The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[Honey Honey]

On 18/11/2023 at 06:04, MUFC said:

Generally Israel and the Western media has been using the bullshit tactics for years. Last year when they attacked Gaza it was a real turning point. With soical media literally everything they said was being debunked. Last year in Gaza and this current situation in Gaza, they really have lost the so called propaganda war. They've used the media as their strongest tool for years but I feel with social media the tide has now turned. So many people who usally sit on the fence or even side with Israel have now gone against them. The video which Stan just posted above really is a first. For the BBC to say this against Israel, this is unheard off.

Who knows, in the future maybe Israel will use AI to brainwash the masses again.

Anecdotal? Social media bubble?

Yogov tracker has siding with Palestine in the UK at 19%. It was 23% in May. 15% after the October attacks.

Siding with Israel has gone from 10% to 19%.

Sitting on the fence has rocketed from 19% to 30% as people move out of the "don't know" category thanks to popular attention.

In any intellectual space I don't think you can pick a side and not be easily made to look sketchy. The easy opt out to protect perceptions of judgment is to sit on the fence because this issue is way too booby -trapped.

[Dr. Gonzo]

14 hours ago, Honey Honey said:

Anecdotal? Social media bubble?

Yogov tracker has siding with Palestine in the UK at 19%. It was 23% in May. 15% after the October attacks.

Siding with Israel has gone from 10% to 19%.

Sitting on the fence has rocketed from 19% to 30% as people move out of the "don't know" category thanks to popular attention.

In any intellectual space I don't think you can pick a side and not be easily made to look sketchy. The easy opt out to protect perceptions of judgment is to sit on the fence because this issue is way too booby -trapped.

I’m hesitant to take a side because I think both sides are bad actors at the leadership level. Picking a side here, to me at least, feels like supporting one form of genocide over the other tbh. Or picking antisemitism vs Islamophobia.

I don’t want to support genocide. I don’t want to stand alongside antisemites or Islamophobes. I want innocent Palestinians and innocent Israelis to live normal lives in peace.

[MUFC]

 

[Cicero]

Scream star Melissa Barrera sacked from the Scream franchise for her social media posts shedding light on what was currently happening in Gaza. Production company called it anti-sematic because she was making false references to genocide....

Jenna Ortega set to leave the franchise as well because of Melissa's sacking. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

37 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Scream star Melissa Barrera sacked from the Scream franchise for her social media posts shedding light on what was currently happening in Gaza. Production company called it anti-sematic because she was making false references to genocide....

Jenna Ortega set to leave the franchise as well because of Melissa's sacking. 

Her statements are so bland and tame and very far from antisemitic - it's the US so I think if I'm her, I'd sue for defamation. Calling someone antisemitic publicly is hugely damaging to someone's reputation, especially when sacking them for it. According to some screenshots of her instagram stories... they're pretty blatantly not antisemitic and are just generally pro-peace and anti-war anti-human suffering.

I think zionists are doing a disservice to the worldwide battle against antisemitism by blindly tarring so many people as antisemitic for questioning the way they're going about dealing with Palestinians. It takes meaning away from the word when real antisemites say and do antisemitic things when it's just used as a blanket response to criticism about how Israel's government operates. It's like the boy who cried wolf, if you aren't going to be serious about a serious word and accusation... sooner or later people won't ever take the accusation seriously.

This cycle of violence is only going to end when the party with the position of power breaks the cycle of violence. Otherwise the extremists of both sides keep feeding the extremism of the other side. From an Israeli perspective, I understand it is hard to want to break the cycle of violence against a group of people that are technically governed (although at the same time, Hamas does not act like a government and treats the people of Gaza like hostages) by a group that has put the death of all Jews worldwide as a goal in its charter. But from a Palestinian perspective, how do you make peace with a government that has demonstrated to you throughout your entire life that you aren't viewed as human.

But peace was never going to come after the savagery of the attacks on October 7 - Israel's government is a collection of extremists. How do extremists respond to extreme attacks? With extreme attacks of their own. And honestly, I don't think there's any room for Hamas in a future for a better life for the people of Gaza. Hamas isn't concerned with governing, it's not concerned with civilian life - it's concerned with its holy war. But if the IDF can take out Hamas... what comes next? 

What happens in the aftermath of this war is going to be a pivotal moment for Palestinians and Israelis. Serious work needs to be put in to combat extremism - both Israeli extremism and Palestinian extremism. And unfortunately, the way Isreal's approached this war has just made it more likely another generation of Gaza grows up with justifiable anger and resentment towards Israel that leads to more and more extremists.

[Bluebird Hewitt]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Her statements are so bland and tame and very far from antisemitic - it's the US so I think if I'm her, I'd sue for defamation. Calling someone antisemitic publicly is hugely damaging to someone's reputation, especially when sacking them for it. According to some screenshots of her instagram stories... they're pretty blatantly not antisemitic and are just generally pro-peace and anti-war anti-human suffering.

Probably being stupid here, but isn't there a fair bit of a Jewish presence in Hollywood?

Just thinking any actor or actress that mentions anything like this (even when it isn't antisemetic) is going to be classed as antisemitic in their eyes straight away, regardless of what's posted.

[Dr. Gonzo]

9 minutes ago, Bluebird Hewitt said:

Probably being stupid here, but isn't there a fair bit of a Jewish presence in Hollywood?

Just thinking any actor or actress that mentions anything like this (even when it isn't antisemetic) is going to be classed as antisemitic in their eyes straight away, regardless of what's posted.

I think so, but I'm not sure how true it is vs how much of it is a "Jews control the media stereotype." And while there may be a disproportionate number of Jews in the media, I'm not sure we can say they control it - it's not like Mel Gibson hasn't had a successful career in Hollywood.

Having seen screenshots of what she's posted - I don't know how anyone can seriously say she's an antisemite. She didn't disparage Jewish people - just a wish for peace and recognition of Palestinian human rights, all while wishing continued safety towards Jewish people.

I just think it's dangerous the way the word antisemite is being used. It takes away meaning from the word when it's used to silence people who aren't being antisemitic but vehemently disagree with Israeli policies. If society gets numb to accusations of antisemitism because the word is thrown around too much... then when it's used to describe people or actions that actually are antisemitic, there's a risk that people aren't going to take those instances seriously.

It's also massively unfair to tarnish someone's reputation with false claims of antisemitism just because they disagree with the idea of collective punishment of all of Gaza as an effective means of bringing about peace.

Going besides the point, I think the claims that the BDS movement is antisemitic because it "singles out Israel, while ignoring other geopolitical issues" is a bit ridiculous. All boycotts single out whatever is being boycotted and put their focus on that political issue while ignoring others. Sanctions on countries single out the actions of that government while ignoring other political issues. The boycott is calling on change in Israeli policies and a call to sanction Israel until it respects the human rights of Palestinians.

[MUFC]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think so, but I'm not sure how true it is vs how much of it is a "Jews control the media stereotype." And while there may be a disproportionate number of Jews in the media, I'm not sure we can say they control it - it's not like Mel Gibson hasn't had a successful career in Hollywood.

Having seen screenshots of what she's posted - I don't know how anyone can seriously say she's an antisemite. She didn't disparage Jewish people - just a wish for peace and recognition of Palestinian human rights, all while wishing continued safety towards Jewish people.

I just think it's dangerous the way the word antisemite is being used. It takes away meaning from the word when it's used to silence people who aren't being antisemitic but vehemently disagree with Israeli policies. If society gets numb to accusations of antisemitism because the word is thrown around too much... then when it's used to describe people or actions that actually are antisemitic, there's a risk that people aren't going to take those instances seriously.

It's also massively unfair to tarnish someone's reputation with false claims of antisemitism just because they disagree with the idea of collective punishment of all of Gaza as an effective means of bringing about peace.

Going besides the point, I think the claims that the BDS movement is antisemitic because it "singles out Israel, while ignoring other geopolitical issues" is a bit ridiculous. All boycotts single out whatever is being boycotted and put their focus on that political issue while ignoring others. Sanctions on countries single out the actions of that government while ignoring other political issues. The boycott is calling on change in Israeli policies and a call to sanction Israel until it respects the human rights of Palestinians.

I think I've watched the first 4 screams. Not sure how many there are after that. I may have watched the 5th. I'd watch 7 if she was in it lol.

[6666]

Both sides releasing hostages. The hostages that Israel are releasing are being called "detainees" or "prisoners" though. Keeping people locked up for no good reason for years, including kids, is completely fine and doing it to extremely regularly to hundreds of Palestinians is completely fine because Israel.

Can only assume Israel went along with it because they're gonna end up killing the Palestinian hostages they released anyway. The humanitarian "let's take a little break from genociding" pause lasted about an hour before an IDF dickhead opened fire on innocents.

Israel being scum isn't a difficult drum to beat. The issue is that the AIPAC politicians and their allies around the world really don't care so Israel being scum doesn't really matter. They'll just continue doing what they do.

[Azeem]

I see Judaism as a class indicator in America (at least in upper echelons of society) not some strict ethno-religious group. Marry into one or convert and you are part of the club like Trump's daughter did. 

[Stan]

More reports from hostages held by Hamas have spoken about good conditions, being fed well and given medicine if Hamas had it. 

[MUFC]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

More reports from hostages held by Hamas have spoken about good conditions, being fed well and given medicine if Hamas had it. 

Stories that Israeli PM have told the released hostages to keep their mouths shut.

[Dr. Gonzo]

What's up with the BBC?

Between this and their tacit support of the IRI on BBC Persia, makes me really wonder what the fuck is going on with the BBC's middle eastern coverage.

[Honey Honey]

53 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

What's up with the BBC?

Between this and their tacit support of the IRI on BBC Persia, makes me really wonder what the fuck is going on with the BBC's middle eastern coverage.

The BBC have said it was an error in the editing process. We now also know she did mention Hamas but in the extended interview and not in the clip the BBC used.

Some bad stuff is in the first version by the BBC, so it's not a complete whitewash. An editing error is plausible.

[OrangeKhrush]

11 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

What's up with the BBC?

Between this and their tacit support of the IRI on BBC Persia, makes me really wonder what the fuck is going on with the BBC's middle eastern coverage.

because they don't lie?

 

[OrangeKhrush]

it looks like the US is positioning multiple carrier fleets with a threat of war with Iran and their allies looking likely.

The IAF reported engagements with the Iranians but Iran is not prepared to get into an air war with the vastly more sophisticated IAF.

 

[OrangeKhrush]

10 hours ago, Honey Honey said:

The BBC have said it was an error in the editing process. We now also know she did mention Hamas but in the extended interview and not in the clip the BBC used.

Some bad stuff is in the first version by the BBC, so it's not a complete whitewash. An editing error is plausible.

The BBC has had to apologise three times now for lying, they keep blaming translation or editing but the reality is the BBC are there to damage reputation with lies.

they reported Israel was targeting doctors at Al Shifa, but in reality they sent specialists to help evacuate and transfer patients to within Israel's borders.

 

[Stan]

25 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

because they don't lie?

The post you quoted shows evidence that they fabricated quotes though to paint a different picture? 

[OrangeKhrush]

2 minutes ago, Stan said:

The post you quoted shows evidence that they fabricated quotes though to paint a different picture? 

when the person in question looks so healthy but apparently was so neglected.   she was apparently left to die.  

it's all PR spin, what you never see is the refugee camps protected by the IDF, corridors protected by the IDF and how these refugees are treated well, the most sick or injured get evac to Israeli hospitals with their families, that never gets reported on by any left leaning mainstream source.

what also is ignored is that tunnels are now found and shown linking networks to schools, hospitals, this removes the protection of these facilities.   Al Shifa has also not been hit by any ordinance, a Hamas ballistic hit the parking lot but the building itself is fine.

The US have through official communique confirmed weapons and weapon making equipment in these tunnels to infer it has military function.  This would mean international laws will not apply.

the only solution is Israel to eliminate Hamas and the US steps in like Iraq and Afghanistan to oversee a legitimate government voted by Palastinians without threat of a gun, the US stay there until the government is functional and can protect itself from HAMAS, Fattah, PLO, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and other terror groups within the territory.  Palastine will then be declared a state and must sign up to the UN no negotiation on this, they will be subject to UN compliance which includes a UN inspection into terror related activities and arms deals etc.

A new recognition agreement is also needed that allows Israel full military control of the heights and to have military bases in the west bank to protect missle defence arrays which are crucial to depth of defence from inbound cruise missiles, these missiles protection systems also protect Palastinians from say Iran deeming them surplus to requirements, I think it's a very fair compromise for lasting peace.

[Stan]

25 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

what also is ignored is that tunnels are now found and shown linking networks to schools, hospitals, this removes the protection of these facilities.

Where?

26 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

the only solution is Israel to eliminate Hamas and the US steps in like Iraq and Afghanistan to oversee a legitimate government voted by Palastinians without threat of a gun, the US stay there until the government is functional and can protect itself from HAMAS, Fattah, PLO, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and other terror groups within the territory.  Palastine will then be declared a state and must sign up to the UN no negotiation on this, they will be subject to UN compliance which includes a UN inspection into terror related activities and arms deals etc.

And that has worked previously in other Middle East/Arab countries has it? 

Can you really, honestly and truly, see this happening?

26 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

A new recognition agreement is also needed that allows Israel full military control of the heights and to have military bases in the west bank to protect missle defence arrays which are crucial to depth of defence from inbound cruise missiles, these missiles protection systems also protect Palastinians from say Iran deeming them surplus to requirements, I think it's a very fair compromise for lasting peace.

Why do Palestinians have to be governed by Israel? How would that be fair when those civilians and their families have been bombed relentlessly by Israel themselves? Do you think Palestinians will just give over control of their lives to their enemy just like that? 'Missile protection systems to protect Palestinians' immediately after using missiles to bomb the shit out of them? 

You think it's a fair compromise because you're very pro-Israel and it's heavily favoured in that way. 

[OrangeKhrush]

3 minutes ago, Stan said:

Where?

And that has worked previously in other Middle East/Arab countries has it? 

Can you really, honestly and truly, see this happening?

Why do Palestinians have to be governed by Israel? How would that be fair when those civilians and their families have been bombed relentlessly by Israel themselves? Do you think Palestinians will just give over control of their lives to their enemy just like that? 'Missile protection systems to protect Palestinians' immediately after using missiles to bomb the shit out of them? 

You think it's a fair compromise because you're very pro-Israel and it's heavily favoured in that way. 

It is a problem but if Palastine is to earn trust then they have to give a little, if a new democratically elected government comes in, in sure they would have peace and prosperity with Israel as a priority.  

Israel would not govern Palastine, Palastine will govern Palastine under the protectorate of the US.   

as for military bases and missile intercept arrays in the west bank serves Israeli and Palastinians interests.   The border of Israel and the west bank leaves Israel vulnerable to missile attacks cutting off the north from the south as well as leaving Tel Aviv vulnerable to saturation fire which could end in high levels of fatalities.   Israel has built up it's missile defence arrays in the west bank and heights to ensure depth of defence, as a condition of peace these must stay.   If Palastine was to truly seek peace they would not oppose it as they will become enemies to the Islamic brotherhood who may launch at the west bank, ergo having these defences protects Palastinians as much as it would Israelis.

[MUFC]

 

[Carnivore Chris]

On 27/11/2023 at 08:01, Stan said:

More reports from hostages held by Hamas have spoken about good conditions, being fed well and given medicine if Hamas had it. 

What about the 4 year old girl who saw her parents killed before her eyes, before then being held captive?

 

 

[Stan]

2 minutes ago, Carnivore Chris said:

What about the 4 year old girl who saw her parents killed before her eyes, before then being held captive?

 

 

Tragic and terrible of course. And that goes for every death in this war or any child caught up in this. Blanket statement I know, and I have sympathy for any innocent person caught up in this either in Israel or Palestine no matter how young or old.

Don't get me wrong, I am no apologist for Hamas and have absolutely no sympathy for anyone connected with them. Please don't take my post you've quoted as a sign or indication of support for Hamas. Far from it and I'd like to think you would know me better than that?

It just goes against the narrative that hostages held by Hamas are being totally neglected and living in squalor or being left to die without any care etc. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 hours ago, Stan said:

It just goes against the narrative that hostages held by Hamas are being totally neglected and living in squalor or being left to die without any care etc. 

The irony in Hamas giving more care and attention to Israelis they've kidnapped than the people they're meant to be governing. Although the people of Gaza are just a convenient shield for them - whereas these hostages are a bargaining chip they can use to stay alive a bit longer.