advantage in sport... that's detrimentally impacting the other competitors and it shouldn't be allowed imo.

Shit like football or athletics, trans women should compete with men... not with biological women.

The non-athletic sports, like darts and shit like that, they can probably compete. Maybe even motorsports too, I know there's a lot of G force issues and it strains your neck... but I think women can fly planes and shit too, so they can probably handle shit like that as well.

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4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If people want to be trans or whatever they want to call themselves, fine - I don't really give a shit.

I still don't really understand why/how the trans-ness got to be the way it is... and I don't necessarily agree with a lot of the arguments about why we should treat their gender identities as... normal (for lack of a better word). But I recognise that my thoughts on this can be considered pretty offensive and I don't want to offend anyone. I respect that they have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies, as long as they aren't detrimentally impacting anyone else. So I suppose I've become a bit more tolerant.

But as far as having a biological advantage in sport... that's detrimentally impacting the other competitors and it shouldn't be allowed imo.

Shit like football or athletics, trans women should compete with men... not with biological women.

The non-athletic sports, like darts and shit like that, they can probably compete. Maybe even motorsports too, I know there's a lot of G force issues and it strains your neck... but I think women can fly planes and shit too, so they can probably handle shit like that sa well.

thats a sensible way to look at it but some people in the world would call you transphobic. i think the way the world works now is you cant give some people rights without taking them away from other people. 

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7 minutes ago, UNIQUE said:

no what you did was agree with my first post and didnt want say you agree with me. 

I had an annotation, just for you I quoted myself and balded the part in which I didn't agree.

28 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Depends in sports where athleticism play a subordinate role like chess, billiard, snooker, curling etc why not? In others it's unfair for the reason nudge already mentioned.

 

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5 minutes ago, UNIQUE said:

thats a sensible way to look at it but some people in the world would call you transphobic. i think the way the world works now is you cant give some people rights without taking them away from other people. 

I might be transphobic... maybe doctors aren't doing enough to educate people about the concept of body dysmorphia... Either way, I respect trans people's right to exist and live a life that makes them happy, regardless of whether or not I understand where they're coming from. And I certainly don't want to offend anyone just because they live differently to me or have a different concept of what their gender is.

It might just be one of those things I'll never understand... but I don't want to make people feel like shit just because they think different/live different to me. At the core of it is really their "identity" and I can imagine having your identity attacked by bigots all the time can mess with your head a lot.

But still, I think if society is going to be accepting of trans people - we do need to consider things like competition in sport and recognising biological differences we've been born with.

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Yes, trans people should compete in the category they were biologically born in, or better yet, in their own section with their own rules and binding laws.

I've seen people say "Testosterone doesn't matter." Yes, it does enormously. 
"But their hormones are different now" If you had a male puberty you're stronger, with greater bone structure and bone density than a natural woman can hope to ever achieve, even the genetic freaks. 

Remember when the world number 200 and something crushed Serena Williams like a bug, while smoking between sets? That's TENNIS. A skill based non contact sport. Imagine other sports and areas. 

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1 hour ago, Cicero said:

There’s that notorious rumor a U17 MLS team beat the woman’s national team a few years ago...

I can never tell what anyone hoped to achieve with that rumor and I cant even remember if it came out when the USWNT was asking to get paid equally but I believe it was before it.

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To be perfectly honest if you were transgender female who was previously male you shouldn't want to compete with the other females because you'd know you'd have a physical advantage that would make it an unlevel playing field. 

 

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I read an article a while back that showed that a lot of trans athletes (male to female) in athletics actually suffer in their performances compared to women because of the reduction of testosterone in their bodies, I’ll try and find it as it was quite interesting and their might be a rebuttal/discussion around it now.

I think the issue with this is that it’s an extremely nuanced debate that is either dumbed down to “trans women are women” or some sort of Joe Rogan style “they would crush women” depending on what side of the argument you’re on.

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  • 1 month later...

What's everyone's view of the transgender women that's been cleared to compete at the Olympics? 

Personally feel its wrong, if I was a female that had trained my whole life for this I'd withdraw in protest. 

Awful subject but can't agree with it. 

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1 hour ago, Danny said:

Not seen the science behind it, anyone got any links?

Science behind what? IOC's decision to allow transgender women to compete? You won't see any science behind it, because it doesn't exist. Their "guidelines" have no list of references of published research, no credible scientific backing. On the contrary, it pretty much ignores all the research which clearly indicates that their "guidelines" are a load of BS.

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10 hours ago, nudge said:

Science behind what? IOC's decision to allow transgender women to compete? You won't see any science behind it, because it doesn't exist. Their "guidelines" have no list of references of published research, no credible scientific backing. On the contrary, it pretty much ignores all the research which clearly indicates that their "guidelines" are a load of BS.

Assuming there was some behind the decision to allow a trans woman to compete in this type of competition. But yeah, science against it as well.

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On 12/05/2021 at 00:24, nudge said:

Regardless what someone identifies as, there's the biological reality of male or female sex and all the physical properties that come with it. 

 

13 hours ago, Danny said:

Not seen the science behind it, anyone got any links?

Transgender women’s performances generally decline as their testosterone does. But not every male advantage dissipates when testosterone drops. Some advantages, such as their bigger bone structure, greater lung capacity, and larger heart size remain, says Alison Heather, a physiologist at the University of Otago in New Zealand. Testosterone also promotes muscle memory—an ability to regain muscle mass after a period of detraining—by increasing the number of nuclei in muscles, and these added nuclei don’t go away. So transgender women have a heightened ability to build strength even after they transition, Heather says.

 

On 12/05/2021 at 00:56, Rucksackfranzose said:

Depends in sports where athleticism play a subordinate role like chess, billiard, snooker, curling etc why not?

Agree with this, I would have no problem with people competing in sports where their physical size or strength would not be a factor in the outcome.. you could probably include things like Diving as well for example where it's about more about technique.. 

On 12/05/2021 at 01:32, Dr. Gonzo said:

It might just be one of those things I'll never understand... but I don't want to make people feel like shit just because they think different/live different to me.

But equally why should you be labelled as Transphobic or a hater because you have a different viewpoint?? I feel the same way as you, I don't care what people want to do with their lives that's their choices and their business but like religion don't try and force feed me your viewpoint as being the only one that matters because just as they have one I have one too and it can't just be dismissed because it's not in line with their own... 

On 12/05/2021 at 02:32, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Yes, trans people should compete in the category they were biologically born in, or better yet, in their own section with their own rules and binding laws.

This I totally agree with and was having this very discussion with someone at work about the other week... 

Personally I don't agree with it, there are clearly advantages to be had with height, weight and strength... I don't know how anyone could get satisfaction from a sport that they win by having an advantage anyway.. I can't imagine how it must feel being a female athlete who has worked and trained hard over a number of years to be the best they can be only for a Transgender athlete to suddenly pop up and undermine all that.. There are Male and Female sports for a reason but now those lines are getting blurred.. 

Edited by Bluewolf
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This topic will open a can of worms in terms of what is considered an advantage to an athlete, because there are plenty of advantages that we accept within sport. Michael Phelps is literally built like a fish, physically there is no one that could compete with him because of the advantage he gained from his body shape. There is no real difference between the advantage gained from body shape and the advantage gained from going through puberty as a male, or the advantage of a non-trans woman having higher testosterone levels than other women. Prior to this what we use to create a definitive difference in athletes has been fairly arbitrary in that it's simply male and female, and even the scientific components that we use to create the difference between the sexes can be argued. I.e. are you still a woman if you can't give birth, don't have breasts etc.

Where we are at the moment is a battleground where trans people don't want to be excluded from competing within the race that their gender puts them in and non trans people not wanting to lose in a race where they haven't had the same advantage of growing up with male testosterone, and then also athletes such as Caster Semenya who were born female and simply have a higher testosterone count that most women. And even then it's debatable how much of an advantage that gives her as there is no proof that she is benefiting from the more potent male testosterone and has the correct receptors to use it.

That's what I gathered from reading a research paper and listening to a Sky Sports podcast on my lunch break today anyway :ph34r:

 

From my very limited experience and research in this field, I feel like we will eventually move to a point where differences in athletes is less based on gender alone and becomes more based on grouping of testosterone levels, female and male.

On a side note, what was interesting was research done on I believe the US Airforce where they kept records on trans recruits and essentially trans women (male to female) generally lose their competitive edge over females after 1 year of taking blockers when it comes to strength, i.e. push ups. But it took over two years for trans women to lose their competitive edge when it came to running, which goes against the evidence supplied by the Olympic Committee that they lose their muscle (I think they measured this through MRI scans) advantage after just one year.

What is certain is that if you accept in law that trans women are women then you will have to eventually alter how you differentiate the athletes through a metric that easier to measure i.e. testosterone levels (taking into account male testosterone vs female) or...you accept the competitive advantage trans women have had is no different to the advantage that someone physically has that isn't testosterone based, i.e. a Michael Phelps.

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18 hours ago, McAzeem said:

Having a separate category for them makes the most sense. 

Only issue with that is there isn't enough competitors to justify having a separate category at this time. 

As others have said, each to their own, how someone chooses to live their life is their own choice but I'm a firm believer that if you make certain life choices you have to accept that if your interested in physical sports you can't compete in female competition as you have an unfair advantage. 

You don't get more physical than weight lifting.

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