George Floyd Death - Derek Chauvin Guilty of Murder

[nudge]

Just now, Gunnersauraus said:

So it is just lazy thinking?

Are those people Americans, by any chance? They seem to label anyone who thinks differently or who wants a societal change a communist, it's like kryptonite for them  

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, nudge said:

Are those people Americans, by any chance? They seem to label anyone who thinks differently or who wants a societal change a communist, it's like kryptonite for them  

I think she was English actually. There are people like that in England my dad associates alot of things with communism. It's easy to see how people can get confused though. I mean if somebody wants certain things in place to stop people living in poverty or health care paid by tax. It's easy to see how someone can see it as a version of it. However it is very different 

[RandoEFC+]

1 hour ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Some people are saying BLM are Communists. I have no idea how that works. @Dr. Gonzo @RandoEFC as two of the most intelligent people on here. How does that work?

Some right wingers call anything and anyone that isn't as right wing as they are communism or communists. It doesn't really "work". It's akin to me calling David Cameron a fascist and a Nazi because I disagree with him about things and he's more conservative than I am.

Anyone who calls any mainstream politics in the West "communism", "Marxism", "fascism" or any other extreme position should just be ignored.

Also for future reference, there are plenty of others on here that are more knowledgeable than I am on this stuff, @Harvsky for example. I do enough reading and listening to be in touch with what's going on and have an understanding of mainstream political issues but I have no education or expertise in the area really.

[nudge]

3 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

I think she was English actually. There are people like that in England my dad associates alot of things with communism. It's easy to see how people can get confused though. I mean if somebody wants certain things in place to stop people living in poverty or health care paid by tax. It's easy to see how someone can see it as a version of it. However it is very different 

Seems like the Cold War mentalities and false dichotomies still prevail then... in the end, it still is lazy thinking. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

44 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Anyone who calls any mainstream politics in the West "communism", "Marxism", "fascism" or any other extreme position should just be ignored.

I'd have agreed with you 4 years ago, but in the US I think there's a growing group of people that would be okay with trading democracy for fascism. It's something to keep an eye on, especially if the Americanisation of British politics continues.

The US Holocaust museum has a plaque that lists the 12 warning signs of fascism... and it's not the greatest thing to read right now if you live in America right now:

1. Powerful and continuing nationalism - MAGA, check
2. Disdain for human rights - check (this one's maybe debatable, but let's look at those camps by the US-Mexico border or the heavy handed policing we've been seeing; also lol... like everything the US has ever done in the Middle East)
3. Identification of enemies as a unifying cause - immigrants, the left, brown people, black people, etc... this one is more tenuous tbh, America isn't really united - but these are definitely unifying to one party.
4. Rampant sexism - instead of saying check, let's just say Trump has grabbed #4 on this list by the pussy
5. Controlled mass media - THIS IS AN ISSUE ANYWHERE MURDOCH'S PUT HIS FUCKING FINGERS INTO... so check
6. Obsession with national security - in America, this is always an obsession, check
7. Religion and government intertwined - legitimately the only reason Mike Pence is part of this administration, check
8. Corporate power protected - check
9. Labor power suppressed - check
10. Disdain for intellectual and the arts - see his tirades against Hollywood & one of his first actions was to defund the National Endowment of the Arts. He also said "I love the uneducated" and has contradicted many experts on many topics, despite facts indicating experts should be listened to.
11. Obsession with crime and punishment - "LAW AND ORDER", check
12. Rampant cronyism and corruption - check fucking mate, the Senate's impeachment "trial" with no witnesses was the most absurd act of political corruption I've ever seen tbh. There's also the whole issue of how Trump insists on traveling to Trump properties, making the US government rent rooms from his hotels, resorts, and all of that shite. His COVID bailout for his pals & the pushing of hydroxychloroquine treatments for the virus because he's invested in the manufacturer. Giving political jobs to campaign contributors, rather than people who are actually qualified. This one is probably the most staggeringly obvious one for Trump.

I don't think it's right to necessarily ignore people saying "watch out for fascists" if there's 10-11/12 red flags for fascism. Social media and a lack of critical thinking are pushing people to the political extremes - so I think it's wise to be on the lookout for people trying to make ideologies that were once fringe into the mainstream.

It's not really isolated to the US either. Parties that are fairly "Trumpian" are all around Europe, tbh. BNP/UKIP here, AfD in Germany, National Front (or whatever they've rebranded as) in France, the 5 Star Movement in Italy (where tbh, fascism has sort of been an underlying problem since they were fascist), Golden Dawn in Greece, etc... Hungary recently voted to end it's democracy and return to an autocracy. We've got China in Asia, who are communist in name... but it's more of a quasi-fascist state in practice. Erdogan in Turkey. Putin in Russia.

Fascist movements and authoritarians seeking to strengthen their grip on power are definitely something to be pretty concerned about in the West, imo.

[RandoEFC+]

14 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I'd have agreed with you 4 years ago, but in the US I think there's a growing group of people that would be okay with trading democracy for fascism. It's something to keep an eye on, especially if the Americanisation of British politics continues.

The US Holocaust museum has a plaque that lists the 12 warning signs of fascism... and it's not the greatest thing to read right now if you live in America right now:

1. Powerful and continuing nationalism - MAGA, check
2. Disdain for human rights - check (this one's maybe debatable, but let's look at those camps by the US-Mexico border or the heavy handed policing we've been seeing; also lol... like everything the US has ever done in the Middle East)
3. Identification of enemies as a unifying cause - immigrants, the left, brown people, black people, etc... this one is more tenuous tbh, America isn't really united - but these are definitely unifying to one party.
4. Rampant sexism - instead of saying check, let's just say Trump has grabbed #4 on this list by the pussy
5. Controlled mass media - THIS IS AN ISSUE ANYWHERE MURDOCH'S PUT HIS FUCKING FINGERS INTO... so check
6. Obsession with national security - in America, this is always an obsession, check
7. Religion and government intertwined - legitimately the only reason Mike Pence is part of this administration, check
8. Corporate power protected - check
9. Labor power suppressed - check
10. Disdain for intellectual and the arts - see his tirades against Hollywood & one of his first actions was to defund the National Endowment of the Arts. He also said "I love the uneducated" and has contradicted many experts on many topics, despite facts indicating experts should be listened to.
11. Obsession with crime and punishment - "LAW AND ORDER", check
12. Rampant cronyism and corruption - check fucking mate, the Senate's impeachment "trial" with no witnesses was the most absurd act of political corruption I've ever seen tbh. There's also the whole issue of how Trump insists on traveling to Trump properties, making the US government rent rooms from his hotels, resorts, and all of that shite. His COVID bailout for his pals & the pushing of hydroxychloroquine treatments for the virus because he's invested in the manufacturer. Giving political jobs to campaign contributors, rather than people who are actually qualified. This one is probably the most staggeringly obvious one for Trump.

I don't think it's right to necessarily ignore people saying "watch out for fascists" if there's 10-11/12 red flags for fascism. Social media and a lack of critical thinking are pushing people to the political extremes - so I think it's wise to be on the lookout for people trying to make ideologies that were once fringe into the mainstream.

It's not really isolated to the US either. Parties that are fairly "Trumpian" are all around Europe, tbh. BNP/UKIP here, AfD in Germany, National Front (or whatever they've rebranded as) in France, the 5 Star Movement in Italy (where tbh, fascism has sort of been an underlying problem since they were fascist), Golden Dawn in Greece, etc... Hungary recently voted to end it's democracy and return to an autocracy. We've got China in Asia, who are communist in name... but it's more of a quasi-fascist state in practice. Erdogan in Turkey. Putin in Russia.

Fascist movements and authoritarians seeking to strengthen their grip on power are definitely something to be pretty concerned about in the West, imo.

Yeah this is all fair enough. I put UK at first then changed it to the West.

[Honey Honey]

I think the communist and anarchist accusation in the UK has a fair bit to do with two talking points. I wouldn't get too caught up in its accuracy. 

The first is that language such as "dismantle capitalism" is being used by some promoting BLM. Political positions considered too extreme to stand on their own two feet attach themselves to popular movements then define and explain that movement in their own extremist lens. If someone is unfamiliar with BLM and the first people they hear representing them on tv or radio have poor persuasion skills and their personal politics keeps slipping out then BLM becomes associated with that. Opponents to a movement often focus on the worst 5% of a group. Churchill's statue has a lot to do with this as well. Vandalised by 2 or 3 people out of an entire protest but the talking point of white people. The white people most virulently vocal about Churchill being a wrongun to be removed are associated rightly or wrongly with the far left. Those who don't really know what BLM is in any depth will look to what's going on around them, which in Britain is overwhelmingly what are white people saying, then associate a political view to BLM based on white political views they can tie to BLM. 

The second is that Colston's statue was pulled down by a fair few white people, the assumption is that these people are anarchists, that assumption is based on a history of protest movement infiltration by anarchists. Connecting protest violence to anarchists is particularly prominent in the mind of those who were adults in the 1980s. 

In conclusion, with BLM we would all be wise to listen to a broad spectrum of black views and ignore as much of the white takes as possible. For every 1 BLM view form a black person we are exposed to we probably have to shovel through a dozen white views. 

[Cicero]

Bunch of BLM protesters last night removed, destroyed, and vandalised a statue at a state capital in Wisconsin. Stating the statue didn't represent progression. Failing to realise the individual the statue was representing was an anti-slavery activist & abolitionist.

On top of their oversight, they  also attacked a democratic senator. 

 

 

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Harvsky said:

I think the communist and anarchist accusation in the UK has a fair bit to do with two talking points. I wouldn't get too caught up in its accuracy. 

The first is that language such as "dismantle capitalism" is being used by some promoting BLM. Political positions considered too extreme to stand on their own two feet attach themselves to popular movements then define and explain that movement in their own extremist lens. If someone is unfamiliar with BLM and the first people they hear representing them on tv or radio have poor persuasion skills and their personal politics keeps slipping out then BLM becomes associated with that. Opponents to a movement often focus on the worst 5% of a group. Churchill's statue has a lot to do with this as well. Vandalised by 2 or 3 people out of an entire protest but the talking point of white people. The white people most virulently vocal about Churchill being a wrongun to be removed are associated rightly or wrongly with the far left. Those who don't really know what BLM is in any depth will look to what's going on around them, which in Britain is overwhelmingly what are white people saying, then associate a political view to BLM based on white political views they can tie to BLM. 

The second is that Colston's statue was pulled down by a fair few white people, the assumption is that these people are anarchists, that assumption is based on a history of protest movement infiltration by anarchists. Connecting protest violence to anarchists is particularly prominent in the mind of those who were adults in the 1980s. 

In conclusion, with BLM we would all be wise to listen to a broad spectrum of black views and ignore as much of the white takes as possible. For every 1 BLM view form a black person we are exposed to we probably have to shovel through a dozen white views. 

I live in Bristol and I don't have an issue with the Colstan statue being pulled down. Bare in mind the whole crowd was chearing so I'm not sure if you can say it is a minority on that particular occasion. But also I should say if I was there I would have  been chearing. Although my opinion has changed slightly. The problem is that so many people in the past were involved in slavery or racism. If it was just a few I think it would be ok to take them down. However there are so many are we gonna take them all down.  The main aim has to be for change. However if it was my ancestors that went through slavery and racism I would be a bit upset about statues of people who were involved being up.

Another point is that I don't believe change normally happens without ruffling a few feathers. I think history has proved that. What are a few statues if serious change is made. I do think also one of the main(if not the main) for some people is the pandemic and that this could cause a second peak. However can you pospone something like this? I'm not sure.

[Guest]

@Stan how much racism have you experienced? And how old are you? Do you feel people your age are less racist?

[Stan]

1 hour ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Stan how much racism have you experienced? And how old are you? Do you feel people your age are less racist?

Personally, none directly recently. I'd say it was more prevalent around university and the years leading up to it. A lot of it on a football pitch (Sunday League) and in school matches or nights out. Usual taunts of 'you're a paki', 'go back to where you came from', 'go back to your own country' etc, presumption of being Muslim (which is wrong in itself) and racial comments about them, or curry-related jibes - all of which I'm sure if you questioned the person saying it, they'd say it was only 'banter' or 'I was only joking, he can take it'. The biggest yet worst cop-out there is, when they say that. They mean it unless they get caught up on it. Much like those celebs who are only sorry they get caught...

The worrying thing was that if you complained to the ref they'd straight away say they didn't hear it or just ignore you. 

My parents suffered more before I was born (racism was so much more prevalent and in your face then by their account, especially in school; nowadays social media gives rise to keyboard warriors and a voice to those who would say fuck all in person). 

As for people my age being less racist. It's hard to tell. On social media I see so many people (usually those accompanied by Union Jack/England flags in their usernames) or severely bad spelling, and you look in to their profiles a bit and they're parents or family people, much older or much younger (I'm 29). The current climate since referendum has brought a lot of scum out of the woodwork though when you see their rants or statuses on Facebook or comments on Twitter. They're hastily de-friended/unfollowed - even if you do try to reason with them. Thankfully they are in the minority. 

[nudge]

11 minutes ago, Stan said:

Personally, none directly recently. I'd say it was more prevalent around university and the years leading up to it. A lot of it on a football pitch (Sunday League) and in school matches or nights out. Usual taunts of 'you're a paki', 'go back to where you came from', 'go back to your own country' etc, presumption of being Muslim (which is wrong in itself) and racial comments about them, or curry-related jibes - all of which I'm sure if you questioned the person saying it, they'd say it was only 'banter' or 'I was only joking, he can take it'. The biggest yet worst cop-out there is, when they say that. They mean it unless they get caught up on it. Much like those celebs who are only sorry they get caught...

The worrying thing was that if you complained to the ref they'd straight away say they didn't hear it or just ignore you. 

My parents suffered more before I was born (racism was so much more prevalent and in your face then by their account, especially in school; nowadays social media gives rise to keyboard warriors and a voice to those who would say fuck all in person). 

As for people my age being less racist. It's hard to tell. On social media I see so many people (usually those accompanied by Union Jack/England flags in their usernames) or severely bad spelling, and you look in to their profiles a bit and they're parents or family people, much older or much younger (I'm 29). The current climate since referendum has brought a lot of scum out of the woodwork though when you see their rants or statuses on Facebook or comments on Twitter. They're hastily de-friended/unfollowed - even if you do try to reason with them. Thankfully they are in the minority. 

I worked for two companies where we dealt with British customers directly (over the phone/email), some of the unprovoked "racial" and xenophobic abuse me and my colleagues experienced on a daily basis was just vile, so I can only imagine how bad it can be for people of different ethnicity living there. I say "racial" in quotation marks because none of us were actually of different race, but that didn't stop the stupid ignorant pricks from hurling all possible insults our way, just because they were able to notice the accent, but were too dumb to figure out what it was. Funny thing, our CEO was actually English, and some customers still managed to call him a "fucking Indian" on some occasions, so go figure...  

 

[Azeem]

Those idiots should learn their own history before saying go back where you came from, a reason why there are lots of South Asians in Britain similarly Turks in Germany is because they imported man power from these places after killing each other in WWs. 

This was all your idea

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, nudge said:

I worked for two companies where we dealt with British customers directly (over the phone/email), some of the unprovoked "racial" and xenophobic abuse me and my colleagues experienced on a daily basis was just vile, so I can only imagine how bad it can be for people of different ethnicity living there. I say "racial" in quotation marks because none of us were actually of different race, but that didn't stop the stupid ignorant pricks from hurling all possible insults our way, just because they were able to notice the accent, but were too dumb to figure out what it was. Funny thing, our CEO was actually English, and some customers still managed to call him a "fucking Indian" on some occasions, so go figure...  

 

Wow, that's fucked up.

From my experience being a pretty white looking guy that's half Middle Eastern, I've not really experienced much direct racism towards me. Although my mum's experienced some of that shite after leaving Iran, especially while she was at uni. My uncle got the shit kicked out of him a few times for being brown in the 80s, so there's that too. And what I've personally experienced in the UK is people saying some pretty bigoted shit about Muslims and people from the Middle East right to my face, not knowing where my mum is from and not expecting me to take offense to the shite they said.

It's weird, because I think most people in the UK aren't racist... but those who are racist are pretty shamelessly open about their racism.

[nudge]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Wow, that's fucked up.

From my experience being a pretty white looking guy that's half Middle Eastern, I've not really experienced much direct racism towards me. Although my mum's experienced some of that shite after leaving Iran, especially while she was at uni. My uncle got the shit kicked out of him a few times for being brown in the 80s, so there's that too. And what I've personally experienced in the UK is people saying some pretty bigoted shit about Muslims and people from the Middle East right to my face, not knowing where my mum is from and not expecting me to take offense to the shite they said.

It's weird, because I think most people in the UK aren't racist... but those who are racist are pretty shamelessly open about their racism.

It is interesting you say that, because having spent prolonged periods of time in a number of countries, I would say that while all of them definitely have their fair share of people who hold less than favourable views (I'm being generous here) about other races/countries/nations/whatever, in my personal experience only the British were so openly rude and abusive about it, the others were usually by far more subtle lol. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

18 minutes ago, nudge said:

It is interesting you say that, because having spent prolonged periods of time in a number of countries, I would say that while all of them definitely have their fair share of people who hold less than favourable views (I'm being generous here) about other races/countries/nations/whatever, in my personal experience only the British were so openly rude and abusive about it, the others were usually by far more subtle lol. 

From my personal experience I think the US, Italy, and China are probably the best at in your face racism. But yeah, I think it exists everywhere - it just seems different cultures have different degrees of accepting it out in the open.

[Stan]

The irony being when you call out people on their racist views they don't like it at all . 

But being on the end of the racist comments, apparently we're just meant to get on with it and not take it so seriously  

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Stan said:

The irony being when you call out people on their racist views they don't like it at all . 

But being on the end of the racist comments, apparently we're just meant to get on with it and not take it so seriously  

Just had a women on Facebook tell me that black people are better of because if positive discrimination 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Just had a women on Facebook tell me that black people are better of because if positive discrimination 

My response was "shut up you racist old women. Go back to the 70s". 

[Stan]

3 hours ago, Azeem said:

Those idiots should learn their own history before saying go back where you came from, a reason why there are lots of South Asians in Britain similarly Turks in Germany is because they imported man power from these places after killing each other in WWs. 

This was all your idea

It's not even that. It's the fact I'm from this country and was born here.

So whenever they say 'go back to where you were born' I do actually say 'what? You want me to go back to Ashford?'

Then more racism comes out 'no, go back to where you're really from'. Pricks.

[Guest]

When the slave trade was abolished in England what happened to the ex slaves? Have some of the black people been in the country for several 4 generations or so?

[Guest]

@nudge which countries are the most and least racist in your experience?

[nudge]

6 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@nudge which countries are the most and least racist in your experience?

I don't think it's a question that can be answered to be honest, for numerous reasons. How do you quantify something like that? Xenophobia and racism exists in every society, might just be expressed in hundreds of different ways, and my limited personal experiences don't qualify me to pass a judgement like that, especially considering that I'm white.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, nudge said:

I don't think it's a question that can be answered to be honest, for numerous reasons. How do you quantify something like that? Xenophobia and racism exists in every society, might just be expressed in hundreds of different ways, and my limited personal experiences don't qualify me to pass a judgement like that, especially considering that I'm white.

It's interesting that you will probably see people from the same country with completely different ideas on how bad it is. I use to work in building now I work as a chef. Racism is substantially worse in building. Catering it isn't that bad at all. Possibly because a lot of different races work together. There's also a lot less homophobia in catering. I guess if I hadn't worked in building I wouldn't know how bad it can be.

[MUFC]

Could be a race war in the UK if it carries on like this.