FC Barcelona Discussion

[Stan]

Good thread on Barca's finances. 

 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 hours ago, Stan said:

Good thread on Barca's finances. 

 

 

It still all seems very risky to me. Because aside from all of these loan restructurings (which are absolutely a good thing for them)... they've also had to pull these things Barca and the Barca media mouthpieces are calling "financial levers."

Things like selling off significant portions of their TV revenue for the next 25 years & selling away significant portions of their rights to merchandising and licensing (which I think means expect a load of cheap crap being made with Barca branding) for short-term gain... it seems like sort of mortgaging against their future to stay afloat. I know they have to do these sorts of things if they want to stay competitive now... but I do wonder if it's a bit short-sighted.

I also think it's a bit funny they're "pulling all these levers" for short term benefit, but aren't really concerned with paying De Jong his deferred wages.

[ScoRoss]

Another 15% of their television rights being sold off, for the next 25 years.

Soon they'll have nothing left to sell off.

[Cicero]

Barcelona's Las Vegas-style gamble depends on legal fate of European Super League (President Joan Laporta is selling tomorrow to pay for today and spending forecasted revenues like they are guaranteed)

 

[Danny]

12 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Barcelona's Las Vegas-style gamble depends on legal fate of European Super League (President Joan Laporta is selling tomorrow to pay for today and spending forecasted revenues like they are guaranteed)

 

paywall

[Stan]

7 minutes ago, Danny said:

paywall

https://12ft.io/

[SirBalon]

Barça aren’t gonna be able to register the signings unless a miracle occurs. They’ve apparently asked De Jong to reduce his wages by €4,000,000. That beggars the question on how much are they paying him and others. He is supposedly owed €28,000,000 in back payments. Now, it doesn’t matter if that’s exaggerated or not. Vary it by even €5m here or there for a huge error in assumptions. There are real issues at that club. I can see something major happening very soon.

[Stan]

20 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Barça aren’t gonna be able to register the signings unless a miracle occurs. They’ve apparently asked De Jong to reduce his wages by €4,000,000. That beggars the question on how much are they paying him and others. He is supposedly owed €28,000,000 in back payments. Now, it doesn’t matter if that’s exaggerated or not. Vary it by even €5m here or there for a huge error in assumptions. There are real issues at that club. I can see something major happening very soon.

They'll collapse, surely?!

[Stan]

Also, the new players must have had some assurances they can play? Players like Lewandowski aren't stupid (you'd hope) to make a big deal about moving there with the knowledge they won't be able to play. 

[SirBalon]

53 minutes ago, Stan said:

They'll collapse, surely?!

Their only solution is to win tournaments and particularly the Champions League because forget the prize money itself (which is substantial), it’s everything else that comes with that. You can win leagues and domestic cups all you like but these types of clubs run on an unrealistic level and to maintain that level they have two choices... either run it efficiently and effectively like Bayern or make sure you win that tournament a few times every decade and then do what you want. But the moment you hit a barren patch, make sure you’re run like Bayern at that particular level.

Look at it this way. Barça have a €500m+ wage expenditure on the male football team per season. Bayern have half of that and Real Madrid who are serial winners of that tournament were spending €400m per season before this summer (they’ve substantially reduced that since). That gives you a basic quick example of the task at hand for them.

What have they chosen to do?

They’ve selected to borrow from their future takings by selling 25% of their tv rights for the next 25 years, sold 10% of the stadium rights which brings them immense money from football tourists annually and the CVC which they exhausted almost immediately to pay back wages owed.

I could go on, but they’re good examples to more or less give people an idea of the task at hand.

Will they go under?

Well they’ve been very lucky that a new golden generation has suddenly appeared and they’ve signed players that can compete (they need to register them though, and that’s not foregone).

But who guarantees winning the Champions League in a serial manner? They didn’t even manage to retain it with probably the best club team in the history of the game whilst Real managed it in (apparent) dire straits how many times in recent years?

I can see this happening to other clubs in Europe too. Particularly in the Premier League if clubs don’t take heed.

If Barcelona survive, it’ll be a miracle.

Edited July 25, 2022 by SirBalon

[Stan]

15 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Their only solution is to win tournaments and particularly the Champions League because forget the prize money itself (which is substantial), it’s everything else that comes with that. You can win leagues and domestic cups all you like but these types of clubs run on an unrealistic level and to maintain that level they have two choices... either run it efficiently and effectively like Bayern or make sure you win that tournament a few times every decade and then do what you want. But the moment you hit a barren patch, make sure you’re run like Bayern at that particular level.

Look at it this way. Barça have a €500m+ wage expenditure on the male football team per season. Bayern have half of that and Real Madrid who are serial winners of that tournament were spending €400m per season before this summer (they’ve substantially reduced that since). That gives you a basic quick example of the task at hand for them.

What have they chosen to do?

They’ve selected to borrow from their future takings by selling 25% of their tv rights for the next 25 years, sold 10% of the stadium rights which brings them immense money from football tourists annually and the CVC which they exhausted almost immediately to pay back wages owed.

I could go on, but they’re good examples to more or less give people an idea of the task at hand.

Will they go under?

Well they’ve been very lucky that a new golden generation has suddenly appeared and they’ve signed players that can compete (they need to register them though, and that’s bot foregone).

But who guarantees winning the Champions League in a serial manner? They didn’t even manage to retain it with probably the best club team in the history of the game whilst Real managed it in (apparent) dire straits how many times in recent years?

I can see this happening to other clubs in Europe too. Particularly in the Premier League if clubs don’t take heed.

If Barcelona survive, it’ll be a miracle.

Is that winning the CL this season? Or within 2-3?

Pinning all hopes on winning in one season is so naive. Almost a sign of desperation. 

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Stan said:

Is that winning the CL this season? Or within 2-3?

Pinning all hopes on winning in one season is so naive. Almost a sign of desperation. 

Answer me this mate... How many seasons has Lewandowski got remaining in his legs? That’s the bet as far as I can see unless one of the kids does the business.

[Cicero]

De Jong should consider legal action v Barcelona and all players should be behind him!A club spending fortunes on new players whilst not paying the ones they have under contract their full money is immoral and a breach. @FIFPRO should be all over bullying like this and stop it.

— Gary Neville (@GNev2) July 25, 2022

[SirBalon]

6 minutes ago, Cicero said:

De Jong should consider legal action v Barcelona and all players should be behind him!A club spending fortunes on new players whilst not paying the ones they have under contract their full money is immoral and a breach. @FIFPRO should be all over bullying like this and stop it.

— Gary Neville (@GNev2) July 25, 2022

Totally agree. This is upto the LFP to sort out and they’ve taken clubs to task on it many times before (Valencia, Elche, Osasuna, Racing Santander, Getafe and Sevilla in recent memory). But HE has to take it to them and they’ll act with all the arms of the law which is only just as his wages were a signed contract. But Barça have been reducing wages (with wages owed) over the past two years with notable mentions for Piqué and Busquets. It may be funny, but Messi offered to play for free for two years (I know how that one goes @Fusion ) and they decided against the liability that it contained.

I don’t claim to know all the ins and outs on all of this and am just a curious observer. But I do have an opinion for what it’s worth... Barça deserve to learn their lesson. Their (socios) electorate or fans (whatever you want to call the system) are ultimately to blame and what’s gone on over the past 7 to 8 years NEEDS to be punished for the good of the game. You can’t get away with shit like that. 

[Spike]

Barcelona should have healthy finances. Here are Spike's retroactive genius decisions

• Don't buy Dembele
• Don't buy Griezmann
• Don't buy Coutinho
• Don't buy Malcom
• Don't buy de Jong
• Buy Ferran Torres from Valencia not Manchester City
• Don't send Suarez to Atletico and pay for his salary on top of it
• Don't even entertain buying old players like Vidal, Paulinho, Boateng
• Use the extra half billion to keep Messi around
• Admit to a few years of being a good team instead of a great team and use youth players to slowly replace the veterans

Before Pedri, Barcelona made about three good transfers in a decade, Alba, Suarez, and Rakitic.

[Stan]

 

[ScoRoss]

15 hours ago, Spike said:

Barcelona should have healthy finances. Here are Spike's retroactive genius decisions

• Don't buy Dembele
• Don't buy Griezmann
• Don't buy Coutinho
• Don't buy Malcom
• Don't buy de Jong
• Buy Ferran Torres from Valencia not Manchester City
• Don't send Suarez to Atletico and pay for his salary on top of it
• Don't even entertain buying old players like Vidal, Paulinho, Boateng
• Use the extra half billion to keep Messi around
• Admit to a few years of being a good team instead of a great team and use youth players to slowly replace the veterans

Before Pedri, Barcelona made about three good transfers in a decade, Alba, Suarez, and Rakitic.

And back a bit further and don't spend $56.1 million combined to sign Aleix Vidal and Arda Turan, neither of which could play for the first six months of their deals.

[Dr. Gonzo]

On 25/07/2022 at 10:43, SirBalon said:

Totally agree. This is upto the LFP to sort out and they’ve taken clubs to task on it many times before (Valencia, Elche, Osasuna, Racing Santander, Getafe and Sevilla in recent memory). But HE has to take it to them and they’ll act with all the arms of the law which is only just as his wages were a signed contract. But Barça have been reducing wages (with wages owed) over the past two years with notable mentions for Piqué and Busquets. It may be funny, but Messi offered to play for free for two years (I know how that one goes @Fusion ) and they decided against the liability that it contained.

I don’t claim to know all the ins and outs on all of this and am just a curious observer. But I do have an opinion for what it’s worth... Barça deserve to learn their lesson. Their (socios) electorate or fans (whatever you want to call the system) are ultimately to blame and what’s gone on over the past 7 to 8 years NEEDS to be punished for the good of the game. You can’t get away with shit like that. 

Which fans fall into that group of the socios who get to elect the board? What's their relationship with the people that actually end up on the board? It's worth asking because between the last board and this board... I think I'd be pretty fucking annoyed with the people electing these people.

Because frankly, the last Barca board just seemed as inept as you can be. They had Messi and they spent money on Coutinho and Griezman... an absurd amount of money on them... both players who are best in the space that Messi typically occupies. Absolute waste of money. Then all the other transfers @Spike and @ScoRossjust detailed... it's just bad business where signings are made for the sake of making signings rather than having an actual plan for how to use those players to be brought in.

And then we've got Laporte back in control of the club... and I think he's done enough for where we can all say "I think he's more competent than Barto" - and yet he's making these risky decisions about the future of Barcelona that I think can come back to bite a club in the arse. Giving up a percentage of TV rights for 25 years locks in a price for whoever buys it... for 25 years where the TV money in La Liga is surely bound to go up. It's almost inevitably going to be a source of financial strain for Barca in the coming 25 years...

... and it only really pans out for as long as Barca can challenge for La Liga and the CL immediately - and I don't think that's necessarily a given for Barca. It could work out... but it could also be another financial issue that another Barca board have to deal with.

I don't necessarily think that's the best way to run a football club, kicking a serious problem down the road for someone else to deal with in the future... when it will no longer be your mess to clean up. And at this point... can we say that the socios won't just elect another board that'll do the same thing and kick the can down the road while mortgaging the club's future for the sake of it's present?

Seems like a vicious cycle where Barca can easily end up fucking themselves over for decades.

[Spike]

On 26/07/2022 at 06:38, ScoRoss said:

And back a bit further and don't spend $56.1 million combined to sign Aleix Vidal and Arda Turan, neither of which could play for the first six months of their deals.

Mate, I was typing out a thread for all the transfers that Barcelona has made since Guardiola, and I was sorting them into bad, great and too early to tell. It was too much work but the bad transfers were totalling at over one billion euros.

Here is what I found out via transfermarket

@SirBalon @Carnivore Chris could probably rate the transfers better than me, but IMO most were unnecessary.

Quote

Since Guardiola left these are all the players they have bought.

All amounts are in Euros

Bad transfers

• Alex Song 19m
• Bojan 13m
• Jeremy Mathieu 20m
• Thomas Vermaelen 19m
• Claudio Bravo 12m
• Douglas 4m
• Arda Turan 34m
• Aleix Vidal 17m
• Andre Gomes 37m
• Paco Alcacer 30m
• Samuel Umtiti 25m
• Lucas Digne 16.5m
• Jasper Cillessen 13m
• Denis Suarez 3.25m
• Ousmane Dembele 140m
• Coutinho 135m
• Paulinho 40m
• Nelson Semedo 35.7m
• Yerry Mina 12.4m
• Gerard Deulofeu 12m
• Marlon 5m
• Malcom 41m
• Clement Lenglet 35.9m
• Arthur and Miralem Pjanic end up costing a total of 15m after the trade but technicality they were bought for 31m and 60m respectively, this one was a little trickier
• Arturo Vidal 18
• Emerson 12m
• Jean Todibo 1m
• Jeison Murillo 1.2m loan
• KP Boaten 1m loan
• Francisco Trincao 41m
• Emerson (again) 14m
• Antoine Griezman 120m
• Frenkie de Jong 86m
• Neto 26m
• Firpo 20m
• Marin Braithwaite 18m
• Matheus Fernandes 7m
• Marc Cucurella 4m

Great transfers

• Jordi Alba 14m
• Neymar 88m
• Luis Suarez 81.72m
• Ivan Rakitic 12m
• Marc-Andre ster Stegen 12m
• Pedri 17.5m

 

Undecided (probably shit)

• Sergino Dest 21m
• Ferran Torres 55m
• Raphinha 58m
• Robert Lewandowski 45m

 

[True Blue]

If Chelsea did this and spend so much without having money, Uefa would dig a hole for us and bury us so deep we would probably never see the light again. However the Uefa favourites can get away with everything. Definitely should be banned and punished, the rules should be the same for the big and the small clubs. Uefa if you are reading this forum first fuck off you cunts, and here is an example for a punishment:

Four years no Europe, the same amount of no possibility to sign players. Pay off what they owe to their players before they can play in La Liga again, and then let us see will they try to cheat the system again.

[Cicero]

After hearing La Liga’s president yesterday it almost sounds like he wants Barcelona to carry on doing this, given it is bringing more quality into the league thus increasing viewership. 
 

No doubt they are going to give Barcelona leeway again. 
 

@True Blue It’s evident City, Barcelona and Real are Uefa’s untouchables. Which they would just admit it. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Cicero

[Waylander]

It is a massive gamble if I understand correctly and they need to win and hope that their international following can afford the tv coverage and merchandise to support the club.

Remember we are in some tricky economic times around the globe.

I think they will get through this season it will be next season if the tv revenues cannot be sustained thst we will see the fireworks. 

[SirBalon]

13 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Which fans fall into that group of the socios who get to elect the board? What's their relationship with the people that actually end up on the board? It's worth asking because between the last board and this board... I think I'd be pretty fucking annoyed with the people electing these people.

Because frankly, the last Barca board just seemed as inept as you can be. They had Messi and they spent money on Coutinho and Griezman... an absurd amount of money on them... both players who are best in the space that Messi typically occupies. Absolute waste of money. Then all the other transfers @Spike and @ScoRossjust detailed... it's just bad business where signings are made for the sake of making signings rather than having an actual plan for how to use those players to be brought in.

And then we've got Laporte back in control of the club... and I think he's done enough for where we can all say "I think he's more competent than Barto" - and yet he's making these risky decisions about the future of Barcelona that I think can come back to bite a club in the arse. Giving up a percentage of TV rights for 25 years locks in a price for whoever buys it... for 25 years where the TV money in La Liga is surely bound to go up. It's almost inevitably going to be a source of financial strain for Barca in the coming 25 years...

... and it only really pans out for as long as Barca can challenge for La Liga and the CL immediately - and I don't think that's necessarily a given for Barca. It could work out... but it could also be another financial issue that another Barca board have to deal with.

I don't necessarily think that's the best way to run a football club, kicking a serious problem down the road for someone else to deal with in the future... when it will no longer be your mess to clean up. And at this point... can we say that the socios won't just elect another board that'll do the same thing and kick the can down the road while mortgaging the club's future for the sake of it's present?

Seems like a vicious cycle where Barca can easily end up fucking themselves over for decades.

The rules on who could enter their name for club presidency were changed some years back and curiously he board that changed those rules were Joan Laporta’s board in his first tenure in charge

You have to be able to back up your candidacy with a deposit of €60m which if you win, you only get back when your tenure is over and the books are balanced. Obviously Bartomeu hasn’t been handed his deposit back. There are other changes but that’s one of the main ones that stopped regular socios from entering the race as could be done historically. Real Madrid also implemented such a rule in Florentino Pérez’ first tenure many years ago.

On the other hand any socio (member) can put their name forward to be on any board and the socios will vote on this, over 150,000 of them around the world.

As for all your other questions mate, it’s very complexed and I don’t know how to answer most of that since I stopped being so invested in the ins and outs for a couple of years. I’ve kind of fallen out of love with the sport by comparison to how I felt about it during the period I was away from this forum. I still follow it all, but not to every small detail.

All (or most) of the signings they’ve made as you, Spike and ScoRoss have pointed out have indeed been very questionable and mainly at fault for the current situation the club finds itself in financially. The remaining percentage are the wages which are absolutely off the scale but many clubs have found themselves in a similar situation (although not to this extent) in recent years like my own club, Arsenal.

The reason Joan Laporta won the previous elections to oust Bartomeu was because there were practically no candidates. The ones there were weren’t really committed and hardly campaigned due to the fact every socio knew the financial situation was chaotic... Had Laporta known the full details, I’m sure he would’ve withdrawn his candidacy. But you only know reality once you’re in there.

I was reading a great article by British journalist Graham Hunter on this very issue only two days ago and he breaks it all down immaculately. He knows what’s going down at that club because he knows them all from years back.

 

[SirBalon]

13 hours ago, Spike said:

Mate, I was typing out a thread for all the transfers that Barcelona has made since Guardiola, and I was sorting them into bad, great and too early to tell. It was too much work but the bad transfers were totalling at over one billion euros.

Here is what I found out via transfermarket

@SirBalon @Carnivore Chris could probably rate the transfers better than me, but IMO most were unnecessary.

 

There are sone signings on that list which are really difficult to analyse due to the fact they were bought when they were merely kids. But yeah, it’s mental and actual proof of how they moved away from bumping La Masia products as it had been historically on the main.

[SirBalon]

And for everyone reading here, Barça have announced the signing of Sevilla’s highly rated centre-back Koundé. You couldn’t write this shit.

What a mess!

They either win it all this season or we could be seeing the end of the club as we know it. It’ll definitely be owned and bought by an individual who wants it and is ready to sort out the humongous mess they’re in.

But it would be a very tasty acquisition where football trade marks are concerned. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by SirBalon