UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Smiley Culture]

Leadership is an action not a position. To then have the gall to address the public and lay down “rules” is astonishing. I can’t believe anyone with any sort of common sense thought that out of this shitstorm, now was the time to start telling the general public what they can and can’t do. It astounds me that Johnson is a shit that won’t flush. How he’s still in a job is beyond me.

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

'Suffer for their ignorance'...What????? It's not anybody's fault. this is a virus, it can jump anywhere, anytime. We are social beings and virus transmission is inevitable, it cannot be prevented. Human beings do not control the world in the way we think we do and we are subject to nature just as every animal is. I know this is big shock to people here who think we're owed a 100% germ free world. 

Anti-vaxxers are largely deluded, lonely people but blaming the spread of a virus on them is ridiculous. The virus will mutate and mutate again, so it can spread and evade vaccines. BUt, it will be like the cold. That's where the cold comes from, it's a very close relation.

Vaccines still help stop the spread. No scientist debates that having more people vaccinated will help. Anti vaxers have their facts wrong. Why should we suffer for that?

[RandoEFC+]

34% man.

[The Artful Dodger]

9 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Vaccines still help stop the spread. No scientist debates that having more people vaccinated will help. Anti vaxers have their facts wrong. Why should we suffer for that?

Partially, but not totally or not anywhere near to the extent made out. Viruses are viruses, they are unbeatable, that's why AIDs* is still so strong. Blaming this on a minority of loons helps nobody, I realise we need scapegoats and people to feel superior but nature is greater than human beings. I think we've forgotten than, we're at its whim to even be alive  in the first place. The answer is not to cower and not live life, the road we're on is a terrible one where we're whipped up every other month into frenzy.

*Incidentally a far, far worse disease than COVID could ever hope to be but it effected Africans and Homosexuals so nothing was done about it.

Edited December 8, 2021 by The Artful Dodger

[Guest]

@RandoEFC that is happening in schools. That is the moral difficulties with the lockdowns. I don't really think I learned much past year 9 to be honest and my GCSE results have had no impact on my life at all as I still would be doing the same job. I was never an academic person. But not all kids are the same. Like you said though the emotional part is a problem as well. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Partially, but not totally or not anywhere near to the extent made out. Viruses are viruses, they are unbeatable, that's why AIDs is still so strong. Blaming this one a minority of loons helps nobody, I realise we need scapegoats and people to feel superior too but nature is greater than human beings. I think we've forgotten than, we're at its whim to be alive.

I dont know how much it helps mate. No offence but I dont tend to take much notice of people on internet forums with data like effectiveness of vaccines at stopping a spread. It's nothing personal against you or anyone on here but I listen to experts only.

[The Artful Dodger]

44 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

I dont know how much it helps mate. No offence but I dont tend to take much notice of people on internet forums with data like effectiveness of vaccines at stopping a spread. It's nothing personal against you or anyone on here but I listen to experts only.

I'm not asking you to 'take notice', merely exchanging opinions. 

The lockdown lovers are every bit as bad as the anti vaxxers. Middle class, well off people who can sit comfortably in their nice homes without a care for what lockdown really means. Well they will do in 5-10 years when the result of what we've done really becomes apparent. 

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by The Artful Dodger

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I'm not asking you to 'take notice', merely exchanging opinions. 

The lockdown lovers are every bit as bad as the anti vaxxers. Middle class, well off people who can sit comfortably in their nice homes without a care for what lockdown really means. Well they will do in 5-10 years when the result of what we've done really becomes apparent. 

 

Thats a bit of a generalisation but ok 

[Waylander]

1 hour ago, The Artful Dodger said:

'Suffer for their ignorance'...What????? It's not anybody's fault. this is a virus, it can jump anywhere, anytime. We are social beings and virus transmission is inevitable, it cannot be prevented. Human beings do not control the world in the way we think we do and we are subject to nature just as every animal is. I know this is big shock to people here who think we're owed a 100% germ free world. 

Anti-vaxxers are largely deluded, lonely people but blaming the spread of a virus on them is ridiculous. The virus will mutate and mutate again, so it can spread and evade vaccines. BUt, it will be like the cold. That's where the cold comes from, it's a very close relation.

You are correct on the virus, the former Israel Medical Head at the outset said lockdowns are silly you cannot stop a virus and it mutates too quickly.

He went further on those deaths in Northern Italy saying this is normal every winter a lot die due to the specific geography there. 

The other thing a lot died on the respirators as staff did not know how to use them and so were giving them pure oxygen which is poisonous. 

After saying this the  former Israeli head was never consulted again and excluded from the media. 

Recently in Israel the head has come under attack after another lock down and after 4 rounds of vaccination the media got wind that his wife and family were flying out for a vacation.

[Guest]

@Waylander experts have said time and time again lockdowns help that's  not true that they dont. One expert may say the opposite but more disagree 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Guest

[nudge]

19 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Waylander experts have said time and time again lockdowns help that's  not true that they dont. One expert may say the opposite but more disagree 

Regarding experts: you might be interested in reading The Great Barrington Declaration. Regardless if one agrees with them and their suggestions or not, it's still a considerably large group of experts who have been opposing strict lockdown measures since 2020. Created by three epidemiology professors at Oxford, Harvard and Stanford, and signed by 15,091 medical & public health scientists and 44,541 medical practitioners around the world. 

[Guest]

Just now, nudge said:

Regarding experts: you might be interested in reading The Great Barrington Declaration. Regardless if one agrees with them and their suggestions or not, it's still a considerably large group of experts who have been opposing strict lockdown measures since 2020. Created by three epidemiology professors at Oxford, Harvard and Stanford, and signed by 15,091 medical & public health scientists and 44,541 medical practitioners around the world. 

Fair enough. If that's what they say. I've said before always go along with what the experts say.  Although I've also heard that they thought that there could have been 500 thousands deaths if it wasnt for the UK lockdown 

[Guest]

@nudge I've just had a quick look. Certainly it carries some weight. Whether this is majority opinion though is hard to tell. To be honest my opinions are very hypothetical. I don't have opinions on what I think is best. I dont have anywhere near enough knowledge. My opinions are generally more based on what's ethical with the data  we have. 

[nudge]

7 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Fair enough. If that's what they say. I've said before always go along with what the experts say.  Although I've also heard that they thought that there could have been 500 thousands deaths if it wasnt for the UK lockdown 

Wasn't the 500.000 deaths figure a forecast based on a modelling by Neil Ferguson's group? If yes, I believe he himself has admitted that his predictions were off. 

Anyway, my point was that there have always been differing opinions on this even among scientists and "experts"; I don't think there's a strong consensus. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, nudge said:

Wasn't the 500.000 deaths figure a forecast based on a modelling by Neil Ferguson's group? If yes, I believe he himself has admitted that his predictions were off. 

Anyway, my point was that there have always been differing opinions on this even among scientists and "experts"; I don't think there's a strong consensus. 

 I dont know which group said it. I dont think there is any dispute lockdowns will help get the covid death toll down. Its just a case of are they worth it for the long term effects it will cause and whether more will die from other causes.  Like I said the main thing is whether you support them or not is that you think that for the good of society. If you support either for your own personal gain and dont care about others that is wrong. 

[Tommy]

32 minutes ago, shut up said:

I heard Germany & Italy have also tightened restrictions too. Hopefully Olaf handles this better than Merkel

Merkel always wanted harder restrictions sooner, but she was almost always overruled/disregarded by Ministers of the different states. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

 

 

[Guest]

Moggy is the worst one of the lot. Hes a massive cunt even by conservative standards. If this gets him kicked out the party I will  run up the street naked 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Guest

[RandoEFC+]

Anyone else's parents save the newspaper from the day they were born?

Johnson's wife gave birth to a little girl today. I wonder if they'll do the same for her? 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, shut up said:

Any pics?

@MUFC ??

[MUFC]

5 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@MUFC ??

We need more of this.

[Bluewolf]

[Guest]

On 08/12/2021 at 20:53, nudge said:

Regarding experts: you might be interested in reading The Great Barrington Declaration. Regardless if one agrees with them and their suggestions or not, it's still a considerably large group of experts who have been opposing strict lockdown measures since 2020. Created by three epidemiology professors at Oxford, Harvard and Stanford, and signed by 15,091 medical & public health scientists and 44,541 medical practitioners around the world. 

Here is a link about it. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54442386

The link I have only mentioned 6000 and near 50 000 members of the public. Wikipedia suggested that the WHO and leading experts did recommend lockdowns but did advice that the effects could be very bad but not as worse as not having lockdowns. Although that is largely subjective depending on your priorities. To me there doesnt appear to be any doubt lockdowns stop the spread. Whether they are worth the costs is subjective 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_lockdowns

[nudge]

8 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Here is a link about it. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54442386

The link I have only mentioned 6000 and near 50 000 members of the public. Wikipedia suggested that the WHO and leading experts did recommend lockdowns but did advice that the effects could be very bad but not as worse as not having lockdowns. Although that is largely subjective depending on your priorities. To me there doesnt appear to be any doubt lockdowns stop the spread. Whether they are worth the costs is subjective 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_lockdowns

Well it's probably because that link is over a year old... 

As I said, my point was to show that there are different opinions on the matter. In the end, when you say you're listening to the experts, you're making a choice of which experts you listen to. It's always worth hearing the other side of the argument, regardless what the topic is.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, nudge said:

Well it's probably because that link is over a year old... 

As I said, my point was to show that there are different opinions on the matter. In the end, when you say you're listening to the experts, you're making a choice of which experts you listen to. It's always worth hearing the other side of the argument, regardless what the topic is.

Not really. I'm listening to the leading experts and what a majority say. I dont think a majority agree from what I have  read.