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Novichok in the UK: British citizen dies

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Breaking news over the last hour or so is that Dawn Sturgess has died from exposure to the nerve agent Novichok. Quite harrowing really. 

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Just now, Harvsky said:

Conspiracy theorists have been going into overdrive for a week.

Cold War rhetoric will be in full flow by tomorrow morning. 

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Squeeze the Oligarchs and keep them from their money or just sit by while Britain is Russia’s killing grounds & they shoot fucking commercial airliners from the air & invade other European countries.

“bUt GoNzO RuSsIa Is OuR fRiEnD, tHeRe Is No EvIdEnCe OtHeR tHaN tHe ThInGs YoU mEnTiOnEd”

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4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Squeeze the Oligarchs and keep them from their money or just sit by while Britain is Russia’s killing grounds & they shoot fucking commercial airliners from the air & invade other European countries.

“bUt GoNzO RuSsIa Is OuR fRiEnD, tHeRe Is No EvIdEnCe OtHeR tHaN tHe ThInGs YoU mEnTiOnEd”

I'll bite - what's the actual evidence that Russia is behind the poisoning of the Skripals and these two unlucky random Brits?

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1 minute ago, nudge said:

I'll bite - what's the actual evidence that Russia is behind the poisoning of the Skripals and these two unlucky random Brits?

I’ll admit it’s not like they’ve caught the Skripals would be assassin.

BUT who else would want a defected Russian spy to die & have their state media say “if you’re a traitor you’re not safe in the UK.”

Even if this is the unlikely non-Russian poisoning of a defected Russian spy the Oligarchs should still be kept from their money for: the invasion of Georgia & Crimea & shooting down a fucking airliner.

Also why does this shit keep happening in the UK? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russian-dissident-nikolai-glushkov-killed-on-day-of-court-hearing-ngwx603cz

If Russia’s not doing it then there really is some kind of grand conspiracy to make Russian leadership look like they’re mafia bosses. But I don’t think it’s a grand conspiracy, because this is how Putin has operated since he took power and he’s gotten more belligerent as he’s learned the West won’t/can’t effectively push back.

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It’s oft a truism that the simplest answer tends to be the right one between competing hypotheses. Who would have the most compelling motive? The UK who provided him asylum or Russia, who passed into law the right to kill traitors on foreign soil? Of course it’ll never be proved ... but again, Occam’s razor. 

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1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I’ll admit it’s not like they’ve caught the Skripals would be assassin.

BUT who else would want a defected Russian spy to die & have their state media say “if you’re a traitor you’re not safe in the UK.”

Even if this is the unlikely non-Russian poisoning of a defected Russian spy the Oligarchs should still be kept from their money for: the invasion of Georgia & Crimea & shooting down a fucking airliner.

Also why does this shit keep happening in the UK? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russian-dissident-nikolai-glushkov-killed-on-day-of-court-hearing-ngwx603cz

If Russia’s not doing it then there really is some kind of grand conspiracy to make Russian leadership look like they’re mafia bosses. But I don’t think it’s a grand conspiracy, because this is how Putin has operated since he took power and he’s gotten more belligerent as he’s learned the West won’t/can’t effectively push back.

I don't doubt Russia's (or any other country's, for that matter, but that's a different topic altogether) willingness and preparedness to conduct such acts at all, I well know what they are capable of. However, the amateurish nature of this hit and the timing looks very iffy (a highly irrelevant target, failure to kill, amateur disposal of the nerve agent, using a substance that will automatically be linked with Russia, risking further sanctions and international criticism, all before highly politicised World Cup are just a few things that don't make much sense), and what pisses me off is the fact of how this has been immediately declared a Russian job from the very start, based only on the assumption that there are allegedly no other plausible potential explanations. I feel that given current political climate, it's very dangerous and irresponsible to make such accusations (I'm talking about politicians/governments here) without having strong evidence; and it's even more annoying to see the public being fed misleading or incomplete information to form public opinion that supports government's official line; e.g. the claims that "Novichok" nerve agent can only be traced back to Russia (untrue, as Porton Down scientists were not able to identify the nerve agent as being of Russian manufacture; furthermore, Iran synthesized various strains of it back in 2016 and shared the spectral analysis with OPCW, and at least a few Western countries, including the UK and USA, have synthesized samples for research purposes at some point); or that they are the only ones with a motive (why not a rogue military operation, "freelance" hit, secret service operation of another country as some plausible alternatives?). What I'm saying is, it could be a Russian job - could well be something completely different though, and in my opinion, it's very unwise to assign blame without having a fucking clue what happened, and further destabilise political situation.

As for oligarchs and their money, fully agree.

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No sympathy for Russia getting blamed for this. There might be no evidence but when you've pulled as much bullshit as they have in recent years you can hardly complain about your reputation coming before you in the absence of any other viable suspects.

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>We can't give a proper response to foreign agents killing our citizens on our soil, because we're too busy damaging our economy and worsening the relationship to our western allies.

t. the UK

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On 11/07/2018 at 10:38, BartraPique1932 said:

>We can't give a proper response to foreign agents killing our citizens on our soil, because we're too busy damaging our economy and worsening the relationship to our western allies.

t. the UK

You’re obviously not aware how German Protectionism works in Europe under the guise of “EU partnership”. 

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17 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

You’re obviously not aware how German Protectionism works in Europe under the guise of “EU partnership”. 

How does it work, Einstein?

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On 13/07/2018 at 15:24, BartraPique1932 said:

How does it work, Einstein?

Lol are we really going to pretend that Germany doesn’t call the shots within the EU? 

For a start you massively benefit from the Euro, it’s a fixed exchange rate that between yourselves and your biggest export market. Any other scenario would have seen these gain offset by your own currency rise. 

If you’ve ever had the misfortune to work for a German firm like I have you will no doubt be aware of cherry picking and rampant protectionist policy. When times get tough German take the big accounts and “you shed the jobs” happened  3 times to me I won’t work for a German firm again. 

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On 14/07/2018 at 22:58, Fairy In Boots said:

Lol are we really going to pretend that Germany doesn’t call the shots within the EU? 

For a start you massively benefit from the Euro, it’s a fixed exchange rate that between yourselves and your biggest export market. Any other scenario would have seen these gain offset by your own currency rise. 

If you’ve ever had the misfortune to work for a German firm like I have you will no doubt be aware of cherry picking and rampant protectionist policy. When times get tough German take the big accounts and “you shed the jobs” happened  3 times to me I won’t work for a German firm again. 

Well, it's a good job we're taking our country back then!

Massive German employers like Siemens and BMW probably won't hang around in this husk of a trading nation when we leave the EU. Problem solved!!

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On 28/07/2018 at 03:16, StefBWFC said:

Well, it's a good job we're taking our country back then!

Massive German employers like Siemens and BMW probably won't hang around in this husk of a trading nation when we leave the EU. Problem solved!!

BMW have been asset stripping for years. You forget mate I live in the “husk”of Longbridge, BMW took what they wanted then they did the same at Land Rover took a government subsidie to build a site in north Birmingham which they heavily automated so very little staff, kept the mini marquee moved that to Cowley then moved all the brains out of Solihull (Land Rover) to Germany for the X5 then sold the “husk” of MGRover group because they’d had what they wanted. The Phoenix group they sold it to were a bunch of shysters intent on fleecing what was left of it to death. 20,000 local jobs gone overnight mate.  I grew up in that, lucky that younger staff found work at JLR and in influx of skilled labour helped them rapidly expand. If you were over 50 though you didn’t get work unless you were very lucky, my next door but one neighbour back then (at my moms which is longbridge Birmingham) was tossed on the scrap heap couldn’t find work, started drinking his wife left him and he hung himself within 18 months of its collapse. I’ve family in small mining villages up north I’m sure being a northern you know this is a scene replicated time and again sadly. 

 I know all about BMW’s investment in the U.K. BMW don’t give a fuck about British jobs they never have, they give a fuck about access to our market though as we buy a lot of their cars. 

I was working for a German owned firm when the crash hit in 2008, immediately the top 5 uk accounts of a U.K. firm 57 years old 3 generations brought 6 years previously by a German parent company told the M.D. those accounts are dealt with directly via Germany now you aged the jobs. 5 out of 12 of us went to the doll office that same day. I keep in touch with someone there they’ve not replaced the skilled engineers just sent German apprentices over to learn it and took that back to Germany now so it’s a 5 person box shifting firm now. 

I go to countless firms that are German owned and they can’t purchase in the U.K. because they must purchase via Germany. I get the same from Spanish and French firms to, just this week a French company I deal with instructed us that they have been told they must purchase via head office now as all components will be sourced via France from now on. 

I’m no white collar worker as you may have guessed I work in engineering and it’s a crying shame to watch the talent that we have get shafted again and again for continental protectionist policies. I’m very much pro U.K. manufacturing, I think our governments have shafted us to it’s not all the continentals fault they’re just taking advantage of our own nativity and open attitudes to it. I’d love British protectionism as all though mass manufacturing has gone and won’t return the potential to be world leaders in high tech manufacturing is very much a possibility, we just need our government to recognise it and protect it while it blossoms.

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3 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

BMW have been asset stripping for years. You forget mate I live in the “husk”of Longbridge, BMW took what they wanted then they did the same at Land Rover took a government subsidie to build a site in north Birmingham which they heavily automated so very little staff, kept the mini marquee moved that to Cowley then moved all the brains out of Solihull (Land Rover) to Germany for the X5 then sold the “husk” of MGRover group because they’d had what they wanted. The Phoenix group they sold it to were a bunch of shysters intent on fleecing what was left of it to death. 20,000 local jobs gone overnight mate.  I grew up in that, lucky that younger staff found work at JLR and in influx of skilled labour helped them rapidly expand. If you were over 50 though you didn’t get work unless you were very lucky, my next door but one neighbour back then (at my moms which is longbridge Birmingham) was tossed on the scrap heap couldn’t find work, started drinking his wife left him and he hung himself within 18 months of its collapse. I’ve family in small mining villages up north I’m sure being a northern you know this is a scene replicated time and again sadly. 

 I know all about BMW’s investment in the U.K. BMW don’t give a fuck about British jobs they never have, they give a fuck about access to our market though as we buy a lot of their cars. 

I was working for a German owned firm when the crash hit in 2008, immediately the top 5 uk accounts of a U.K. firm 57 years old 3 generations brought 6 years previously by a German parent company told the M.D. those accounts are dealt with directly via Germany now you aged the jobs. 5 out of 12 of us went to the doll office that same day. I keep in touch with someone there they’ve not replaced the skilled engineers just sent German apprentices over to learn it and took that back to Germany now so it’s a 5 person box shifting firm now. 

I go to countless firms that are German owned and they can’t purchase in the U.K. because they must purchase via Germany. I get the same from Spanish and French firms to, just this week a French company I deal with instructed us that they have been told they must purchase via head office now as all components will be sourced via France from now on. 

I’m no white collar worker as you may have guessed I work in engineering and it’s a crying shame to watch the talent that we have get shafted again and again for continental protectionist policies. I’m very much pro U.K. manufacturing, I think our governments have shafted us to it’s not all the continentals fault they’re just taking advantage of our own nativity and open attitudes to it. I’d love British protectionism as all though mass manufacturing has gone and won’t return the potential to be world leaders in high tech manufacturing is very much a possibility, we just need our government to recognise it and protect it while it blossoms.

Very insightful post mate :ay:

I know you're going to love this then judging by your final paragraph - FIB and Corbs sitting in a tree...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44925023

A Labour government would seek to ensure "we build things here that for too long have been built abroad", party leader Jeremy Corbyn has said.

He told the EEF manufacturers organisation that new train carriages, defence, NHS and new passports were areas where money was spent abroad.

Mr Corbyn also said he would end the "racket" of public sector outsourcing.

He said that on Brexit the UK needed a new customs union with the EU to avoid ending "in hock to Donald Trump".

Mr Corbyn, launching his Build it in Britain campaign in Birmingham, said: "For the last 40 years... we've been told that it's good - advanced even - for our country to manufacture less and less and rely instead on cheap labour abroad to produce imports, while we focus on the City of London and the finance sector. 

"A lack of support for manufacturing industry is sucking the dynamism out of our economy, pay from the pockets of our workers and any hope of secure, well-paid jobs from a generation of young people."

He added: "Labour is determined to see public contracts provide public benefit, using our money to nurture and grow our industries, our people and to expand our tax base."

Mr Corbyn said Labour would intervene to bring quality jobs to all regions, saying that his party would opt out of parts of world trade rules if necessary to ensure jobs went to local people, rather than sit back "and manage decline".

On Brexit, Mr Corbyn said the fall in the value of the pound as a result of Brexit had not provided the benefits to exporters it should have, because the Conservatives had "sold out" manufacturers.

He said the prime minister "and her warring Cabinet should think again, even at this late stage, and reconsider the option of negotiating a brand new customs union".

"This decision doesn't need to be a matter of ideology... it ought to be a matter of practical common sense."

Claims called 'laughable'

Otherwise a "botched" Brexit "will sell our manufacturers short with the fantasy of a free trading buccaneering future, which in reality would be a nightmare of our public services sold to multinational companies and our country in hock to Donald Trump, while we are all told to eat chlorinated chicken."

For the Conservatives, Robert Jenrick, exchequer secretary to the Treasury, said: "This is laughable coming from the Labour Party who oversaw millions of jobs lost and a record decline in manufacturing.

"We know from last time Labour don't know how to handle the economy and now their plan would mean higher prices for families and lower wages for workers. 

"Under the Conservatives, exports are up, there's more business investment, more manufacturing jobs and employment is at a record high - meaning more people have the security of a regular pay packet."

The Lib Dems Brexit spokesman Tom Brake accused Mr Corbyn of living in a world of "alternative facts" by talking about the benefits of Brexit, adding he was "laying the path for the Tories' chaotic Brexit".

Stephen Martin, director general of the Institute of Directors, called Mr Corbyn's plans "protectionism".

He said: "For all the criticism of America's current approach to trade in this speech, the proposals of subsidies and 'buying British' are just as protectionist as tariffs.

"Britain has many fantastic manufacturing firms, but the fetishisation of factories and production lines over all other parts of the economy is misguided. We should not be ashamed of our world-class creative, digital and professional services."

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13 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

BMW have been asset stripping for years. You forget mate I live in the “husk”of Longbridge, BMW took what they wanted then they did the same at Land Rover took a government subsidie to build a site in north Birmingham which they heavily automated so very little staff, kept the mini marquee moved that to Cowley then moved all the brains out of Solihull (Land Rover) to Germany for the X5 then sold the “husk” of MGRover group because they’d had what they wanted. The Phoenix group they sold it to were a bunch of shysters intent on fleecing what was left of it to death. 20,000 local jobs gone overnight mate.  I grew up in that, lucky that younger staff found work at JLR and in influx of skilled labour helped them rapidly expand. If you were over 50 though you didn’t get work unless you were very lucky, my next door but one neighbour back then (at my moms which is longbridge Birmingham) was tossed on the scrap heap couldn’t find work, started drinking his wife left him and he hung himself within 18 months of its collapse. I’ve family in small mining villages up north I’m sure being a northern you know this is a scene replicated time and again sadly. 

 I know all about BMW’s investment in the U.K. BMW don’t give a fuck about British jobs they never have, they give a fuck about access to our market though as we buy a lot of their cars. 

I was working for a German owned firm when the crash hit in 2008, immediately the top 5 uk accounts of a U.K. firm 57 years old 3 generations brought 6 years previously by a German parent company told the M.D. those accounts are dealt with directly via Germany now you aged the jobs. 5 out of 12 of us went to the doll office that same day. I keep in touch with someone there they’ve not replaced the skilled engineers just sent German apprentices over to learn it and took that back to Germany now so it’s a 5 person box shifting firm now. 

I go to countless firms that are German owned and they can’t purchase in the U.K. because they must purchase via Germany. I get the same from Spanish and French firms to, just this week a French company I deal with instructed us that they have been told they must purchase via head office now as all components will be sourced via France from now on. 

I’m no white collar worker as you may have guessed I work in engineering and it’s a crying shame to watch the talent that we have get shafted again and again for continental protectionist policies. I’m very much pro U.K. manufacturing, I think our governments have shafted us to it’s not all the continentals fault they’re just taking advantage of our own nativity and open attitudes to it. I’d love British protectionism as all though mass manufacturing has gone and won’t return the potential to be world leaders in high tech manufacturing is very much a possibility, we just need our government to recognise it and protect it while it blossoms. 

Hell of a post.

I was merely being flippant to fit my anti-Brexit stance, but I totally get your stance: German manufacturers' protectionism is shocking for our workforce. I think your point on our successive governments being so naive in this area rings especially true. 

I just worry, with 2019 looming, are we simply cutting off our nose to spite our face? Sure, ze Germans won't be able to benefit from total freedom of movement for their workforce, but then equally, if they ship out completely because of this, that's even more skilled manufacturing jobs gone, more people unemployed, more depression - it's a continuation of the sad story with your neighbour...

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2 hours ago, Harvsky said:

The two suspects went on Russian TV today and gave a hilariously bad series of alibi's

xD

Apparently it was to cold so they went back to Russia where it was minus 10 o.O

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39 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Apparently it was to cold so they went back to Russia where it was minus 10 o.O

My favourite bit is where one of them starts rattling off wikipedia facts about the Cathedral xD

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Another incident involving - although not substantiated - a Russian in Salisbury falling ill

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