UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Inverted]

The country voted to leave the EU. May's Deal accomplishes that. 

Any deal we agree with the EU will inevitably be almost entirely to their liking because they are enormously more powerful than we are, far better led, and incomparably better prepared. 

The alternative is to leave with No Deal, for which there exists absolutely no mandate. 

She's a corrupt bitch pushing bullshit as has always been her profession, be it for the tobacco industry or for the Tory party. 

The only new deal we could get would most likely be one which leaves us even more closely aligned with the EU than May's does. The EU is prepared for No Deal, they wouldn't be happy about it but they've come to terms with the possibility and have rightly decided that it's better than abandoning their foundational principles for our sake. We are not prepared, and we have not yet fully grasped the consequences, mostly because the consequences for us will be an order of magnitude more severe than they will be for the EU. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Inverted

[RandoEFC+]

We should be talking more about how disgusting democracy has become in this country if it's a genuine strategy that, if the Prime Minister can't get something through parliament because it's not a good deal for the country, then if she offers up her resignation suddenly a bunch of Conservative MPs could backtrack and decide they can accept the deal on behalf of the country if it opens up gaps above them in the party. Absolutely disgusting.

Not saying things would be any different with any other party before I get jumped on.

[Harry]

39 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

We should be talking more about how disgusting democracy has become in this country if it's a genuine strategy that, if the Prime Minister can't get something through parliament because it's not a good deal for the country, then if she offers up her resignation suddenly a bunch of Conservative MPs could backtrack and decide they can accept the deal on behalf of the country if it opens up gaps above them in the party. Absolutely disgusting.

Not saying things would be any different with any other party before I get jumped on.

But surely there are easier ways to create openings up above, such as just vote to oust. 

Why accept a deal to make it happen?

 

[Inverted]

26 minutes ago, Harry said:

But surely there are easier ways to create openings up above, such as just vote to oust. 

Why accept a deal to make it happen?

 

Because most Tories would probably prefer to keep May for now. So forcing a vote wouldn't do anything most likely.

But May absolutely needs the rebels' votes to pass her Deal. And she's already aware that her chances of being there for the next election are slim.

So it's not much of a concession for her to make, to give her deal a fighting chance. And the Deal is basically her only chance of having any achievement to show for her premiership. 

Besides the porn ban.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Inverted

[Honey Honey]

There already was a vote to oust May, she won it. You can't force another one there is a time limit on these things. Her job is safe. So her resignation and dropping the political declaration from the vote does offer the perception of chance to some of the ERG to reshape things. Over a year ago May already promised to resign before the next election. Bringing her resignation forward doesn't mean much.

There is no consensus for anything in parliament, anything at all, in or out and its variances. The only way to establish consensus is to back people into a corner. Doing so is going to lead to politicians voting for things they previously voted against. You see in the indicative votes politicians voting for things they've already voted against.

[Fairy In Boots]

Grieve lost his no confidence battle , the bloodbath will ensue. 

If we still are in for the European elections we expect a massive protest vote. 

Personally I think we’re moving to no deal now, polls are indicating that it’s becoming more popular and Raab has stole a march on his rivals backing it. Very much like racking off a plaster don’t pussy foot around rip the cunt off and let’s get on with it

[Honey Honey]

2 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

If we still are in for the European elections we expect a massive protest vote. 

Yeah... by continuity remain.

[Fairy In Boots]

On 30/03/2019 at 17:08, Harvsky said:

Yeah... by continuity remain.

In London maybe, think they’ll get trounced outside of it. Tories are on thin ice over this, and I could genuinely see Corbyn winning and then we’re all fucked

[Inverted]

16 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

In London maybe, think they’ll get trounced outside of it. Tories are on thin ice over this, and I could genuinely see Corbyn winning and then we’re all fucked

Can't wait to be fucked by mainstream growth-oriented economics.

The only question is if the Tories will preemptively wreck the country and plunge hundreds of thousands more into poverty with No Deal just to purposelessly hold onto power for a few more months. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Inverted

[MUFC]

fucking bastards, I cannot believe they bottled it again. They are spineless. 

It's fucking obvious most MPs know brexit will cause more damage than good. They know it's costing money by the day and is proving to be a disaster. They know 1 trillion of funds were lost recently meaning billions upon billions of taxes but they persist with this self-destruction. They are idiotic beyond belief. 

They know they should put a vote to the public - Norway style deal or remain. The Norway style deal is the brexit with the least damage, so realistically is the one that should be put to the public. MPs know it, so need to find their balls and vote for it .

[Harry]

On 14/03/2019 at 19:59, Stan said:

 

Could you go to a public vote with 4 options using a preference based system?

I could see an argument for a second vote if it opened up the options to get a clearer picture...

[The Artful Dodger]

Can we all agree on whatever winds fairy in boots the most?

Wouldn't even mind but there's so many better Black Sabbath songs than that.

Edited April 3, 2019 by The Artful Dodger

[Inverted]

May's speech is really just "let's talk, but if you don't back my Deal it's still No Deal, but it will be all your fault". 

Most of the media seem encouraged by the announcement but tbh I can't see as anything else but a bad sign. The Tories are behaving as if No Deal is imminent, and they've started working to prepare the groundwork for the post-disaster political battle.

[Inverted]

 

 

Not sure what the surprise is, I thought it was tradition for the Paras to use civilians as target practice.

[Bluebird Hewitt]

On 01/04/2019 at 22:50, Inverted said:

Can't wait to be fucked by mainstream growth-oriented economics.

Which are? 

[Fairy In Boots]

On 02/04/2019 at 20:11, The Artful Dodger said:

Can we all agree on whatever winds fanny in boots the most?

Wouldn't even mind but there's so many better Black Sabbath songs than that.

It’s not mine either tbh. 

On 01/04/2019 at 22:50, Inverted said:

Can't wait to be fucked by mainstream growth-oriented economics.

The only question is if the Tories will preemptively wreck the country and plunge hundreds of thousands more into poverty with No Deal just to purposelessly hold onto power for a few more months. 

Venezuela is nice in summer I hear. 

On 02/04/2019 at 09:15, MUFC said:

fucking bastards, I cannot believe they bottled it again. They are spineless. 

It's fucking obvious most MPs know brexit will cause more damage than good. They know it's costing money by the day and is proving to be a disaster. They know 1 trillion of funds were lost recently meaning billions upon billions of taxes but they persist with this self-destruction. They are idiotic beyond belief. 

They know they should put a vote to the public - Norway style deal or remain. The Norway style deal is the brexit with the least damage, so realistically is the one that should be put to the public. MPs know it, so need to find their balls and vote for it .

Lol the conservative manifesto they were elected on was opposed to all of the above. 

On 02/04/2019 at 21:55, Inverted said:

May's speech is really just "let's talk, but if you don't back my Deal it's still No Deal, but it will be all your fault". 

Most of the media seem encouraged by the announcement but tbh I can't see as anything else but a bad sign. The Tories are behaving as if No Deal is imminent, and they've started working to prepare the groundwork for the post-disaster political battle.

Every region of England and Wales is polling as having a preference for no deal now except for London. 

It’s almost like I called this shit about a month ago, still though all these remain loving members who got the Referendum result wrong, it’s motives wrong, & the mood of the country wrong know best eh? 

 

Also on May, surpassed Eden as probably the worst PM we’ve ever had, total invertebrate 

[Fairy In Boots]

16 minutes ago, Bluebird Hewitt said:

Which are? 

Flawed

if you want to really kick on you’ve gotta take away incentives for the rich and spread the wealth to provide comfort. That’s what really helps nations progress, take away the carrot and the stick and just doss in the middle man, peace & love, fuck the system, for the many not the few!!!

[Dr. Gonzo]

The EU is saying they aren't going to open trade talks with the UK after a potential hard Brexit until it agrees to the divorce bill & Irish backstop. A bit obvious... but sometimes the obvious needs to be stated because it seems many don't think about the obvious.

[Honey Honey]

 

 

12 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Every region of England and Wales is polling as having a preference for no deal now except for London. 

It’s almost like I called this shit about a month ago, still though all these remain loving members who got the Referendum result wrong, it’s motives wrong, & the mood of the country wrong know best eh? 

The polling is based on a hypothetical where the EU refuses extension and you are left with the choice of remain, no deal or not sure. That's not actually real life options currently. The result is also not a majority. Sample size is also probably very low.

If anything, it might suggest that a bigger chunk of leave voters just want out no matter what than the amount of remain voters who will always tick remain.

[Inverted]

13 hours ago, Bluebird Hewitt said:

Which are? 

That investment in job creation and education, and the enforcement of liveable wages, is the best way to get people into the workforce, as opposed to pushing swathes of incapable people onto the job market, chasing small amounts of insecure, unliveable work at pain of homelessness. 

That our economy is fundamentally unbalanced towards an unstable financial sector concentrated around London, and that without improved infastructure and without incentivising the creation of new industries in the regions, that wealth will concentrate in London and the bulk of the country will stay stuck on the post-industrial shitheap.

That lower-income households are extremely disproportionately burdened by excessive rents and utilities overcharges, and that expanding the housing supply and establishing public control over utilities will create a great deal more economic freedom for those on lower incomes.

And that all of this can be funded by enforcing tax laws properly, as opposed to turning a blind eye and allowing money to be unproductively sucked out of the economy just because half the government are tax dodgers. 

[Inverted]

17 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Flawed

if you want to really kick on you’ve gotta take away incentives for the rich and spread the wealth to provide comfort. That’s what really helps nations progress, take away the carrot and the stick and just doss in the middle man, peace & love, fuck the system, for the many not the few!!!

The Tories have already took away the carrot for 90% of the population. There's only the stick - as shown by the increasing numbers of homeless.

The rich are left overincentivised because they're under no pressure to innovate and reinvest, because they're free to hoard their wealth and circumvent tax. Because the job market is so saturated with job seekers that you can offer any wage you like under any conditions. And it's so easy to get returns by investing in London that the idea of getting involved in enterprise in the regions is comparatively pointless. 

The free market only works when both sides have choice and information. When one side is completely unskilled, and has been told that they need to accept the first job offered to them or be completely cut-off from any income, and they're already  short on 3 months' rent, that's not a free market. That's called monopsony - a buyer's market, and the unemployed are left selling themselves not because theres any carrot on offer, but because the stick is right behind them ready to make them homeless in a moment. 

Please just say you're comfortable and don't give a shit about the rest. I can respect that. It just comes off as disingenuous when you try and talk about this stuff like you've got a wider reason for your beliefs. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by Inverted

[Kowabunga]

8 hours ago, Inverted said:

The Tories have already took away the carrot for 90% of the population. There's only the stick - as shown by the increasing numbers of homeless.

The rich are left overincentivised because they're under no pressure to innovate and reinvest, because they're free to hoard their wealth and circumvent tax. Because the job market is so saturated with job seekers that you can offer any wage you like under any conditions. And it's so easy to get returns by investing in London that the idea of getting involved in enterprise in the regions is comparatively pointless. 

The free market only works when both sides have choice and information. When one side is completely unskilled, and has been told that they need to accept the first job offered to them or be completely cut-off from any income, and they're already  short on 3 months' rent, that's not a free market. That's called monopsony - a buyer's market, and the unemployed are left selling themselves not because theres any carrot on offer, but because the stick is right behind them ready to make them homeless in a moment. 

Please just say you're comfortable and don't give a shit about the rest. I can respect that. It just comes off as disingenuous when you try and talk about this stuff like you've got a wider reason for your beliefs. 

Fairy looks like he's read too much Mark Fisher and Ayn Rand lately. In any case vis-à-vis those seeing increasing unequality over 9000 as a mean to reach a technological singularity, subsequently restoring national glory... the later if it happens, it is going to happen in China whether they like it or not.

[The Artful Dodger]

Sounds like there is going to be a second vote now. We'll Remain.

[RandoEFC+]

Christ this is a mess. Even as a remainer I think a second vote is morally wrong even if I think a U-turn on Brexit is the best for us in the long term.

I still don't think it's guaranteed that Remain would win this time around, and if it does, you'll see serious riots and violence up and down the country I'd imagine.

[Inverted]

If there's another referendum I honestly think the hardcore Brexiteers will see it as a huge opportunity to get a no deal scenario.