England 5-3 Kosovo - Tuesday 10th September, 2019

[Dr. Gonzo]

9 minutes ago, Dan said:

The problem there is this falls to bits when you let non-performers like Barkley start. It undermines the idea it's a meritocracy.

It's a tough balance between a meritocracy and keeping a cohesive team together though. Yes, Barkley's been average at best I'd say... but he's also familiar with Southgate's system compared to both Mount and Maddison. And at the end of the day, yeah it's Kosovo... but it's still a competitive match. And in a sense, you could argue that what Southgate's done is blend meritocracy with keeping squad cohesion in place - Barkley, as someone who's been in more England squads, you could argue is more worthy of starting than players who weren't called up in previous years.

Obviously not the same type of example, because Klose is probably considered a Germany legend, but there were many years where you could argue that on merit Klose should not have been the starting striker for Germany. But Germany also was keeping a cohesive side together that understood the same system and Klose fit it really well. I don't blame Southgate for trying the same thing.

I think the problem is, though, that Barkley hasn't really kicked on at the club or international level. So I can understand wanting to see the likes of Mount or Maddison in his place. And to his credit, I think Mount made the most of his recent England cameos - and I think will have usurped Barkley at Chelsea and England not to soon. A bit shit for Maddison though that Mount is coming through though. 

[Danny]

21 minutes ago, Dan said:

The most bizarre bit for me is we did this with a relatively negative midfield. If we'd gone say, Rice - Maddison - Mount you would understand a 5-3, but that one?

Keane and Maguire both have an error in them. Neither are that commanding either. We lack a real defensive organiser as well as a controlling midfield player.

Rice has such a heavy first touch, don’t see the benefit of him and Henderson against Kosovo and Bulgaria

[Dan+]

37 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It's a tough balance between a meritocracy and keeping a cohesive team together though. Yes, Barkley's been average at best I'd say... but he's also familiar with Southgate's system compared to both Mount and Maddison. And at the end of the day, yeah it's Kosovo... but it's still a competitive match. And in a sense, you could argue that what Southgate's done is blend meritocracy with keeping squad cohesion in place - Barkley, as someone who's been in more England squads, you could argue is more worthy of starting than players who weren't called up in previous years.

Obviously not the same type of example, because Klose is probably considered a Germany legend, but there were many years where you could argue that on merit Klose should not have been the starting striker for Germany. But Germany also was keeping a cohesive side together that understood the same system and Klose fit it really well. I don't blame Southgate for trying the same thing.

I think the problem is, though, that Barkley hasn't really kicked on at the club or international level. So I can understand wanting to see the likes of Mount or Maddison in his place. And to his credit, I think Mount made the most of his recent England cameos - and I think will have usurped Barkley at Chelsea and England not to soon. A bit shit for Maddison though that Mount is coming through though. 

It is very tough and I appreciate that you'll get pelters basically no matter what you do when you're in a position as heavily scrutinised as the England manager.

I get your example although it's slightly different when Klose had frequently turned up on the big occasion for them. Could the same be said for Ross Barkley? I just don't really 'get' his inclusion.

I don't think that Mount really did that much in the two games but it wasn't like he was on for long either. I'm speaking a bit more selfishly for Leicester ourselves here - I think the benefit for us is that this should fire Maddison up ahead of this weekend (and hopefully this season) as well as keeping him fresh, but it would be very easy for his agent to put it into his head now that he needs to leave Leicester to get proper recognition on the international stage. That said, we've had a lot of call-ups lately so maybe he'd see through it.

I just think the bottom line with Maddison is he's unlucky. It's a bit of a Le Tissier like situation.

 

16 minutes ago, Danny said:

Rice has such a heavy first touch, don’t see the benefit of him and Henderson against Kosovo and Bulgaria

To me the inclusion of both of those two meant we were playing safe for a 2-0 type of win which is a bit unadventurous but reliable enough, so to win 5-3 leaves me a bit puzzled, and to be honest I feel like we got the 5 because of the brilliance of the front three above anything else so ultimately beyond those we didn't really turn up.

It was a tough game to analyse but it's not the first time we've looked a mess at the back. Kosovo were not far off getting a fourth either.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Nah @Dan, I think you're spot on re: Barkley and I think I said the same thing. Klose performed regularly for Germany, Barkley doesn't regularly turn up... for club or for country. And I can understand being frustrated when you've got Maddison who performed pretty well last year and has more top level experience than Mount... but then Mount is preferred.

Although if you want to be even more selfish from a Leicester point of view, that's one player that's not going to be either injured or tired from playing midweek for you.

I think who's going to partner Henderson in the centre is more of an immediate issue for England, though. I think as the season goes on, we're likely to see Barkley lose his status at Chelsea/England. But I don't think Rice has demonstrated that he's ready to be an England regular. I certainly don't want us to turn back to Dier. I'd like to see Winks given a go... but really if we're going to not use Henderson in a holding role (and I don't think we should, I think he's better in a box-to-box role - for club & country)… then I think we ought to be looking at Fabien Delph.

It's not a sexy option and it certainly doesn't address that issue of creativity from our central midfield (although with a midfield of Henderson and Delph... I think Southgate could throw Maddison as a creative midfielder ahead of a very solid 2 in midfield and it'd work pretty nicely), but it's an experienced option that gives us a bit more solidarity. And it's a bit of protection in front of Keane/Maguire/Stones - who are all decent, but as mentioned earlier none of them are really leadership material (well I at least agree with that assessment) and are all prone to the odd error from time to time (demonstrated today).

[Dan+]

@Dr. Gonzo Funnily enough earlier I was speaking to someone about England and both of us agreed on a point that there's actually a slight basis of this current Liverpool side in England's set up, the problem obviously being that it doesn't really have anything like the defence by this I mean I think Southgate might be wanting a more workmanlike midfield trio. That's the key difference with you and Man City - they're more intricate and creative, you're more intense and energetic. I think Southgate's going with a midfield like the latter, and Maddison as much as anybody fits into the former.

Then again he still picks Barkley. I don't fucking well know.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Dan said:

@Dr. Gonzo Funnily enough earlier I was speaking to someone about England and both of us agreed on a point that there's actually a slight basis of this current Liverpool side in England's set up, the problem obviously being that it doesn't really have anything like the defence by this I mean I think Southgate might be wanting a more workmanlike midfield trio. That's the key difference with you and Man City - they're more intricate and creative, you're more intense and energetic. I think Southgate's going with a midfield like the latter, and Maddison as much as anybody fits into the former.

Then again he still picks Barkley. I don't fucking well know.

Yeah I think that’s a fair assessment of this England side. I think some sort of hybrid in the midfield might be better, but with the CBs we have a workmanlike midfield might be the safest thing to go with.

[Danny]

1 hour ago, Dan said:

It is very tough and I appreciate that you'll get pelters basically no matter what you do when you're in a position as heavily scrutinised as the England manager.

I get your example although it's slightly different when Klose had frequently turned up on the big occasion for them. Could the same be said for Ross Barkley? I just don't really 'get' his inclusion.

I don't think that Mount really did that much in the two games but it wasn't like he was on for long either. I'm speaking a bit more selfishly for Leicester ourselves here - I think the benefit for us is that this should fire Maddison up ahead of this weekend (and hopefully this season) as well as keeping him fresh, but it would be very easy for his agent to put it into his head now that he needs to leave Leicester to get proper recognition on the international stage. That said, we've had a lot of call-ups lately so maybe he'd see through it.

I just think the bottom line with Maddison is he's unlucky. It's a bit of a Le Tissier like situation.

 

To me the inclusion of both of those two meant we were playing safe for a 2-0 type of win which is a bit unadventurous but reliable enough, so to win 5-3 leaves me a bit puzzled, and to be honest I feel like we got the 5 because of the brilliance of the front three above anything else so ultimately beyond those we didn't really turn up.

It was a tough game to analyse but it's not the first time we've looked a mess at the back. Kosovo were not far off getting a fourth either.

I think we rely on their quality to get us through but have no teal gameplan othe than slowly pass it out from the back

Southgate has done a good job so far but I think his time is limited personally as the players we now have are outgrowing what he gives us

[Machado]

Called that Kosovo would put up a fight here. Great spirit in that side. They don't just bend down and accept defeats before kick off like other sides who supposedly are of similar quality.

[Smiley Culture]

8 hours ago, Stan said:

How does he work out where Maddison fits in the side if he doesn't give him minutes when you're 5-1 up at half-time against a Kosovo side?

If he needs to still work out where he fits, but has no intention of playing him, why call him up?

For what it's worth, I actually don't mind Southgate and willing to be much more patient than others when it comes to him managing England. I like that he gave Mount some time on the pitch.

That’s the thing, at International level, how do you do that? It’s not as though he has a wealth of games with his squads, as a club manager. Do you sacrifice playing what you think is your strongest team for giving players chances? There was no way he was going to make a sub at half-time, even in a game that was 5-1 at HT. We’d then been pegged back to 5-3 within ten minutes and arguably an attacking midfielder like Maddison probably wasn’t the best option till a point at which Southgate thought the game was won, hence why Barkley got 83 minutes. For what it’s worth, I would have been inclined to bring off Barkley and Rice but I can’t argue with Southgate and his record as England boss. 

Why call him up? Probably to get a closer look at him. There’s only so much you can see of a player sat in a stand or watching a video. 

[Machado]

In two games for the NT...

Sterling: 5 assists 2 goals

Bernardo 4 assists 1 goal

De Bruyne: 3 assists 1 goal

Guardiola is in heaven.

[True Blue]

Well Kosovo played a very open game, too open for the level of quality. Scoring three against England away from home is no small feat. They are also pretty much in it while England is basically qualified. 

[SirBalon]

Kosovo qualifying would cause a bit of a political humdinger due to the fact various countries do not recognise  them as an official qualified nation.

[SchalkeUK]

I must admit to finding some of the comments here slightly strange.  This is still - by comparison to earlier England squads - basically a very young team - bags of potential, but chances of errors under pressure - and sometimes errors created by their own inflicted pressure, but if it can be sorted the future looks very bright and hitting on Southgate when he is 'experimenting' with what he has in games where the result - however important - is not the most important element.  It's been a long time since the chances of success were at the present level so leave him to sort it - bring in the Sancho's and try them - success so far.  look at the Rices - don't throw away too soon, but there is time to decided on that - see if Barclay can improve any more - he is a hell of a lot better than he was last year so.... Perhaps Sterling can eventually learn to pass a ball to a level where it matches his brilliant finishing - last night's delivery was, at times, almost childish - but no one has mentioned those awful chances he wasted.  There's an old Sarah Vaughan song - 'Sinner or Saint'.  You Tube it and listen to the last line and apply it to the England squad - 'Who cares what people say of you, who cares what pictures they paint - all that I know is that I Love you - Saint or sinner - Sinner or Saint."  Just about sums up the present England side after last night but let Gareth sort it without undermining his authority and the 'sinner' part will be sorted before the finals!

[True Blue]

On 11/09/2019 at 11:24, SirBalon said:

Kosovo qualifying would cause a bit of a political humdinger due to the fact various countries do not recognise  them as an official qualified nation.

Basically if America and the leading European countries accept you, it is very little you can do to rebel.

[RandoEFC+]

On 11/09/2019 at 00:27, Danny said:

How did we concede three??? Course an Everton player was involved for one 

Is this some sort of weird WUM attempt? I would assume that it is but that would be strange seeing as I'm the only active Everton fan on here these days.

If serious, it's a pretty baffling comment to single out Everton as a club for having a player involved in a mistake leading to a goal conceded by England. Could just as easily say of course a Man Utd player was involved in one of them about Maguire. 

Keane and Maguire are not a good partnership. Both good defenders but too similar to each other. Joe Gomez partnered with one or the other would have a much better balance.

I also agree that Maddison and Mings shouldn't just get a token appearance because fans of their clubs want them to. However, what's truly mystifying is how Barkley still gets a game ahead of players like Maddison who have actually been productive for their team while Ross hasn't been productive for club or country. Even Lingard has done more than Barkley in an England shirt.

I'm convinced with Barkley that he benefits from so many past managers having failed to draw out his "potential". It's become a vanity thing now, each manager wants to be "the one who brings the best out of Barkley" as some sort of badge of honour for their coaching. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

57 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

I'm convinced with Barkley that he benefits from so many past managers having failed to draw out his "potential". It's become a vanity thing now, each manager wants to be "the one who brings the best out of Barkley" as some sort of badge of honour for their coaching. 

I actually think Barkley must be really good in training. Because he consistently gets chances and I don't think that many managers give that many chances to a player that doesn't perform on the pitch and in training. I've said... so many times... that I think what's holding Barkley back is all mental. And I think him being boss in training, but then feeling much more pressure in an actual match and sort of bottling it... that sounds plausible as fuck to me.

Also, weirdly, I disagree with you on playing Gomez partnered with Keane/Maguire. At least for these passed two England matches. Gomez hasn't played all that much since that lengthy injury layoff and he's currently lost his starting role in the side - which is shit for him because he was really really good paired with Virgil... but Matip has been great and is another good partner for VVD so he's not played as much as he probably would have. And I think that's fine as a squad option for England, throwing in a promising youngster that isn't getting regular play at present but he's got the quality to slot in.

But as a starter in a position like centreback, I think you want people that are playing regularly and in form. Which Keane is playing regularly (granted, yeah the season just fucking started) and he is in form. I don't blame Southgate for starting him - it makes sense on paper if you don't think about their style of play. You know he's not gonna drop Maguire, so might as well try Keane alongside him. I think now we're all a bit more aware it's not exactly the greatest CB pairing for England. But I wouldn't have gone with Gomez for these matches, even though I rate the lad very highly. He's just not played enough in this young season for me to be confident with starting him.

Once Gomez is getting more regular games with Liverpool, either because he's taken his chance after a Matip injury or error, or because he's forced his way in through training really well... then sure, I agree with you for the long term. But for those last two matches, I don't think Southgate did much wrong in his selection there - I put the 2 mistakes on the CBs entirely on those players. I think where Southgate's making the more obvious errors are in midfield - Rice and Barkley aren't good enough imo.

[RandoEFC+]

19 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I actually think Barkley must be really good in training. Because he consistently gets chances and I don't think that many managers give that many chances to a player that doesn't perform on the pitch and in training. I've said... so many times... that I think what's holding Barkley back is all mental. And I think him being boss in training, but then feeling much more pressure in an actual match and sort of bottling it... that sounds plausible as fuck to me.

Also, weirdly, I disagree with you on playing Gomez partnered with Keane/Maguire. At least for these passed two England matches. Gomez hasn't played all that much since that lengthy injury layoff and he's currently lost his starting role in the side - which is shit for him because he was really really good paired with Virgil... but Matip has been great and is another good partner for VVD so he's not played as much as he probably would have. And I think that's fine as a squad option for England, throwing in a promising youngster that isn't getting regular play at present but he's got the quality to slot in.

But as a starter in a position like centreback, I think you want people that are playing regularly and in form. Which Keane is playing regularly (granted, yeah the season just fucking started) and he is in form. I don't blame Southgate for starting him - it makes sense on paper if you don't think about their style of play. You know he's not gonna drop Maguire, so might as well try Keane alongside him. I think now we're all a bit more aware it's not exactly the greatest CB pairing for England. But I wouldn't have gone with Gomez for these matches, even though I rate the lad very highly. He's just not played enough in this young season for me to be confident with starting him.

Once Gomez is getting more regular games with Liverpool, either because he's taken his chance after a Matip injury or error, or because he's forced his way in through training really well... then sure, I agree with you for the long term. But for those last two matches, I don't think Southgate did much wrong in his selection there - I put the 2 mistakes on the CBs entirely on those players. I think where Southgate's making the more obvious errors are in midfield - Rice and Barkley aren't good enough imo.

It's not necessarily Gomez that has to start, more that I just think it's a risk playing two less pacey centre backs together. Especially in a footballing system where you might give the ball away under pressure and have to turn and sprint back at the drop of a hat. Walker at CB is another option though he wasn't in the squad. Stones isnt blessed with incredible pace but he is at least more agile than Keane and Maguire. I dont know how fast Mings is.

[Dr. Gonzo]

8 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

It's not necessarily Gomez that has to start, more that I just think it's a risk playing two less pacey centre backs together. Especially in a footballing system where you might give the ball away under pressure and have to turn and sprint back at the drop of a hat. Walker at CB is another option though he wasn't in the squad. Stones isnt blessed with incredible pace but he is at least more agile than Keane and Maguire. I dont know how fast Mings is.

I see what you're saying. Makes sense. I think Gomez will be ready to be an England regular one day... but obviously before I see that happening, he's got to once again be a regular for us. But yeah out of the options for those matches, I see why you'd say Gomez.

And yeah I don't know how fast Mings is either, but Gomez is pretty fuckin' quick. But if Mings is also quick then maybe it WAS the time to test him out as an England starter. Although I think that'd have been a bit shit for Keane, who I think deserved the chance to be tested based on form...

[Danny]

6 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Is this some sort of weird WUM attempt? I would assume that it is but that would be strange seeing as I'm the only active Everton fan on here these days.

If serious, it's a pretty baffling comment to single out Everton as a club for having a player involved in a mistake leading to a goal conceded by England. Could just as easily say of course a Man Utd player was involved in one of them about Maguire. 

Keane and Maguire are not a good partnership. Both good defenders but too similar to each other. Joe Gomez partnered with one or the other would have a much better balance.

I also agree that Maddison and Mings shouldn't just get a token appearance because fans of their clubs want them to. However, what's truly mystifying is how Barkley still gets a game ahead of players like Maddison who have actually been productive for their team while Ross hasn't been productive for club or country. Even Lingard has done more than Barkley in an England shirt.

I'm convinced with Barkley that he benefits from so many past managers having failed to draw out his "potential". It's become a vanity thing now, each manager wants to be "the one who brings the best out of Barkley" as some sort of badge of honour for their coaching. 

Your response was enough 

I was surprised Keane made the starting eleven tbh but I think Southgate has used these games to try out some fringe players

 

[Danny]

6 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Is this some sort of weird WUM attempt? I would assume that it is but that would be strange seeing as I'm the only active Everton fan on here these days.

If serious, it's a pretty baffling comment to single out Everton as a club for having a player involved in a mistake leading to a goal conceded by England. Could just as easily say of course a Man Utd player was involved in one of them about Maguire. 

Keane and Maguire are not a good partnership. Both good defenders but too similar to each other. Joe Gomez partnered with one or the other would have a much better balance.

I also agree that Maddison and Mings shouldn't just get a token appearance because fans of their clubs want them to. However, what's truly mystifying is how Barkley still gets a game ahead of players like Maddison who have actually been productive for their team while Ross hasn't been productive for club or country. Even Lingard has done more than Barkley in an England shirt.

I'm convinced with Barkley that he benefits from so many past managers having failed to draw out his "potential". It's become a vanity thing now, each manager wants to be "the one who brings the best out of Barkley" as some sort of badge of honour for their coaching. 

Your response was enough 

I was surprised Keane made the starting eleven tbh but I think Southgate has used these games to try out some fringe players

 

[Danny]

6 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Is this some sort of weird WUM attempt? I would assume that it is but that would be strange seeing as I'm the only active Everton fan on here these days.

If serious, it's a pretty baffling comment to single out Everton as a club for having a player involved in a mistake leading to a goal conceded by England. Could just as easily say of course a Man Utd player was involved in one of them about Maguire. 

Keane and Maguire are not a good partnership. Both good defenders but too similar to each other. Joe Gomez partnered with one or the other would have a much better balance.

I also agree that Maddison and Mings shouldn't just get a token appearance because fans of their clubs want them to. However, what's truly mystifying is how Barkley still gets a game ahead of players like Maddison who have actually been productive for their team while Ross hasn't been productive for club or country. Even Lingard has done more than Barkley in an England shirt.

I'm convinced with Barkley that he benefits from so many past managers having failed to draw out his "potential". It's become a vanity thing now, each manager wants to be "the one who brings the best out of Barkley" as some sort of badge of honour for their coaching. 

Your response was enough 

I was surprised Keane made the starting eleven tbh but I think Southgate has used these games to try out some fringe players

 

[Happy Blue]

On 10/09/2019 at 21:30, Dr. Gonzo said:

I hope we sign Sancho and not any of the other English clubs

I think he is coming back to us

[True Blue]

40 minutes ago, Happy Blue said:

I think he is coming back to us

Sure he is