Donald Trump

[IgnisExcubitor]

11 minutes ago, Cicero said:

I wouldn’t post stuff like this on the internet 

There is an Indian guy called Vikram Buddhi was studying in USA and who was arrested and sentenced to 4 years in prison for making a similar kind of post on Yahoo. He criticised Bush, Cheney and wished that they would be bombed. Secret service took him in  before he was imprisoned. 

Pakistan is basically US territory, so Azeem needs to keep an eye on the skies now. 

[Eco]

This has seriously become a thread where it seems the popular thing to do is bash and pick apart all of the negative and bad things about the U.S., but really, this thread is about Trump, who is currently having another big ordeal going on at the moment with his racist tweets, yet that's not being mentioned, instead, you have mentioned a terrorist threat and gross generalizations about America as a whole, when I bet most of you haven't even stayed anywhere in the States for any real length of time. 

Seriously this place is full of a bunch of fucking keyboard warriors. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Eco said:

This has seriously become a thread where it seems the popular thing to do is bash and pick apart all of the negative and bad things about the U.S., but really, this thread is about Trump, who is currently having another big ordeal going on at the moment with his racist tweets, yet that's not being mentioned, instead, you have mentioned a terrorist threat and gross generalizations about America as a whole, when I bet most of you haven't even stayed anywhere in the States for any real length of time. 

Seriously this place is full of a bunch of fucking keyboard warriors. 

If it makes you feel any better, Trump being president is less of a pathetic indictment of the US electorate as Brexit and the current UK government are of the UK electorate. More people voted against Trump than for him, he's only president because of the weird electoral college mechanic (which, in all honesty, I think is a pretty undemocratic method for running a democracy). Whereas the MPs we have in the UK that formed a coalition to create the government we have were voted for by the UK electorate, with no anti-democratic mechanism built into it. Same with Brexit.

Also just for the record, I mentioned the racist tweets before these generalistations kicked in. But yeah, I do think that a lot of people simply don't understand that trying to tie in "US culture" into one overarching umbrella that captures the culture of an entire nation is a bit ridiculous. Take California, for instance. The coastal culture is miles different from the desert culture, the mountain culture, the valley culture. Likewise within that coastal culture, there's pretty significant differences between say Northern California and Southern California. Meanwhile the culture of the central valley is fuck all like either of those places. Or looking a Texas, Austin is miles apart culturally to the Dallas-Ft. Worth area (and really Austin is miles apart culturally from their entire state, imo).

And @SirBalon, while I'm in California (and on the coast) and I think it's culturally the easiest place in the US for me to have assimilated to... I do think that Salvador Dali's quote is pretty outdated. Like it doesn't really account for something pretty obvious to me - places like Chicago that are more culturally akin to New York City, Los Angeles, and San Francisco, than any of the small Midwest towns that surround them. Or where @Eco is from, Atlanta - which is culturally different to large swathes of the state surrounding it. It is a ridiculously large country with a ridiculous amount of diversity of all sorts, including (and I'd say especially) cultural diversity.

If generalisations about US culture are going to be made, they should be qualified with things like: "big city American culture," "rural American culture," "small town America" and shit like that. And even that might not be enough to make these generalisations really accurate either because of the amount of cultural diversity. You'd have to compartmentalise further and further qualify things to make it really accurate. So sweeping generalisations about a broad group of people... as fucking usual... at best not very thought out, and at worst just fucking stupid.

I think the political culture is easy for outsiders to make sweeping generalised statements about - particularly when anti-US sentiment is going to be higher than normal because of a president like Trump. When Bush was a president and I was younger, I used to think "wow Americans are truly fucking stupid for giving us this man" and then again for reelecting the dumb fucker after he started a war for no good reason. It's easy for us to look at Europe and see your two political parties and think "well, they've got a right wing party... and they've got a center party" - at least up until recently, where truly left wing voices have become more prominent with the democrats since Bernie's rise to prominence after decades in the shadows. And even he's not really a democrat... so that kind of highlights that point about how right wing America is to the UK and Europe.

[SirBalon]

@Dr. Gonzo In fairness to Dali, he was selecting extremes that he encountered and to make his point he used polarising examples. He did later write a poem dedicated to the greatness of North America where he mentions the incredible things he encountered.

Sometimes to make a point you must do what those that try to separate us do and that is to show what you should be ashamed of and focus on that. It’s when you receive criticisms from outside that you live and hope that the shame pushes those that have been sitting in the background embarrassed  but without taking action.

Bu the way, great post! 

[SirBalon]

2 hours ago, Eco said:

This has seriously become a thread where it seems the popular thing to do is bash and pick apart all of the negative and bad things about the U.S., but really, this thread is about Trump, who is currently having another big ordeal going on at the moment with his racist tweets, yet that's not being mentioned, instead, you have mentioned a terrorist threat and gross generalizations about America as a whole, when I bet most of you haven't even stayed anywhere in the States for any real length of time. 

Seriously this place is full of a bunch of fucking keyboard warriors. 

Mate, you shouldn’t take these things to heart. Much of what I want to say to you is actually contained within the post I’ve just cited Dr Gonzo in.

There are times when people focus on extremes because they have to be addressed and not swept under the carpet.

Generalisations even though hitting off the full mark do also have serious truths within them. It’s ignoring them by just dismissing them as such that we fail to achieve what’s best. 

[Eco]

3 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Mate, you shouldn’t take these things to heart. Much of what I want to say to you is actually contained within the post I’ve just cited Dr Gonzo in.

 There are times when people focus on extremes because they have to be addressed and not swept under the carpet.

 Generalisations even though hitting off the full mark do also have serious truths within them. It’s ignoring them by just dismissing them as such that we fail to achieve what’s best. 

I don't take them serious, but I do find such conversations useless, because no one will change their mind and I have so little time that I don't care to read posters talk about America and Americans are all awful, and that it'd be great entertainment is POTS was killed. 

It's dumb conversations with ignorant people like this that I find useless. Some people aren't bad, but there are a few too many idiots in here that it's almost hard to talk to them. 

[Azeem]

Khan meeting Trump on 22 July here is a perfect intro by Trevor Noah.

 

[SirBalon]

6 hours ago, Eco said:

I don't take them serious, but I do find such conversations useless, because no one will change their mind and I have so little time that I don't care to read posters talk about America and Americans are all awful, and that it'd be great entertainment is POTS was killed. 

It's dumb conversations with ignorant people like this that I find useless. Some people aren't bad, but there are a few too many idiots in here that it's almost hard to talk to them. 

I do get you. We should take into consideration and understand that there are indeed many people in the world that are easily manipulated and groomed into believing blanket things when the commentary be it from social media (especially) and even journalists with an agenda continue to bombard reality with bullshit.

It’s that catch-22 scenario on, how do you address important issues without labelling everyone with the same brush.

[Azeem]

6 hours ago, Eco said:

and that it'd be great entertainment is POTS was killed. 

 

It was tongue in cheek man

[SirBalon]

We are fucked!

 

[Azeem]

Yeah leave losers 

[SirBalon]

This is why one should be careful with generalising, myself included. Although to make sure debate gets out there which subsequently raises the major issues, then unfortunately one must use certain methods so as to get those ashamed of “their own” to take action!

@Eco mate, one of your countrymen publicly displaying his embarrassment and shame at what’s going on.

[Dr. Gonzo]

9 hours ago, Stick With Azeem said:

Yeah leave losers 

Kind of hilarious though if you compare this kind of attitude to how he felt about America before he was President.

It's astounding he still has as high of an approval rating he does, because he really is just like a giant child in the white house.

[The Artful Dodger]

14 hours ago, SirBalon said:

This is why one should be careful with generalising, myself included. Although to make sure debate gets out there which subsequently raises the major issues, then unfortunately one must use certain methods so as to get those ashamed of “their own” to take action!

@Eco mate, one of your countrymen publicly displaying his embarrassment and shame at what’s going on.

Americans are absolutely deluded. America is not 'built' on anything of the sort, it is built on white supremacy and always has been that way. Trump is an embarrassment for liberals because he's exposing the truth for all to see but he is not an outlier.

[Inverted]

The entire charade that Trump isn't absolutely, categorically, and obviously racist, and that the Trump phenomenon isn't overwhelmingly built on racism, is honestly an astounding achievement of propaganda.

By Fox News, obviously, but also by CNN, NBC, the Washington Post , the NY Times, and all the rest of the mainstream American media. Any objective journalistic outlet would comment on this obvious reality, and the basic acknowledgement that Trump administration and his support are racist would be the starting point of any further commentary or analysis. But in a capitalist media, journalism doesn't operate on the basis of objective reality, but on marketability. 

Reporting accurately on Trump would require pissing-off maybe the 30-40% of the entire American population who are maniacs, which isn't economically viable. 

Its funny that we look at places like North Korea or the Soviet Union and see how bad it is not to have real opposition in the media, to have everyone too afraid to state the obvious. 

The beauty of a neoliberal society is that it "naturally" achieves its own censorship and disinformation, whereas in other models you need to have some bureau or something which has to handle it manually. 

 

Edit: it's also funny that liberal figures such as a Chelsea Clinton were actually some of the key figures in getting the ball rolling on the public hate for the likes of Ilhan Omar. Where is she now? 

In authoritarian societies, you often have  "useful idiots" who pose as the opposition, but who act in every way to the benefit of the government. I think the actions of almost the entire American centre fit that role pretty well. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I wouldn’t be surprised if this kind of rhetoric from Trump emboldens someone to make an attempt to take Ilhan Omar’s life. I hope not, but considering how he’s truly emboldened white supremacists. But he’s making shit up about how Omar has praised Al Qaeda and was involved with September 11th. Idiots will believe that and think she’s a terrorist. Never mind the threat that Trump is pals with MBS and without the House of Saud we wouldn’t see a state propping up Wahhabism and groups like Al Qaeda (or that republicans are blocking medical treatment funding for the first responders to the twin towers).

But idiots will believe him and idiots will do stupid things.

If you’ve ever looked at the videos of Nazi Germany seeing those crowds all seig heiling the angry shouting man with a mustache and thought “how did all of these people get on board with this” - I suggest taking a look at the Trump rally last night where they’re chanting “send her back” about Omar (who btw is a US citizen). Looks eerily similar.

Even if Trump loses the next election... I don’t know how America really deals with this. Racial tensions in America have been an issue since... well the country was founded with another race enslaved, so forever. And after World War 2 and the defeat of the Nazis I think Americans generally ignored that this was happening all over the country before they joined the allies and fought on the right side of history:

(that’s NYC)

So what does America do about those who yearn for a racist autocrat to lord over them? Studies indicate that 1/3 of the population (of humans everywhere, not just Americans) react positively to autocratic leaders. We’ve seen a rise in populism and a rejection of traditional post-war western values all along the west, but I think the US on the cusp of fascism presents a massive problem for the US (and for the world).

[IgnisExcubitor]

Both Trump and the so-called 'squad' cry intolerance every time they are criticised. He pulls out the biased-media card and they pull out the sexist, racist card. 

However, he should be more accountable considering the position he holds and the fact that he is clearly a racist. 

But I also think that group of four female politicians are his best asset. His base will never bother to check the facts. For ex: Omar never praised Al Qaeda. She mocked her professor who was speaking with pride about Al Qaeda. But her wording was terrible. The giggling didn't help. And comparing them to army was stupid. 

[Cicero]

That’s the media (both sides) for you and why fact checking websites need to be encouraged 

[Inverted]

2 hours ago, IgnisExcubitor said:

Both Trump and the so-called 'squad' cry intolerance every time they are criticised. He pulls out the biased-media card and they pull out the sexist, racist card. 

However, he should be more accountable considering the position he holds and the fact that he is clearly a racist. 

But I also think that group of four female politicians are his best asset. His base will never bother to check the facts. For ex: Omar never praised Al Qaeda. She mocked her professor who was speaking with pride about Al Qaeda. But her wording was terrible. The giggling didn't help. And comparing them to army was stupid. 

I don't know if it's the "sexist, racist card" when the opposition is quite clearly, and proudly, sexist and racist. Plus, Trump has far more sympathetic media coverage than any of the young politicians in question. 

The job of the opposition is to oppose. I don't see how they can do that without pointing out the obvious moral catastrophe staring them in the face. The fact that they've managed to consistently do that, whilst also advancing a huge raft of practical and detailed policy proposals (which the GOP scarcely engages with) tells me they're ticking all the boxes.

As opposed to for example a Biden whose entire style of "opposition" seems to be sniffing young girls, cuddling up with racist slime, and fudging any questions of concrete policy. 

[6666]

Ilhan Omar very directly calls out a lot of the mess in US politics and US propaganda. Much more than AOC. Her doing it while being a black woman wearing a headscarf probably infuriates the right wing nutcases.

Also, the irony of a man whose slogan is "Make America Great Again" telling people that they're not allowed to think America hasn't always been great. 

[IgnisExcubitor]

@Inverted I have lost the number of times AOC has played the sexist/racist card. I remember this one guy who asked her question on Amazon policy and she called him sexist for simply asking her question. Indirectly implied Pelosi was racist, before climbing down seeing people getting angry on her.

No one is denying they face racist and sexist remarks from Trump and the alt right, and even some conservatives. But they, especially AOC, use those cards when confronted with legitimate questions and even ordinary people. 

AOC has done some fine policy work against lobbies. But otherwise she comes across as problematic, or hypocritical and at times unnecessarily confrontational. Her recent interaction with Thomas Homan was an absolute car crash. Her work in destroying the Amazon deal was daft. When she defended the payrise, stating that it will stop politicians from accepting bribe was shocking. Let's not even speak about those cringe worthy staged photos of her at the border. 

Lastly, no normal citizen of any country is going to vote against erasure of borders or removal of border security. Neither will they support illegal immigration. No normal citizen will want an agency like Homeland security abolished. You must fight to make the process less inhuman-which is absolutely necessary. But her (or their) stands and staged outrages are immature at times and not in tune with average citizens - a majority of whom are not on Twitter to cheer them. Which is why they are Trump's best assets. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

28 minutes ago, IgnisExcubitor said:

@Inverted I have lost the number of times AOC has played the sexist/racist card. I remember this one guy who asked her question on Amazon policy and she called him sexist for simply asking her question. Indirectly implied Pelosi was racist, before climbing down seeing people getting angry on her.

No one is denying they face racist and sexist remarks from Trump and the alt right, and even some conservatives. But they, especially AOC, use those cards when confronted with legitimate questions and even ordinary people. 

AOC has done some fine policy work against lobbies. But otherwise she comes across as problematic, or hypocritical and at times unnecessarily confrontational. Her recent interaction with Thomas Homan was an absolute car crash. Her work in destroying the Amazon deal was daft. When she defended the payrise, stating that it will stop politicians from accepting bribe was shocking. Let's not even speak about those cringe worthy staged photos of her at the border. 

Lastly, no normal citizen of any country is going to vote against erasure of borders or removal of border security. Neither will they support illegal immigration. No normal citizen will want an agency like Homeland security abolished. You must fight to make the process less inhuman-which is absolutely necessary. But her (or their) stands and staged outrages are immature at times and not in tune with average citizens - a majority of whom are not on Twitter to cheer them. Which is why they are Trump's best assets. 

The Department of Homeland Security is a relatively new invention, and it's inception was really controversial. It's a post-September 11th creation and some of the agencies that fall under the department lack serious oversight and seem to have the most lax hiring standards out of all government agencies - granting security clearances to people who otherwise would not get security clearances at other federal jobs.

So I think when people say "Abolish DHS" they're not saying, "Scrap all Homeland Security" - they're calling for a return of the immigration agencies prior to the "War on Terror."

[Dr. Gonzo]

Speaking of bad decisions that no normal citizen would support: https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/07/17/insanely-bad-move-experts-sound-alarm-trumps-nuclear-safety-agency-weighs-rollback

Looks like someone thinks America needs it's own Chernobyl incident.

[Inverted]

26 minutes ago, IgnisExcubitor said:

@Inverted I have lost the number of times AOC has played the sexist/racist card. I remember this one guy who asked her question on Amazon policy and she called him sexist for simply asking her question. Indirectly implied Pelosi was racist, before climbing down seeing people getting angry on her.

No one is denying they face racist and sexist remarks from Trump and the alt right, and even some conservatives. But they, especially AOC, use those cards when confronted with legitimate questions and even ordinary people. 

AOC has done some fine policy work against lobbies. But otherwise she comes across as problematic, or hypocritical and at times unnecessarily confrontational. Her recent interaction with Thomas Homan was an absolute car crash. Her work in destroying the Amazon deal was daft. When she defended the payrise, stating that it will stop politicians from accepting bribe was shocking. Let's not even speak about those cringe worthy staged photos of her at the border. 

Lastly, no normal citizen of any country is going to vote against erasure of borders or removal of border security. Neither will they support illegal immigration. No normal citizen will want an agency like Homeland security abolished. You must fight to make the process less inhuman-which is absolutely necessary. But her (or their) stands and staged outrages are immature at times and not in tune with average citizens - a majority of whom are not on Twitter to cheer them. Which is why they are Trump's best assets. 

Improving wages for Reps makes perfect sense from a lobbying standpoint, I don't get the outrage.The benefit to someone taking corporate money is negligible, whereas it helps people who run clean campaigns immensely. 

And would it have been better for her not to visit the border? Is it only Pence et al who should go, and the opposition shouldn't be trying to draw attention to it and creating awareness of their side of the argument? You have a funny idea of opposition. 

Also, Homeland Security has existed for less than 20 years. The US can absolutely live without it. The fact that you take it for granted that it's some indispensable part of the state shows how desperately it is needed for someone to point out this simple fact. Again, sounds like the kind of thing an opposition figure should be doing. 

For the best part of the last 30 years, the Dems have tried to win by moving closer to the GOP, and every time the GOP has just pulled further away to the right. 

The fact that some people have finally come along who can win elections, build a base, and who finally question this strategy and offer alternatives, has driven everyone insane. In fact, all that has happened is that an actual opposition has finally emerged. 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

44 minutes ago, Inverted said:

For the best part of the last 30 years, the Dems have tried to win by moving closer to the GOP, and every time the GOP has just pulled further away to the right. 

Hands down the most irritating thing about US politics in my lifetime, even more than the religious bible belt fuckers trying to impose biblical law (yet they're shit scared of Sharia law... they'd probably like it tbh) that have so much influence on US politics. Politicians like Biden, Schumer, and Pelosi (and other establishment democrats) hold a lot of responsibility for the state of their opposition today. And while I say "in my lifetime" it's been going on since well before I was born.

Let's not forget Nixon (a republican) proposed a healthcare bill that was incredibly similar to what they now call Obamacare. We can see pretty significantly how far the US parties have moved right since the 1970s. Prior to Eisenhower (who also debated running as a democrat, so he was about as centrist as they get) the mainstream in both parties was very very centrist. Nowadays the mainstream of the democrats remain centrists, but the goalposts have been shifted further to the right. Meanwhile mainstream republicans are pretty far to the right of where they were in the 1950s.

I also encourage everyone to look at the tax rates under Eisenhower, it's hard to believe he was a republican president with tax rates like that. But also America was most prosperous in the 50s... so maybe there's a historical lesson there when you've got a well funded (and functional) government. But I suppose step one for the US would be getting a functional government again.