Coronavirus (COVID-19) Outbreak

[Stan]

Don't mind if you nuke Bristol for that rave but do it after next August please. Cheers. 

[Bluebird Hewitt]

Been reading that some people in England have been stockpiling again prior to the lockdown. 

[Bluewolf]

1 minute ago, Bluebird Hewitt said:

Been reading that some people in England have been stockpiling again prior to the lockdown. 

Same stupid people doing the same stupid shit.... 

[Stan]

7 minutes ago, Bluebird Hewitt said:

Been reading that some people in England have been stockpiling again prior to the lockdown. 

 

6 minutes ago, Bluewolf said:

Same stupid people doing the same stupid shit.... 

Just read this while on a Teams meeting at work and someone just said they've done this 

[RandoEFC+]

There is a sizeable demographic of Brits who I simply don't understand. The ones who seem to actually want to be living in fear and living in lockdown. They think the virus is everything and nothing else is a factor. They are so utterly convinced, for example, on this occasion that the lockdown is going to go on much longer than 4 weeks, Christmas will be cancelled and thousands more people are going to die. They talk themselves into such a casual hysteria that they almost come across as if they want things to be as bad as possible. It's a really odd mentality.

[Harry]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

There is a sizeable demographic of Brits who I simply don't understand. The ones who seem to actually want to be living in fear and living in lockdown. They think the virus is everything and nothing else is a factor. They are so utterly convinced, for example, on this occasion that the lockdown is going to go on much longer than 4 weeks, Christmas will be cancelled and thousands more people are going to die. They talk themselves into such a casual hysteria that they almost come across as if they want things to be as bad as possible. It's a really odd mentality.

Who's going to want to be living in fear? Surely nobody. However they may believe it is necessary to go into another lockdown to lessen the burden of deaths coming along, which is reasonable.

 

[nudge+]

The reporting in media worldwide has been nothing short of mass psychosis though. A NeW rEcoRd!!! KiLleR vIruS BrInGz DeATh!!! Well guess what, it's been going on for over 10 months already; reporting new numbers and spinning endless articles about how long the virus survives on a plastic packaging in the freezer at -18 degrees does absolutely nothing anymore now that it has spread everywhere; other than make people more annoyed and feed into their fears and insecurities.

[RandoEFC+]

46 minutes ago, Harry said:

Who's going to want to be living in fear? Surely nobody. However they may believe it is necessary to go into another lockdown to lessen the burden of deaths coming along, which is reasonable.

 

What you're describing is a completely different thing though. I'm talking about people who want to lock all their doors, bar all their windows and shout "LOOK TOLD YOU WE'RE ALL STILL GONNA DIE" when the daily death toll goes up from 1 to 3. I think the psychology of it is something to do with people wanting the certainty of a full lockdown over the grey areas of second guessing all the minor changes in rules and restrictions. Hiding at home is guaranteed safety whereas leaving the house involves risk mitigation based on uncertain and ever-changing science. Maybe it's different in Australia but it even exists on the Isle of Man where we've been Covid-free (no local transmission) for almost six months. You have a vocal minority on one side who bang on about hoaxes and it's just the flu, I think we've all been exposed to them, but you have an equally bonkers and vocal minority at the other end of the spectrum who, whenever one person self-isolating after a trip to England tests positive for the virus, scream about "this is why we should close the borders and let nobody in until there's a vaccine". The latter group also seem to feel more vindicated about being right when something bad happens than they seem upset about what it means for the individuals and families involved. Thankfully in most places, including here, the majority in the middle understand that there has to be a trade-off between fighting the virus and sustaining some sense of normality for the sake of people's livelihoods and other health issues, and that the balance might shift on a regular basis as the science and infection rate changes.

This is where the phenomenon of the silent majority comes in. In England, you'd think that there was a massive debate about whether stricter measures are wanted or not. Most polling consistently shows that about 70% of the population agree with stricter restrictions and about 15% oppose them. But the 15% make the most noise and so it creates the false impression of a split country when actually a 70% consensus on something in England in the current political climate is astonishingly high.

[Bluebird Hewitt]

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

There is a sizeable demographic of Brits who I simply don't understand. The ones who seem to actually want to be living in fear and living in lockdown. They think the virus is everything and nothing else is a factor. They are so utterly convinced, for example, on this occasion that the lockdown is going to go on much longer than 4 weeks, Christmas will be cancelled and thousands more people are going to die. They talk themselves into such a casual hysteria that they almost come across as if they want things to be as bad as possible. It's a really odd mentality.

Pretty much sums up my mam and a fair amount in Wales really.

As I mentioned before, there are people who've happily defended the non essential item ban by using the virus as the excuse ('they want people to be in and out quicker', 'people might hang around longer when looking at these non essential items', 'this is to stop the NHS from being overwhelmed' and 'stop being selfish and think of others who could die from this' are the common ones I've seen).

While I do think Drakeford is handling this better than Boris (not hard really), we're going to the point of being so over cautious that this could damage us at the other end of the scale (economic reasons, unemployment etc) that people can't see. It doesn't help that we don't have media outlets or opposition that actually challenge the Welsh Government mind (the media are basically used for Welsh Government propaganda more often than not, while any form of opposition is drowned out because' nasty Tories', an arse licking party in Plaid and a non existent Lib Dem) while the general public will defend them at all costs to the point that they can't think for themselves. 

Goes back to @nudge's point really whereby you get new articles or announcements that make things worse and continuously spread fear. I remember a week or two ago where Gething mentioned that 'we hit a record high of infections recorded in the pandemic'. It was about 1,100 - 1,300, which while he is correct in his statement, he failed to mention that we didn't have the capacity at the beginning to test that many people from the off (we were barely hitting four figures for the first couple of months). 

[nudge+]

3 minutes ago, Bluebird Hewitt said:

Goes back to @nudge's point really whereby you get new articles or announcements that make things worse and continuously spread fear. I remember a week or two ago where Gething mentioned that 'we hit a record high of infections recorded in the pandemic'. It was about 1,100 - 1,300, which while he is correct in his statement, he failed to mention that we didn't have the capacity at the beginning to test that many people from the off (we were barely hitting four figures for the first couple of months). 

A recent example from my neck of woods:

Headline of the article: "New daily infections record! Situation critical: country's largest hospital running out of beds"

Actual situation, if you bother searching for and reading actual official reports: 102 covid patients in the hospital in question, 8 of them in ICU. 415 hospitalised with 35 of them in ICU in the whole bloody country. Important detail: 42% of total beds in ICU and 70% of total oxygen beds in the country still unused.  The dumb thing is, the information that actually matters isn't being reported, and you have to look for a while in order to find it. Reporting factual, not emotionally charged information doesn't sell I guess, so let's just spread fear and panic instead by printing sensationalised headlines and then wonder why people go crazy. It seems even the "reputable" (arguably) media sources have reached the bottom of tabloid-level shitpits lately.

 

 

[Bluebird Hewitt]

3 minutes ago, nudge said:

A recent example from my neck of woods:

Headline of the article: "New daily infections record! Situation critical: country's largest hospital running out of beds"

Actual situation, if you bother searching for and reading actual official reports: 102 covid patients in the hospital in question, 8 of them in ICU. 415 hospitalised with 35 of them in ICU in the whole bloody country. Important detail: 42% of total beds in ICU and 70% of total oxygen beds in the country still unused.  The dumb thing is, the information that actually matters isn't being reported, and you have to look for a while in order to find it. Reporting factual, not emotionally charged information doesn't sell I guess, so let's just spread fear and panic instead by printing sensationalised headlines and then wonder why people go crazy. It seems even the "reputable" (arguably) media sources have reached the bottom of tabloid-level shitpits lately.

Funnily enough, that part in bold is the reason as to why we're in our lockdown (for Wales at least). To stop the NHS from being overwhelmed due to increased hospital admissions and that 'we're close to full capacity'. 

Similar as well that we have a lot of stats and figures given to us, but I don't think we've actually been presented the evidence as to why these decisions are made (of which the actual situation you posted is what I've read a little of online. Of course, it gets shouted down at because 'I'd rather listen to the Welsh Government and Public Health Wales' or 'They're in a better position to tell us than you are' by the lapdogs here. 

[RandoEFC+]

6 minutes ago, nudge said:

A recent example from my neck of woods:

Headline of the article: "New daily infections record! Situation critical: country's largest hospital running out of beds"

Actual situation, if you bother searching for and reading actual official reports: 102 covid patients in the hospital in question, 8 of them in ICU. 415 hospitalised with 35 of them in ICU in the whole bloody country. Important detail: 42% of total beds in ICU and 70% of total oxygen beds in the country still unused.  The dumb thing is, the information that actually matters isn't being reported, and you have to look for a while in order to find it. Reporting factual, not emotionally charged information doesn't sell I guess, so let's just spread fear and panic instead by printing sensationalised headlines and then wonder why people go crazy. It seems even the "reputable" (arguably) media sources have reached the bottom of tabloid-level shitpits lately.

This is the exact problem though. Fear sells. Which leads me to believe that there's some weird mental gymnastics going on with a fairly sizeable group of people who are weirdly addicted to that fear. And if you try and play down the extent of the crisis, this demographic of people will criticise you for being a conspiracy theorist, which you can't really entirely blame them for, because of the anti-vax, anti-science, anti-fact Covid deniers that genuinely do exist.

Still, what this pandemic has done is create an absolutely fascinating case study in modern human behaviour and attitudes. Living through it isn't my idea of fun but it is objectively incredibly interesting seeing how different people, cultures, countries and government types have responded to this attack from nature.

[nudge+]

1 hour ago, Bluebird Hewitt said:

Funnily enough, that part in bold is the reason as to why we're in our lockdown (for Wales at least). To stop the NHS from being overwhelmed due to increased hospital admissions and that 'we're close to full capacity'. 

Similar as well that we have a lot of stats and figures given to us, but I don't think we've actually been presented the evidence as to why these decisions are made (of which the actual situation you posted is what I've read a little of online. Of course, it gets shouted down at because 'I'd rather listen to the Welsh Government and Public Health Wales' or 'They're in a better position to tell us than you are' by the lapdogs here. 

Protecting healthcare system from being overwhelmed is the main reason for lockdowns in most countries, the problem is when the argument is used simply for spreading fear or as an attempt to justify whatever measures governments worldwide decide to implement this week, without providing meaningful information that would actually justify it. So in the end you create two extremes in public opinion and people's attitudes  - those who buy into the fear and panic completely and support any governmental decision without questioning it, and those who straight out deny the existence of the problem in the first place. None of these two positions are healthy, yet the official government communication and media have been reinforcing both, whether deliberately or not. Oh and yes, constant appeals to authority have been equally as annoying as disinformation - heaven forbid you dare to question the official line, the measures implemented, and the competence of politicians and expert panels - you're basically a paranoid conspiracy theorist and an incarnation of evil if you do.

 

58 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

This is the exact problem though. Fear sells. Which leads me to believe that there's some weird mental gymnastics going on with a fairly sizeable group of people who are weirdly addicted to that fear. And if you try and play down the extent of the crisis, this demographic of people will criticise you for being a conspiracy theorist, which you can't really entirely blame them for, because of the anti-vax, anti-science, anti-fact Covid deniers that genuinely do exist.

Still, what this pandemic has done is create an absolutely fascinating case study in modern human behaviour and attitudes. Living through it isn't my idea of fun but it is objectively incredibly interesting seeing how different people, cultures, countries and government types have responded to this attack from nature.

Funnily enough, those who are in the demographic you describe also were, in many cases, the loudest ones in the beginning downplaying the potential seriousness of the situation, then did a 180 at some point, and are now vehemently preaching the upcoming end of the world with almost religious devotion. Baffles me, but then people do tend to go from one extreme to the other, so I probably shouldn't be surprised. It just doesn't look like a moderate, balanced view that is flexible based on new facts is desirable anymore. Maybe it never was.

Oh it's definitely been a very "interesting" time from a social psychologist's point of view; it's like seeing all theoretical concepts and behavioural experiments in action at once. Fascinating stuff, but also extremely frustrating at the same time.

[Bluewolf]

Johnson needs to stop repeatedly calling the Track and Trace 'NHS' it's run by Serco and headed by that Dido Harding woman... I was reading the other day that the government have spent roughly 143Mill on various consultants since this broke in the early part of the year and it's been nothing but a scandalous cash grab for all those favoured in the circle... He is also blaming the public for not doing enough isolation but that is not helped with a troubled track and trace system even if we do have our fair share of idiots... If this second lockdown fails to bring the virus under some sort of control I really don't see what the plan is??  The longer it goes on the worse things will get for those struggling in jobs and businesses and for the mental well being of everyone involved.. 

[nudge+]

1 minute ago, Bluewolf said:

If this second lockdown fails to bring the virus under some sort of control I really don't see what the plan is??  The longer it goes on the worse things will get for those struggling in jobs and businesses and for the mental well being of everyone involved.. 

This is what worries me most - what is the long term plan, if there is one at all? Especially if vaccines are unsuccessful or take a few more years to develop. Lockdowns won't eradicate the virus, just slow the spread to a certain degree, and once everything reopens, the spread picks up speed again and we're back to where we started, and then going into another lockdown shortly after. Surely governments can't be that crazy and realistically think that repeatedly implementing lockdown every few months is sustainable in a long run? 

[Bluewolf]

30 minutes ago, nudge said:

This is what worries me most - what is the long term plan, if there is one at all? Especially if vaccines are unsuccessful or take a few more years to develop. Lockdowns won't eradicate the virus, just slow the spread to a certain degree, and once everything reopens, the spread picks up speed again and we're back to where we started, and then going into another lockdown shortly after. Surely governments can't be that crazy and realistically think that repeatedly implementing lockdown every few months is sustainable in a long run? 

Yea it is a bit of a worry... There doesn't seem to be any light at the end of tunnel as things stand so it could just be a case of having high and low periods of infection for the foreseeable future unless there is a breakthrough somewhere... Meanwhile Governments are going to have to find ways of supporting it's people in getting through it.. From an article I was reading earlier it seems as though the US has basically just given up hope of controlling it at all... I don't like to think of the long term damage that could do over there but worse still if countries don't tighten up on what is already a very restrictive travel corridor then it could just continue to spread across the globe especially if they are not trying to keep some level of control over it... Just shows how ill prepared the world was for just such an event

[nudge+]

32 minutes ago, Bluewolf said:

Yea it is a bit of a worry... There doesn't seem to be any light at the end of tunnel as things stand so it could just be a case of having high and low periods of infection for the foreseeable future unless there is a breakthrough somewhere... Meanwhile Governments are going to have to find ways of supporting it's people in getting through it.. From an article I was reading earlier it seems as though the US has basically just given up hope of controlling it at all... I don't like to think of the long term damage that could do over there but worse still if countries don't tighten up on what is already a very restrictive travel corridor then it could just continue to spread across the globe especially if they are not trying to keep some level of control over it... Just shows how ill prepared the world was for just such an event

I think there is a way of avoiding all that, while also keeping the spread under control - namely, developing affordable, fast, accurate and easy to use tests that would enable people to easily test themselves at home and isolate if infected, thus allowing healthy people to return to normality instead of locking everyone down invariably whenever the number of infections spikes. That way you can have widespread regular testing that is not limited by lack of manpower and lab equipment, catch new infections early before the infected can unknowingly spread it, quarantine only those who are infected, and keep everything open with only limited restrictions. 

[Harry]

6 hours ago, nudge said:

A recent example from my neck of woods:

Headline of the article: "New daily infections record! Situation critical: country's largest hospital running out of beds"

Actual situation, if you bother searching for and reading actual official reports: 102 covid patients in the hospital in question, 8 of them in ICU. 415 hospitalised with 35 of them in ICU in the whole bloody country. Important detail: 42% of total beds in ICU and 70% of total oxygen beds in the country still unused.  The dumb thing is, the information that actually matters isn't being reported, and you have to look for a while in order to find it. Reporting factual, not emotionally charged information doesn't sell I guess, so let's just spread fear and panic instead by printing sensationalised headlines and then wonder why people go crazy. It seems even the "reputable" (arguably) media sources have reached the bottom of tabloid-level shitpits lately.

 

 

I think some of that will come from the exponential type growth though and the fact lockdowns that took effect today won't drive down case numbers for about two weeks, and won't drive down hospital admissions for 3 weeks, and deaths for 4 to 6 weeks.

But yeah it's way underreported that the first wave was unknown on size because most countries only tested those on deaths door. Although another point in that first wave was the mortality was higher because they didn't know how to treat it. 

The drugs trump was given, other than the stem cells are being used widely now and have seriously greatly improved the prospects of the very ill.

 

[nudge+]

4 hours ago, Harry said:

I think some of that will come from the exponential type growth though and the fact lockdowns that took effect today won't drive down case numbers for about two weeks, and won't drive down hospital admissions for 3 weeks, and deaths for 4 to 6 weeks.

But yeah it's way underreported that the first wave was unknown on size because most countries only tested those on deaths door. Although another point in that first wave was the mortality was higher because they didn't know how to treat it. 

The drugs trump was given, other than the stem cells are being used widely now and have seriously greatly improved the prospects of the very ill.

 

It wasn't meant to speak about arguments in favour or against lockdown to be honest, just an illustration of how the media (and government, to certain degree) sentionalises the stats and throws essentially meaningless numbers into your face thus fueling the state of fear without any in-depth factual analysis which would explain the situation to people in understandable terms without driving mass psychosis. You can easily report the actual situation and then argue in favour of more restrictive measures, based on the risk of exponential growth and whatnot, instead of masturbating over another daily record over and over again...

[Tommy]

21 minutes ago, nudge said:

 instead of masturbating over another daily record over and over again...

Finally someone is speaking my language. 

[Stan]

4 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Finally someone is speaking my language. 

Alright MUFC.

[Bluewolf]

4 hours ago, nudge said:

I think there is a way of avoiding all that, while also keeping the spread under control - namely, developing affordable, fast, accurate and easy to use tests that would enable people to easily test themselves at home and isolate if infected, thus allowing healthy people to return to normality instead of locking everyone down invariably whenever the number of infections spikes. That way you can have widespread regular testing that is not limited by lack of manpower and lab equipment, catch new infections early before the infected can unknowingly spread it, quarantine only those who are infected, and keep everything open with only limited restrictions. 

The entire population of the COVID-19 hotspot city of Liverpool will be regularly offered a coronavirus test in a pilot scheme using the armed forces.

The city, which has been under Tier 3 restrictions for nearly three weeks and has one of the highest coronavirus rates in England at 366.4 cases per 100,000, volunteered for the scheme, which will start on Friday.

The scheme will use new, rapid turnaround tests, with 2,000 members of the military working alongside NHS staff, and everyone living or working in the city offered repeat testing - even if asymptomatic.

Residents and workers will be tested using a combination of existing swab tests, as well as 500,000 new lateral flow tests, which can rapidly turn around results within an hour without the need to be processed in a lab.

People will be able to book a test online, by walking into a test centre, or by invitation from the city council.

Tests will be carried out at new and existing test sites, using home kits, in hospitals, care homes, schools, universities and workplaces.

[The Artful Dodger]

I'm not sure exactly what this means, they want us to go and get tested but we're not obliged? If it means there's a better chance of us getting the pubs back open for Christmas then i'll be forcing my neighbours down there.

[Bluebird Hewitt]

18 hours ago, nudge said:

This is what worries me most - what is the long term plan, if there is one at all? Especially if vaccines are unsuccessful or take a few more years to develop. Lockdowns won't eradicate the virus, just slow the spread to a certain degree, and once everything reopens, the spread picks up speed again and we're back to where we started, and then going into another lockdown shortly after. Surely governments can't be that crazy and realistically think that repeatedly implementing lockdown every few months is sustainable in a long run? 

Ours pretty much said that last month. They'll most likely ask England to pick up the tab as well. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54416536

[Stan]

18 hours ago, nudge said:

This is what worries me most - what is the long term plan, if there is one at all? Especially if vaccines are unsuccessful or take a few more years to develop. Lockdowns won't eradicate the virus, just slow the spread to a certain degree, and once everything reopens, the spread picks up speed again and we're back to where we started, and then going into another lockdown shortly after. Surely governments can't be that crazy and realistically think that repeatedly implementing lockdown every few months is sustainable in a long run? 

 

3 minutes ago, Bluebird Hewitt said:

Ours pretty much said that last month. They'll most likely ask England to pick up the tab as well. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54416536

Yeah, you are aware of the UK government are like, right