UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[RandoEFC+]

28 minutes ago, Moon Monkey said:

Is there a book for Remainers taking a Sanctimonious position now we have left?

Firstly, this doesn't make any sense. Secondly, if life is so much better now that we've left, what is there to be sanctimonious about?

28 minutes ago, Moon Monkey said:

Were you crying for the fishing industry while we were in The EU? Or only now, as you can use it as a weapon, since it was used to get a deal?

No I wasn't crying for the fishing industry because I knew next to nothing about it, but I can admit that, unlike several prominent Brexiters, who spent the best part of a decade using fishing as one of their flagship Brexit winners but were nowhere to be seen when, less than a month after the transition period ended, fishermen from across the country drove their trucks to London to protest about all the wasted fish they were unable to sell because it's harder to export them to European buyers now. Now I actually think when things settle down and they've had time to adjust, the fishing industry might hopefully see some benefit from the Brexit deal, but it's not a great start. 

In the meantime, a Brexit voter accusing someone else of using the fishing industry as a weapon might want to look a bit closer at the people who convinced him or her to vote for it in the first place.

28 minutes ago, Moon Monkey said:

Cry me a river

I do buy into the view that people on both sides of the divide here need to stop relitigating the debate and scoring points against each other but you've shown from pretty early on with all of this talk of crying that you're not interested. I'm more than willing to have an intelligent debate on the pros and cons of being inside or outside the EU with people who voted to Leave.

However it remains true that some (far from all) people who voted for Brexit are more interested in the fact that they "won" than they are in being empathetic towards the people who have been hit by it and moving on to point out the reasons why overall/in the long term it will still be better for the UK.

Take Brexit out of it, responding "cry me a river" to people who are worried for their livelihoods and how they're going to put food on the table for their kids is just bang out of order really isn't it.

[Moon Monkey]

29 minutes ago, Stan said:

Is there ever a time where we can talk about any disadvantages of Brexit? Or is it now that it's done, we must never speak of it again unless it's positive news? 

We can and should talk about it, the issue is, the sanctimonious stance taken here, when talking about it

Both Dr Gonzo, whilst taking about himself as a third person and Rando adopted it, whilst sneering at Brexiters,  Dr Gonzo is even delighted with Macron behaving like a Brixiteer?

An Objective post is easier on the eye over a subjective one.

 

[Rucksackfranzose]

23 minutes ago, Moon Monkey said:

We can and should talk about it, the issue is, the sanctimonious stance taken here, when talking about it

Both Dr Gonzo, whilst taking about himself as a third person and Rando adopted it, whilst sneering at Brexiters,  Dr Gonzo is even delighted with Macron behaving like a Brixiteer?

An Objective post is easier on the eye over a subjective one.

 

Do you really think  someone who voted brexit should complain about someone else being delighted Macron behaves like themselves?

Edited January 30, 2021 by Rucksackfranzose

[Moon Monkey]

26 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Firstly, this doesn't make any sense. Secondly, if life is so much better now that we've left, what is there to be sanctimonious about?

Sanctimonious,  making a show of being morally superior 

26 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

No I wasn't crying for the fishing industry because I knew next to nothing about it,

Yet, now you're a champion for it? Now it suits your agenda/opinion you use their plight to put forward a moral argument on "their" behalf?

Well take a bow Sir, 

26 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

but I can admit that, unlike several prominent Brexiters, who spent the best part of a decade using fishing as one of their flagship Brexit winners but were nowhere to be seen when, less than a month after the transition period ended, fishermen from across the country drove their trucks to London to protest about all the wasted fish they were unable to sell because it's harder to export them to European buyers now. Now I actually think when things settle down and they've had time to adjust, the fishing industry might hopefully see some benefit from the Brexit deal, but it's not a great start. 

Agree, that said, it was one of the casualties that was taken to get a deal, GB wasn't going to have it all their own way on this, so to get a deal, there had to be concessions to the EU, which ironically now are championed by remainers, who knew or cared little beforehand 

Funny that eh?

26 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

In the meantime, a Brexit voter accusing someone else of using the fishing industry as a weapon might want to look a bit closer at the people who convinced him or her to vote for it in the first place.

Its the irony of you using it as a weapon that got me

26 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

I do buy into the view that people on both sides of the divide here need to stop relitigating the debate and scoring points against each other but you've shown from pretty early on with all of this talk of crying that you're not interested. I'm more than willing to have an intelligent debate on the pros and cons of being inside or outside the EU with people who voted to Leave.

I'm happy to chat away about it, 

26 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

However it remains true that some (far from all) people who voted for Brexit are more interested in the fact that they "won" than they are in being empathetic towards the people who have been hit by it and moving on to point out the reasons why overall/in the long term it will still be better for the UK.

In your subjective opinion eh? 

26 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Take Brexit out of it, responding "cry me a river" to people who are worried for their livelihoods and how they're going to put food on the table for their kids is just bang out of order really isn't it.

People?

I was responding to you.

[Moon Monkey]

12 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Do you really think  someone who voted brexit should complain about someone else being delighted Macron behaves like themselves?

Complain? I'm adding context to my post to Stan.

[Stan]

18 minutes ago, Moon Monkey said:

Now it suits your agenda/opinion you use their plight to put forward a moral argument on "their" behalf?

Did you not do this with the Cheshire Cheese thing?

Their plight helps your moral argument that it's only a small business with nothing to do with you or where you live? That suits your agenda that Brexit can still be good?

[Moon Monkey]

4 minutes ago, Stan said:

Did you not do this with the Cheshire Cheese thing?

Their plight helps your moral argument that it's only a small business with nothing to do with you or where you live? That suits your agenda that Brexit can still be good?

Cheshire Cheese was an investment,  was it not? 

They were 'planning'

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Moon Monkey

[RandoEFC+]

5 minutes ago, Moon Monkey said:

Sanctimonious,  making a show of being morally superior 

Yes I know what the word means thanks.

5 minutes ago, Moon Monkey said:

Yet, now you're a champion for it? Now it suits your agenda/opinion you use their plight to put forward a moral argument on "their" behalf?

I have empathy for people whose situations have got worse. I'm aware of their plight now because it's all over the news and they've felt the need to actually protest about it. Having sympathy for someone after something bad happens to them usually comes after it happens, not before. Shouldn't really need explaining. I even said I think there might be benefits of Brexit in the long run but I'm sure you'll discredit that as my objective opinion and focus on the facts of what's actually happened in real life so far.

9 minutes ago, Moon Monkey said:

Its the irony of you using it as a weapon that got me

I agree that it's ironic for fishing to be probably the biggest negative story of Brexit one month in. I prefer the words "example" or "evidence" over "weapon" though. This is a debate (of sorts), not a war.

9 minutes ago, Moon Monkey said:

I'm happy to chat away about it, 

Crack on then. Today is literally the best day for pro-Brexit "bragging rights" since the referendum yet all you're interested in is trying and failing to make me look silly over fishing, which has objectively been one of the biggest and most public harms done by Brexit so far when it was supposed to be a slam dunk for leaving.

14 minutes ago, Moon Monkey said:

In your subjective opinion eh? 

Are you actually trying to prove my point? It's getting difficult to tell.

15 minutes ago, Moon Monkey said:

People?

I was responding to you.

Your first response came to Gonzo and the story about a cheese company expressing factual, objective downsides of leaving the single market and you essentially dismissed it as boring and started talking about the "crying" over Brexit. But please tell me more about how you're happy to chat away about it like an adult.

Christ alive.

[Moon Monkey]

4 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

 

I have empathy for people whose situations have got worse. I'm aware of their plight now because it's all over the news and they've felt the need to actually protest about it.

You were aware beforehand! you even said above, it was used as a Flagship by prominent Brexiters, you forget that wee nugget? So which is it? Did you know or not?

 

Yet here it's your Flagship,  bit ironic, don't you think?

4 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

 

Having sympathy for someone after something bad happens to them usually comes after it happens, not before. Shouldn't really need explaining. I even said I think there might be benefits of Brexit in the long run but I'm sure you'll discredit that as my objective opinion and focus on the facts of what's actually happened in real life so far.

Think we can both agree, there will be benefits and disadvantages,  but here we are.

4 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

I agree that it's ironic for fishing to be probably the biggest negative story of Brexit one month in. I prefer the words "example" or "evidence" over "weapon" though. This is a debate (of sorts), not a war.

Fair enough 

4 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Crack on then. Today is literally the best day for pro-Brexit "bragging rights" since the referendum yet all you're interested in is trying and failing to make me look silly over fishing, which has objectively been one of the biggest and most public harms done by Brexit so far when it was supposed to be a slam dunk for leaving.

True, but you had no cares for the fishing industry beforehand,  well, until it suited.

4 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Are you actually trying to prove my point? It's getting difficult to tell.

Your first response came to Gonzo and the story about a cheese company expressing factual, objective downsides of leaving the single market and you essentially dismissed it as boring and started talking about the "crying" over Brexit. But please tell me more about how you're happy to chat away about it like an adult.

I'm happy to chat away about it.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Moon Monkey said:

When do you think all the crying over Brexit will stop Rando?

Basically: how dare you bring up how wrong we all were. Don’t ever speak of things that could be politically damaging to what I believe. 

[RandoEFC+]

4 minutes ago, Moon Monkey said:

You were aware beforehand! you even said above, it was used as a Flagship by prominent Brexiters, you forget that wee nugget? So which is it? Did you know or not?

 

Yet here it's your Flagship,  bit ironic, don't you think?

I actually clearly said that I didn't know much of the ins and outs of the fishing industry, and I still don't. I am however aware of the stuff that makes the news:

• Before Brexit, fishermen never drove to London in their trucks to protest about their difficulties in exporting fish.
• The Leave campaign held up fishing as one of the flagship industries that would benefit from leaving the EU.
• After leaving the EU, fishermen drove to London in their trucks to protest about their difficulties in exporting fish.

Being aware that it was held up as a flagship industry by prominent Leavers and knowing the exact issues to which they were looking to make improvements are two different things. I hope that clarifies this point.

14 minutes ago, Moon Monkey said:

True, but you had no cares for the fishing industry beforehand,  well, until it suited.

I mean, you're making a bit of an assumption here, I believe this is the first time we've spoken. I have cares for other people in general, no more or less than most do, particularly when something bad has happened to them, and this is the first time I can remember the fishing industry specifically being given the shaft, even if I think and hope it's not going to be so bad in the longer term.

The problem is, this all started because you fell foul of the exact accusation you're currently levelling at me. Your initial post was essentially "why should I care about this lost investment if I don't live there":

4 hours ago, Moon Monkey said:

Had I known, Cheshire Cheese was going to pull the plug on  a whopping £1m deal in somewhere I don't live, to somewhere else I don't live, 

I might not have voted leave. Thats a brutal blow for us all 

I just don't share this world view, I think it's a shame those jobs won't be created in the UK, but it's not all bad I suppose, they'll be created elsewhere, and you could argue that they won't miss something that they never had in the first place. I think you'd be upset though if you were looking for a job, and people elsewhere in the country had voted for a party or a policy that prevented a company from being able to create jobs in your area, and then their response to the news story was similar to yours. 

26 minutes ago, Moon Monkey said:

I'm happy to chat away about it.

This is good, hopefully we can get off on a better foot next time. Personally, I've had my fill for today though.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I wouldn’t still be pissed off about Brexit if not for the fact they had years to get Brexit sorted after a referendum, but instead they’ve played musical chairs with PMs, then fucked around not getting anything sorted. Then a pandemic took the government’s focus away from our divorce from our number one trading partner.

The fact more people who voted leave aren’t fucking livid they were lied to and so much of Britain’s industry looks like it’ll probably forever changed and many jobs will be lost.

Instead we get a “meh it doesn’t affect me, it doesn’t affect you, who cares?” - yeah maybe that’s how it seems right now. But quick and sudden economic changes will ripple through the economy and it’ll impact loads of people in the UK (and abroad).

It’s all fun and games until you realise there’s lots of real people at the end of the shit you hear about on the news. Shitloads of people losing their jobs in one city, or in one industry, or in both, tends to send shitty ripples through communities and the surrounding area.

If there was no benefit to Brexit, what was the point? And if there was no point to Brexit, why can’t we hold the architects of it accountable in even the most minimal sense by criticising them using their own words against them. How many times did Farage go on TV and make his point of the fishing industry? That is, very obviously, why the plight of the British fishing industry is being brought up now. It’s not suddenly brought up at random because it’s failing now - it’s brought up as a failed promise!

[Moon Monkey]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Basically: how dare you bring up how wrong we all were. 

The Good Doctor seems to be of the impression, we all now think we got it wrong 

[Stan]

@Moon Monkey what's the advantages you personally get from Brexit, just out of interest? What's in it for you, basically?

[Moon Monkey]

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

I actually clearly said that I didn't know much of the ins and outs of the fishing industry, and I still don't. I am however aware of the stuff that makes the news:

• Before Brexit, fishermen never drove to London in their trucks to protest about their difficulties in exporting fish.
• The Leave campaign held up fishing as one of the flagship industries that would benefit from leaving the EU.
• After leaving the EU, fishermen drove to London in their trucks to protest about their difficulties in exporting fish.

Being aware that it was held up as a flagship industry by prominent Leavers and knowing the exact issues to which they were looking to make improvements are two different things. I hope that clarifies this point.

The protest was about teething problems regards etc extra paper work etc and delays getting their orders through, the government has 'promised' to compensate those affected through no fault of there own, 

There was always going to be issues during this period, hopefully it gets sorted 

 

 

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

I mean, you're making a bit of an assumption here, I believe this is the first time we've spoken. I have cares for other people in general, no more or less than most do, particularly when something bad has happened to them, and this is the first time I can remember the fishing industry specifically being given the shaft, even if I think and hope it's not going to be so bad in the longer term.

I dont think it will be bad for them long term either

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

The problem is, this all started because you fell foul of the exact accusation you're currently levelling at me. Your initial post was essentially "why should I care about this lost investment if I don't live there":

Well, it was a planned investment,  nothing concrete,  nothing more than a plan?

My point was, there is a lot of ifs and maybes in this story, basically something that may have happened here and may go there.So the company seems to be fine, just location of investment is their issue?

Good luck to them.

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

I just don't share this world view, I think it's a shame those jobs won't be created in the UK, but it's not all bad I suppose, they'll be created elsewhere, and you could argue that they won't miss something that they never had in the first place

Thats basically my point 

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

 

I think you'd be upset though if you were looking for a job, and people elsewhere in the country had voted for a party or a policy that prevented a company from being able to create jobs in your area, and then their response to the news story was similar to yours. 

Thats a statement and a half right there,  

Why people elsewhere in the country? Why not me? Why couldn't I be after a job and have voted to leave or for a party that wanted to leave?

What policy prevented this company investing in the UK?

 

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

This is good, hopefully we can get off on a better foot next time. Personally, I've had my fill for today though.

Fair enough,  hopefully we can build on this.

[Moon Monkey]

37 minutes ago, Stan said:

@Moon Monkey what's the advantages you personally get from Brexit, just out of interest? What's in it for you, basically?

Stan, I will consider that and get back to you as I'm currently drinking Belgium beer atm

[Stan]

Just now, Moon Monkey said:

Stan, I will consider that and get back to you as I'm currently drinking Belgium beer atm

I wanna hear the answer after the beer-drinking to be fair  

[RandoEFC+]

I don't know if anyone else reads much of Marina Hyde's stuff but I enjoyed her recent column on Keir Starmer, particularly this poignant comparison that most of us can appreciate.

Full article:

Not the first critical piece I've seen on Starmer from Labour-sympathising figures in the media recently. I do feel that he has stalled badly recently. The pandemic makes things tricky for him because being a massive thorn in the government's side is simultaneously his job as leader of the opposition but also incredibly counter productive in a life and death crisis. Early on it felt good just to have an adult in the room and the polling was positive for quite a few months but now things have sort of fizzled out and he needs a lot more oomph. It would be easy to claim now that most of Labour's polling gains have been less to do with him and more to do with just not having Corbyn in charge, the cut through of the Cummings incident and dissatisfaction with the government's handling of the pandemic.

[LFCMike]

 

[God is Haaland]

On 30/01/2021 at 21:45, Moon Monkey said:

Stan, I will consider that and get back to you as I'm currently drinking Belgium beer atm

[Moon Monkey]

1 hour ago, God is Haaland said:

I'll stop drinking next week.

[God is Haaland]

Edited February 15, 2021 by God is Haaland

[Moon Monkey]

2 hours ago, God is Haaland said:

All in good time, this Belgium beer won't drink itself. 

[God is Haaland]

[DeadLinesman]

Just reminded me I need to watch this.