The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[OrangeKhrush]

19 minutes ago, Stan said:

Australia are the biggest degenerates for reporting on something horrific that Hamas did?

What?

I'm so glad you didn't watch the video

[Stan]

20 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Even if you take away the fact that whenever Hamas acts out against Israel it leads to mass death in Gaza - there’s still a very strong argument that Gazans are still Hamas’s biggest victims.

The idea that Hamas are freedom fighters would have more weight if they didn’t rule Gaza like an oppressive totalitarian dictatorship.

They’re not freedom fighters, the people they rule over don’t have any freedom.

I don't disagree. Gazan civilians and Israeli civilians are the only ones that suffer in this battle. 

This is why I also can't get on board with the idea that those Gazans are 'complicit' because they don't stand up to such an oppressive regime...

 

8 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

I'm so glad you didn't watch the video

Why do you think Australia are degenerates, more so than America?

[OrangeKhrush]

18 hours ago, Michael said:

Having met both Israelis and Palestinians(in various European countries), I think that I can confidently say that there is a significant hardcore element, among both sides, that absolutely hate and despise the other. With that ingrained hate, it is hard to see if there will ever be a relatively peaceful solution to this ongoing conflict. 

There is a solution, Palastinians denouncing the actions of Hamas  and pushing back against them even if it meant losing their lives to remove their own oppressors.  Israel would probably support them in that fight and open dialogue to peace but sadly every Palastinians they bring onto MSM seem to support the jihad.

during ww2 Italian resistance fighters faught and died to win freedom from the fascist government

[OrangeKhrush]

3 minutes ago, Stan said:

I don't disagree. Gazan civilians and Israeli civilians are the only ones that suffer in this battle. 

This is why I also can't get on board with the idea that those Gazans are 'complicit' because they don't stand up to such an oppressive regime...

 

Why do you think Australia are degenerates, more so than America?

burn and gas the jews protesters, people going around looking for Jews etc etc all of it covered in the video.

 

 

[Azeem]

 

A reminder there is this third influential party (of lunatics) in this equation who want Jews to control all of Palestine so Jesus can come back and rapture can happen. They have been salivating over an Armageddon in Middle East.

[Cicero]

1 hour ago, OrangeKhrush said:

There is a solution, Palastinians denouncing the actions of Hamas  and pushing back against them even if it meant losing their lives to remove their own oppressors.  Israel would probably support them in that fight and open dialogue to peace but sadly every Palastinians they bring onto MSM seem to support the jihad.

during ww2 Italian resistance fighters faught and died to win freedom from the fascist government

Let's be realistic here. Why would Palestinians do that when despite all the atrocities, Hamas still has their best interest at heart in the liberation of their country? There's also no guarantee, likely a 0% chance, Israel will cease the oppression and return much of the Palestinian land back to them. There's also a negative % chance the IDF won't also stop their atrocities which continuously failed to be mentioned by western and European media. Israelis are always described as 'being murdered' whereas Palestinians just 'die'. 

 

 

[OrangeKhrush]

26 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Let's be realistic here. Why would Palestinians do that when despite all the atrocities, Hamas still has their best interest at heart in the liberation of their country? There's also no guarantee, likely a 0% chance, Israel will cease the oppression and return much of the Palestinian land back to them. There's also a negative % chance the IDF won't also stop their atrocities which continuously failed to be mentioned by western and European media. Israelis are always described as 'being murdered' whereas Palestinians just 'die'. 

 

 

if Hamas has their interests at heart then they will get just deserts, mutilating babies is not a cause worth fighting for.   Israel has engages in over 10 ceasefire and negotiations but it always ends up in back stabs.

I would agree with you that at least 8 of 10 Palastinians want all Jews dead and that sentiment will end them.

they knowingly allow and reciprocate Hamas, they stash weapons, they look after Hamas operatives ergo not civilians but militants.

from a south African perspective apartheid did not end by military wins, in military conflict it was a bloodbath, apartheid ended by change of attitudes and discourse, the Israeli/Palastinian situation can be resolved peacefully

[Stan]

8 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

they knowingly allow and reciprocate Hamas

I think what you think they can do, and what they actually can do, is starkly different.

9 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

, the Israeli/Palastinian situation can be resolved peacefully

This is obviously the hope, but it also leans on the leaders of both sides to show a bit of leeway to allow this to even be considered. Currently, it's rockets vs rockets, you flatten this building, we'll flatten that one. Oh and cut off the supply of food, fuel, water, energy etc to where you live. 

I get the sense you want everything to be done on the Palestinian civilians side, but don't see you calling for Israeli civilians to 'rise up' against their government too. Does that make them complicit in the murder of any Palestinian civilians, too?

[6666]

8 hours ago, Stan said:

What about focusing on an organisation that kills babies, decapitates children and rapes women?

Why can't the focus be on both?

You mentioning the Israeli military or Hamas? Hard to tell...

The difference is that Israel has all the power and has been terrorising Palestine for decades. Hamas is born out of that. Israel are the main culprits here. You can focus on both but putting more blame at the feet of Hamas than Israel is where most are misrepresenting the issues. Especially the mainstream media. The US news media and US politicians specifically are embarrassing.

 

[Michael]

UK government buildings are flying the Israeli flag, in response to the massacre that happened a few days ago. I wonder if these same buildings will also be flying the Palestinian flags, after the Israeli bombardment of Gaza and the killings of hundreds of innocent Palestinian civilians?

[Cicero]

1 hour ago, OrangeKhrush said:

they knowingly allow and reciprocate Hamas, 

Which is why I found your 'solution' to be incredibly naive. Why don't you put any accountability on the Israeli civilians and the atrocities the IDF and their government commit? 

Israeli-Palestinian conflict: 96% of deaths since 2005 have been Palestinian, according to UN data

[Stan]

13 minutes ago, Michael said:

UK government buildings are flying the Israeli flag, in response to the massacre that happened a few days ago. I wonder if these same buildings will also be flying the Palestinian flags, after the Israeli bombardment of Gaza and the killings of hundreds of innocent Palestinian civilians?

No. They fully back Israel and are supporting Israel against Hamas. 

Sadly, that means they support Israel against innocent Palestinian civilians because they, along with Israeli civilians in retaliatory attacks, are the ones that actually suffer. 

[Michael]

4 minutes ago, Stan said:

No. They fully back Israel and are supporting Israel against Hamas. 

Sadly, that means they support Israel against innocent Palestinian civilians because they, along with Israeli civilians in retaliatory attacks, are the ones that actually suffer. 

Well, this is my point. They should be showing solidarity with both the Israeli innocent victims and the Palestinian innocent victims, if they want to be consistent. Both Hamas and the Israeli government have committed atrocities. The best solution would be not to fly any of their flags at all, and to get on with implementing a fair and balanced foreign policy. 

[Cicero]

1 minute ago, Michael said:

Well, this is my point. They should be showing solidarity with both the Israeli innocent victims and the Palestinian innocent victims, if they want to be consistent. Both Hamas and the Israeli government have committed atrocities. The best solution would be not to fly any of their flags at all, and to get on with implementing a fair and balanced foreign policy. 

The US and EU have already dug themselves into a hole. Immediately showing support to a country in their battle against Hamas which only means mass genocide where 60% of the Palestinian casualties so far have been women and children.

As long as Hamas is gone though!

[MUFC]

 

[OrangeKhrush]

3 hours ago, MUFC said:

 

it wouldn't be the first time CNN faked things,  i remember the good old days when they were reliable, when they had boots on ground reports from Kosovo,  those days are long gone. 

[OrangeKhrush]

The dead gunmen were found with American weapons,  i wonder if these are the left over guns in Afghanistan or Ukraine selling black market weapons because they got more guns than soldiers to use them,  and they get to beg for more. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

6 hours ago, Cicero said:

Let's be realistic here. Why would Palestinians do that when despite all the atrocities, Hamas still has their best interest at heart in the liberation of their country? There's also no guarantee, likely a 0% chance, Israel will cease the oppression and return much of the Palestinian land back to them. There's also a negative % chance the IDF won't also stop their atrocities which continuously failed to be mentioned by western and European media. Israelis are always described as 'being murdered' whereas Palestinians just 'die'. 

I just don't see how anyone can say, with a straight face, that Hamas has their best interests at heart. Their leadership doesn't even live in Gaza with the rest of Hamas and the Palestinians they're ruling over. They live in luxury in Qatar, not in squalor with the rest of Gaza. As the government of Gaza, they've deliberately neglected re-building and improving Gaza's infrastructure - because the imagery of a destitute Gaza city lends itself to public sympathy for Palestinians. They arrest and kill people (and their families) for speaking out against Hamas, wanting more rights and political freedoms. And any time they lash out at Israel, the people of Gaza pay a heavy price.

I agree with you, there's basically a 0% chance Israel will cease the oppression and return to the UN approved borders of 1967 - and an even lower chance of the IDF stopping their atrocities. Why would they stop them when they constantly get away with them? They killed an American-Palestinian journalist, who wasn't even Muslim, that was immensely popular... and nothing happened. If they can do that to a high profile American... they'll get away with doing much worse to far more people that aren't famous and don't have passports that would typically lend themselves to getting some sort of special treatment in many countries. But all of that being true doesn't suddenly make Hamas having their best interest at heart.

I think Israeli leadership since 1995 has been appalling. And I don't think it should be forgotten how Rabin, their PM who was in support of the Oslo Accords, was disparaged personally by Netanyahu, his party, and other right-wing Israelis. They'd organise rallies where Rabin was dressed in an SS officer, Hitler, and often had posters of him looking like he's in the crosshairs of a gun. Netanyahu himself led a mock funeral procession for Rabin and people at this fake funeral were chanting "death to Rabin" - when Netanyahu was alerted to potential threats to Rabin's life and asked to tone the rhetoric down, he refused. Rabin was assassinated shortly thereafter. Imo Netanyahu bears a lot of the blame for the assassination and for Israel's abandonment of the Oslo Accords.

Israel is a democracy and I think it is a massive shame on their democracy that: 1.) Netanyahu would win the PM job about a year after Rabin's assassination, 2.) that Netanyahu would hold onto power for so long and do so much to subvert any sort of chance for meaningful peace, 3.) that Netanyahu was able to gain reelection despite having serious corruption charges leveled against him. Even still, I don't think that means that Hamas has a blank cheque to lash out and kill Israeli civilians - especially children, what do children have to do with the current political climate of anything?

Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, and Israel's government since the mid-90s are all guilty of wrongdoing and getting in the way of any sort of meaningful and lasting peace. They're all awful human rights abusers. Israel is a democracy, so their voters do shoulder a lot of the burden tbh - but that doesn't excuse the crimes of Palestinian leadership either. The Palestinian Authority, in particular, maintaining their "martyrs fund" is a particular disgrace that does nothing to make any meaningful step towards peace, but instead encourages desperate people to murder so their families can have a bit more comfort.

When leadership on neither side is willing to change from the status quo, it's just a recipe for this cycle of violence to carry on and on and on for eternity.

[OrangeKhrush]

when hamas/Palastinians say end the occupation what they really mean is that;  1) Israel cease to exist and 2) all Jews be killed it's in their covenant plain for all to see.

peace can only happen when Palastinians renounce PLO, Hamas etc and resist it, if they don't they are complicit.  

this notion of Israel indiscriminantly attacking Palastine is unfounded, it's almost always a reciprocation to violence.   Israel is bombarded by 10000+ rocket and missile strikes a year, those are funded by America and Iran, the money that should be used to better Palastinians lives is used for war machines.

Palastinians know where Hamas operate and I will accept they even help them, the using of civilian buildings as military outposts is purposely done to cry wolf when Israel takes out military installations, there is no civilislzed nation that uses hospitals and schools as military outposts.

if israel put down their guns, they will be slaughtered to the last man, if Hamas put down their guns, not a single Israel LGB will be dropped, artillery will go silent and Palastinians will not hear from Israel again.   the real issue here and solution is Hamas

from an Israeli perspective, there are issues from a political standpoint and that is for the people to resolve, but it is not a situation in this conflict, in 2012 Netanyahu proposed the session of large parts of northern Israel to the west bank which was rejected.   Palastine is not interested in land disputes, they want eradication of Jews, they don't refer to Israelis as such but as Jews.  

Palastine wants a one state treaty which is just another way of saying Israelis must give up to oppression.   there are over 1bn Arabs and only 15m Jews, open borders will end up in Jewish people being subjugated by Islamic people.   it's not a option.  the only option is a formal acceptance of territorial lines, these be proclaimated and Palastine goes and does Palastine and Israel goes and does Israel.

another non negotiable is this idea that Israel must just let people from Gaza and west bank into Israel,  that is just stupid and we all know why Israel has strict border control and only well vetted Palastinians are permitted to enter, this open border bullshit needs to stop.

[OrangeKhrush]

16 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I just don't see how anyone can say, with a straight face, that Hamas has their best interests at heart. Their leadership doesn't even live in Gaza with the rest of Hamas and the Palestinians they're ruling over. They live in luxury in Qatar, not in squalor with the rest of Gaza. As the government of Gaza, they've deliberately neglected re-building and improving Gaza's infrastructure - because the imagery of a destitute Gaza city lends itself to public sympathy for Palestinians. They arrest and kill people (and their families) for speaking out against Hamas, wanting more rights and political freedoms. And any time they lash out at Israel, the people of Gaza pay a heavy price.

I agree with you, there's basically a 0% chance Israel will cease the oppression and return to the UN approved borders of 1967 - and an even lower chance of the IDF stopping their atrocities. Why would they stop them when they constantly get away with them? They killed an American-Palestinian journalist, who wasn't even Muslim, that was immensely popular... and nothing happened. If they can do that to a high profile American... they'll get away with doing much worse to far more people that aren't famous and don't have passports that would typically lend themselves to getting some sort of special treatment in many countries. But all of that being true doesn't suddenly make Hamas having their best interest at heart.

I think Israeli leadership since 1995 has been appalling. And I don't think it should be forgotten how Rabin, their PM who was in support of the Oslo Accords, was disparaged personally by Netanyahu, his party, and other right-wing Israelis. They'd organise rallies where Rabin was dressed in an SS officer, Hitler, and often had posters of him looking like he's in the crosshairs of a gun. Netanyahu himself led a mock funeral procession for Rabin and people at this fake funeral were chanting "death to Rabin" - when Netanyahu was alerted to potential threats to Rabin's life and asked to tone the rhetoric down, he refused. Rabin was assassinated shortly thereafter. Imo Netanyahu bears a lot of the blame for the assassination and for Israel's abandonment of the Oslo Accords.

Israel is a democracy and I think it is a massive shame on their democracy that: 1.) Netanyahu would win the PM job about a year after Rabin's assassination, 2.) that Netanyahu would hold onto power for so long and do so much to subvert any sort of chance for meaningful peace, 3.) that Netanyahu was able to gain reelection despite having serious corruption charges leveled against him. Even still, I don't think that means that Hamas has a blank cheque to lash out and kill Israeli civilians - especially children, what do children have to do with the current political climate of anything?

Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, and Israel's government since the mid-90s are all guilty of wrongdoing and getting in the way of any sort of meaningful and lasting peace. They're all awful human rights abusers. Israel is a democracy, so their voters do shoulder a lot of the burden tbh - but that doesn't excuse the crimes of Palestinian leadership either. The Palestinian Authority, in particular, maintaining their "martyrs fund" is a particular disgrace that does nothing to make any meaningful step towards peace, but instead encourages desperate people to murder so their families can have a bit more comfort.

When leadership on neither side is willing to change from the status quo, it's just a recipe for this cycle of violence to carry on and on and on for eternity.

i will agree that hamas is not acting in tbe interest of palastine but they have a massive zealotry.   What I will guarantee is of Palastinians fought their oppressors and Hamas do Hamas things like killing their own again, Israel would support those people, because they would reflect the true ideals of peace.  Sadly there is little to no evidence of opposition.

it's time for bravery and conviction and the Palastinians that want peace to fight for it.  if they are persecuted by Hamas, Israel will attack Hamas without compunction.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Egypt seems to have given Israel a warning about the attack 3 days before it happened. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

30 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

i will agree that hamas is not acting in tbe interest of palastine but they have a massive zealotry.   What I will guarantee is of Palastinians fought their oppressors and Hamas do Hamas things like killing their own again, Israel would support those people, because they would reflect the true ideals of peace.  Sadly there is little to no evidence of opposition.

it's time for bravery and conviction and the Palastinians that want peace to fight for it.  if they are persecuted by Hamas, Israel will attack Hamas without compunction.

More than half of Gaza’s population is children and Hamas have all the guns, what exactly do you expect them to do?

[Stan]

1 hour ago, OrangeKhrush said:

peace can only happen when Palastinians renounce PLO, Hamas etc and resist it, if they don't they are complicit.  

Please stop peddling this bullshit. 

1 hour ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Israel is bombarded by 10000+ rocket and missile strikes a year, those are funded by America and Iran, the money that should be used to better Palastinians lives is used for war machines.

So America and Israel are best buddies, but America funds the bombing of their 'ally'? Are you sure?

What about the rockets that Gaza has been obliterated by, from Israel, over the years? You act like it's all one-sided and Israel are blame-free. 

 

[Mel81x+]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Egypt seems to have given Israel a warning about the attack 3 days before it happened. 

Thought this was disputed as false and even if they were given the intel, it really does give them an open invitation to retaliate which they'd definitely use to their benefit. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

34 minutes ago, Mel81x said:

Thought this was disputed as false and even if they were given the intel, it really does give them an open invitation to retaliate which they'd definitely use to their benefit. 

After it was disputed as false, senior US officials seemed to confirm it as true. But now Egypt and Israel have made statements both denying it. So maybe the US officials are just getting shit info. They were pretty spot on about Russia though while Russia was denying preparing for an invasion of Ukraine.

It seems like the war declaration also prevents any senior Israeli government positions from being vacated, including a Prime Minister under current criminal investigation who's seen his popularity plummet after the biggest loss of civilian life in Israel in decades - that only has his job currently because of a fragile coalition that just a few MPs could trigger a special election.

If I were conspiratorial, I'd think this is just a vile power grab, where loss of life on both sides is just being used for shitty political purposes.

On the other hand, whoever came up with the saying of things often being attributed to malice when it's really just incompetence has proven themselves to be right a lot of times in the history of humanity. And I don't want to believe that anyone's power hungry enough to allow something that horrible to ever happen just for politics. And the security failure is probably just due to a lot of things that possibly should have been red flags (like the reports that Israeli intelligence had noticed that Hamas's electronic communications had suddenly become way more sparse) about what was going on in Gaza just got ignored.