Subscriber RandoEFC+ 7,663 Posted January 25, 2021 Subscriber Share Posted January 25, 2021 7 hours ago, ToonFan said: It's obviously an initially emotive thought. However I don't think it's all that worthy of your reaction. The guy killed somebody, we have undisputed evidence he killed somebody in a premeditated attack to make a religio-political statement. He's serving a sentence for the crime. If the death penalty wasn't such a difficult concept to implement, you'd likely find many people including myself morally support the principle in this scenario. I'm literally talking life for life scenarios here like this case. If we're expecting doctors to prioritise people based on likelihood to survive illness - I don't see the issue with government prioritising murderers especially terrorists below everybody else and not having them waste a bed in hospital that your nan, brother or sister who's never even notched up a speeding fine could have . Just don't send anybody in a prison for terrorism/murder/paedophilia and other similarly heinious crimes to hospital for treatment. This guy is beyond rehabilitation so why not do the world a favour? The NHS should be reframed as a contract between citizen and government rather than a birth right - free at the point of use provided you don't do something objectively abhorrent (we all know the sort of crimes I mean, we're not talking a drunk and disorderly on a Saturday night after a match here). A more palatable version to the soft-hearted might be to charge them for their treatment but that's arguably worse than letting them die as it leaves them in debt on exiting prison and could spurr reoffending (not that this guy ever should exit prison). Firstly, you don't know this. Secondly, even if it's true, being in prison for the rest of his life is a greater punishment than being put out of his misery. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Artful Dodger 1,831 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 You never want to live in a country where the state has the power to decide who lives and dies. Whatever you think of these people. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panna King 1,012 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, RandoEFC said: What the hell is Europe doing with the vaccines? Some countries on track to take 4 years to get the job done. Are governments fucking things up or is this just how lucky we are to have the NHS? Or a bit of both? They are doing Vaccines in The Netherlands but are also still testing them as well still so its a slow process. They have found out that the UK have it wrong with 2 jabs in 3 months, it doesnt work. Also they are testing the vaccines against all the different types of variants, We do not have a national health service, its private so more tests are needed to ensure they are happy. Edited January 25, 2021 by Panna King Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber CaaC (John)+ 5,360 Posted January 25, 2021 Subscriber Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) That's me and the wives COVID-19 jab appointments just arrived, at a bloody Conference Centre the other side of town from us at 16.40, the 4th of Feb, the wife is not looking forward to it but I said look on the bright side darling, that's on my State Pension day payments and we can go for a pint or two after. Edit: The wife pointed out the pubs are closed so that idea is up the shoot. Edited January 25, 2021 by CaaC (John) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnivore Chris 2,606 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) 18 hours ago, RandoEFC said: What the hell is Europe doing with the vaccines? Some countries on track to take 4 years to get the job done. Are governments fucking things up or is this just how lucky we are to have the NHS? Or a bit of both? I salute ambulances whenever they go past me, it's amazing how many salute back. As for vaccines, the Lancaster town hall has been converted into a vaccine centre now. I walked past today and told them I'll have one there and then but they said you have to wait until contacted. Should just send the army out shooting every cunt with darts Edited January 25, 2021 by Carnivore Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ 7,663 Posted January 25, 2021 Subscriber Share Posted January 25, 2021 6 hours ago, Panna King said: They are doing Vaccines in The Netherlands but are also still testing them as well still so its a slow process. They have found out that the UK have it wrong with 2 jabs in 3 months, it doesnt work. Also they are testing the vaccines against all the different types of variants, We do not have a national health service, its private so more tests are needed to ensure they are happy. I'm not sure about that, I know the science is conflicting and that the recommendation is to do it after 3 weeks, and that it's a bit of a gamble on the UK's part, but there's no evidence that 8-12 weeks reduces the effectiveness of the process, it's just a bit of a gamble because the evidence that it does work isn't as well established. If the Dutch scientists had firmly established that it was the wrong thing to do, I think we'd have heard more about it by now. That said, I wouldn't be surprised and it would be entirely in keeping with the UK's approach so far if people who had received their second dose after 12 weeks were picking up the virus and passing it on later this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panna King 1,012 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 10 minutes ago, RandoEFC said: I'm not sure about that, I know the science is conflicting and that the recommendation is to do it after 3 weeks, and that it's a bit of a gamble on the UK's part, but there's no evidence that 8-12 weeks reduces the effectiveness of the process, it's just a bit of a gamble because the evidence that it does work isn't as well established. If the Dutch scientists had firmly established that it was the wrong thing to do, I think we'd have heard more about it by now. That said, I wouldn't be surprised and it would be entirely in keeping with the UK's approach so far if people who had received their second dose after 12 weeks were picking up the virus and passing it on later this year. All different countries have their own way but It was Dutch and German research said that about the time length. Plus there is a shortage of supply around the EU with the vaccine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber nudge+ 15,325 Posted January 25, 2021 Author Subscriber Share Posted January 25, 2021 18 hours ago, Rucksackfranzose said: Has a lot to do with the manufacturer, including Oxford-AstraZenica, not providing enough vaccine at the agreed time. Has much more to do with empty promises towards European governments and the EU from pharmaceutical industry than with the NHS being so efficient. It's a bloody disaster, isn't it? Both Oxford/AstraZeneca and Pfizer seem to be unable to respect the initial contracts. Pfizer has shortages now but they are expected to be temporary, and they said they will reach their goal of their Q1 deliveries nevertheless (we'll see about that...). As for Ox/AZ... The EU has ordered 400m doses from them early on, with a 100m doses promised to be delivered in Q1 of 2021, and now they are saying that it'll likely be just 40m at best because of "a production error". That's less than a half, and considering that it's supposed to be distributed between the countries, that's frankly a laughable amount. This whole thing is doing my head in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ 7,663 Posted January 25, 2021 Subscriber Share Posted January 25, 2021 I wonder why that's happened yet the UK seem to just be fine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rucksackfranzose 4,376 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 56 minutes ago, RandoEFC said: I wonder why that's happened yet the UK seem to just be fine? Don't know for sure, would guess it has to do with 66.7 m inhabitants of the UK and 447.7 m inhabitants of the EU, though. That suggests that the doses needed in the UK are much less than that needed in the EU and therefore easier to produce. As said only a guess, still doesn't lack some logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber nudge+ 15,325 Posted January 25, 2021 Author Subscriber Share Posted January 25, 2021 1 hour ago, RandoEFC said: I wonder why that's happened yet the UK seem to just be fine? Different supply chains. EU Commission seems to imply that AstraZeneca sold the doses intended for EU to somebody else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber nudge+ 15,325 Posted January 25, 2021 Author Subscriber Share Posted January 25, 2021 According to Handelsblatt, AstraZeneca vaccine is only 8% effective in population over-65 Would be a huge blow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluewolf 7,161 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 One of our team tested positive today and normally when that has happened in other departments they have sent everyone in that bubble home to self isolate for 10 days... Not us though 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ 7,663 Posted January 25, 2021 Subscriber Share Posted January 25, 2021 56 minutes ago, nudge said: Different supply chains. EU Commission seems to imply that AstraZeneca sold the doses intended for EU to somebody else. I hate that the thought even crosses my mind but is there any potential for some cloak and dagger BS to have happened on the UK's part to try and hoard more vaccine? I would like to think that the powers that be in the UK wouldn't sink that low but the way some of our MPs have been casting this as some sort of Vaccine World Cup now that they've finally found something that they've got ahead in, I wouldn't put it past some of them. Surely there's no way they could actually do that without breaking contracts or international agreements of some description? Just a question, I'd hate to be accused of peddling conspiracies... There's been some murmurings in the UK about supply as well. There was something on Twitter about places in Yorkshire not getting as much vaccine as some places down South, some local MPs got involved and the local journalists defended themselves, seemed to be a North/South divide angle to it again but I never found the original story - I don't know if anyone else did? 1 hour ago, nudge said: According to Handelsblatt, AstraZeneca vaccine is only 8% effective in population over-65 Would be a huge blow. How does this square with the original numbers? Not enough testing carried out on this age group? 55 minutes ago, Bluewolf said: One of our team tested positive today and normally when that has happened in other departments they have sent everyone in that bubble home to self isolate for 10 days... Not us though Hardly gardening weather this time of year anyway . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan 18,386 Posted January 25, 2021 Administrator Share Posted January 25, 2021 1 minute ago, RandoEFC said: There's been some murmurings in the UK about supply as well. There was something on Twitter about places in Yorkshire not getting as much vaccine as some places down South, some local MPs got involved and the local journalists defended themselves, seemed to be a North/South divide angle to it again but I never found the original story - I don't know if anyone else did? The claim doesn't really stack up to anything though. Where I am in Bedford we didn't get our supply until about a couple of weeks ago and there's already been further supply issues causing one of our hubs to be closed temporarily... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ 7,663 Posted January 25, 2021 Subscriber Share Posted January 25, 2021 Just now, Stan said: The claim doesn't really stack up to anything though. Where I am in Bedford we didn't get our supply until about a couple of weeks ago and there's already been further supply issues causing one of our hubs to be closed temporarily... Yeah like I say I never found the root of the conflict and it wasn't covered nationally as far as I saw so was just wondering if anyone else had the details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber nudge+ 15,325 Posted January 25, 2021 Author Subscriber Share Posted January 25, 2021 1 hour ago, RandoEFC said: I hate that the thought even crosses my mind but is there any potential for some cloak and dagger BS to have happened on the UK's part to try and hoard more vaccine? I would like to think that the powers that be in the UK wouldn't sink that low but the way some of our MPs have been casting this as some sort of Vaccine World Cup now that they've finally found something that they've got ahead in, I wouldn't put it past some of them. Surely there's no way they could actually do that without breaking contracts or international agreements of some description? Just a question, I'd hate to be accused of peddling conspiracies... I assume that's the reason why the EU now wants transparency and is pushing AstraZeneca to reveal how many doses were produced in their EU supply chain and where those doses went... All speculation at this point; could be actual production issues, but it appears that the European Commission wasn't satisfied with AstraZeneca's explanations, and I've also heard suggesstions that a part of those vaccine doses intended for the EU were sold to the UK and US instead - but as you said, no evidence so far, so just pure speculation. I honestly don't like where it's all going. 1 hour ago, RandoEFC said: How does this square with the original numbers? Not enough testing carried out on this age group? Yeah, the sample size in their trials was too small and didn't reach statistical significance to draw any conclusions, so there's pretty much no efficacy data for this age group. The report in Handelsblatt cites undisclosed sources in the German government, so it's a bit vague, but they are a serious and quite trustworthy newspaper, normally. There are other media reports now also claiming that EMA will only approve the vaccine for those under 65 only. Frankly, efficacy of only 8% seems unlikely to me, can't see there being such a huge difference between the age groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panna King 1,012 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Curfew going well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnivore Chris 2,606 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) Interesting. Pandemics actually do happen every 100 years, exactly every 100 years. Edited January 26, 2021 by Carnivore Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panna King 1,012 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 9 hours ago, Carnivore Chris said: Interesting. Pandemics actually do happen every 100 years, exactly every 100 years. New wave of immigration every 100 years is probably the main cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Artful Dodger 1,831 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 1 hour ago, Panna King said: New wave of immigration every 100 years is probably the main cause. What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panna King 1,012 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said: What? Well pandemics are linked to travel and migration, in the past merchant ships carried diseases that is how the plague started from the fleas on the rats, even the last Spanish Flu in 1918 was from military bases based in Europe from the War. A huge wave of immigration was in America after that time. There is now a lot of free movement of people, so its all linked. Edited January 26, 2021 by Panna King Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Artful Dodger 1,831 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Panna King said: Well pandemics are linked to travel and migration, in the past merchant ships carried diseases that is how the plague started from the fleas on the rats, even the last Spanish Flu in 1918 was from military bases based in Europe from the War. There is now a lot of free movement of people, so its all linked. Ah it's the argument of the racist. Edited January 26, 2021 by The Artful Dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panna King 1,012 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Just now, The Artful Dodger said: Are it's argument of the racist. What on earth is racist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Artful Dodger 1,831 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) Just now, Panna King said: What on earth is racist? You're attempt to blame pandemics on immigration. I mean at a base level, yes, if nobody ever moved around but this is so obvious as to be pointless in saying it, hence the motive is more nefarious. Edited January 26, 2021 by The Artful Dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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