Klopp v Pep

[Inverted]

I think the fundamental difference between them is that Pep makes a game plan which, if the players execute and if the opposition reacts to as expected, will deliver a win. 

He wants to minimise chance as a factor and be as dominant as possible. 

Klopp seems to prepare his team with less of a total plan and more of a series of tools they can use depending on how the game is going. His teams are prepared to roll more with the punches and respond to the flow of the game. 

He accepts that randomness and uncertainty are inevitable, and instead wants his players to be mentally and tactically prepared for it. 

So you could perhaps say that Guardiola at his best makes teams that are closer to perfection, but Klopp makes teams that are more resilient and adaptable. 

They are pretty much at cross-purposes when it comes to trying to compare them. Rather than trying to say which is a better manager, it's more useful to think about which approach makes fundamentally more sense to you.

 

[Cicero]

15 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Chelsea fans are all going to say Pep, because he is their kind of manager...only he didn't fancy them and turned them down!

I don't know how you can really tell them apart, Klopp sees like a sounder guy who hates Tories but Guardiola hates Madirsta too. Both great managers, not much between them.

Imagine trying to play a high line and possession football with a CB pairing of a 33 year old John Terry and Ivanovic with Ramires as the holding midfielder. 

He'd need 300 million to be successful.  AVB was probably a good representation of what his time with us would of looked like. 

[DeadLinesman]

17 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Imagine trying to play a high line and possession football with a CB pairing of a 33 year old John Terry and Ivanovic with Ramires as the holding midfielder. 

He'd need 300 million to be successful.  AVB was probably a good representation of what his time with us would of looked like. 

He’s already spent 3/4 billion at Citeh. Fucking outrageous 

Still not a wasteful as us though.

[LFCMadLad]

5 hours ago, Cicero said:

 

He'd need 300 million to be successful.  

Hes spent £400m on defenders already. 

[Spike]

21 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Chelsea fans are all going to say Pep, because he is their kind of manager...only he didn't fancy them and turned them down!

I don't know how you can really tell them apart, Klopp sees like a sounder guy who hates Tories but Guardiola hates Madirsta too. Both great managers, not much between them.

Klopp ain't British, so he can hate on the Tories however much he wants and it'll amount to fuck all, I'm sure he is more concerned with German parliament than he is with Bojo. Guardiola is also a Catalan independence supporter which is essentially big business drumming up historical and cultural grievances so they break away from Spain so they can pay less in tax. An upper class revolution if you will, they feel since they are the richest they shouldn't have to share.

 

[RandoEFC+]

Klopp's views that are considered very far left of centre in the UK (apart from Liverpool itself) aren't exactly radical in much of Europe though. The scousers will lap it up. Sadly though it probably will just encourage the rest of Tory England to look at the city as a pit of grubby, self-righteous, self-pitying, unemployed scroungers with a chip on their shoulder. That's the power of rhetoric though. I'm turning into @The Artful Dodger .

[Michael]

I honestly don't think that there is a debate here. I think that Klopp has proven to be the more competent manager if we take everything into account. He has achieved success after success with the clubs he has managed. He worked wonders at Mainz on such a low budget. He then joined Dortmund, the season after Dortmund had just finished 13th in the Bundesliga under their previous manager Thomas Doll. Klopp inevitably proceeded to do a stellar job at Dortmund, where he transformed them into a top side once again. He helped them to win two Bundesliga titles and guided them to a Champions League final, where they narrowly lost to Bayern Munich. 

Since he has arrived at Liverpool, he has gradually improved the squad and he has finally turned them into world beaters. Liverpool won the Champions League two seasons ago and they won their first Premier League title in 30 years last season. Klopp has drastically improved every club that he has managed and he deserves a lot of kudos for that. 

Guardiola on the other hand has always been at clubs that were already dominant in their respective leagues. Guardiola admittedly did well when he started off his managerial career in charge of a world class Barcelona team. Although he has won league titles at Bayern and Man City, more is expected of managers at these clubs. A strong performance in Europe is usually banked on at these clubs. Guardiola was given huge amounts of money to spend by both respective clubs, to help him reach success with them. However, he has failed to reach a single Champions League semi final with Man City since he has been their manager. While at Bayern, he took over after the German champions had just won the Champions League in 2013, under the management of Heynckes. Despite this, Guardiola failed to reach a single Champions League final in the three years that he was Bayern's manager.

I mean we have already seen Man City fall apart against Leicester City this season and it is no surprise that Liverpool are hot favourites to retain their Premier League title. Guardiola certainly deserves respect for the titles that he has won at the clubs that he has managed, but I don't think that we can compare his achievements to the overall success that Klopp has accomplished. Klopp essentially transformed both Dortmund and Liverpool into world class sides, while Guardiola has managed clubs who were already favourites to win their respective leagues the moment he joined them.

[RandoEFC+]

Guardiola's record at Bayern is underwhelming but you can't just dismiss his success in England as City already being dominant. That's just objectively false. They have mental resources but not to the extent that they're automatically going to win the league. The season before last they were pushed to record breaking levels by Liverpool and rose to the challenge. They were the first team to hit the 100 point mark as well before that.

You also need to bring balance to your argument by not pretending that nothing happened between Klopp's peak at Dortmund and his appointment at Liverpool.

Both men brought revolutionary tactics to the table in modern football. Klopp did it a bit more recently than Guardiola, and I think Klopp has the edge on what he has achieved in England. The one thing this debate isn't, though, is a no brainer. It really does my head in when people act like a clearly fair debate has a 100% correct answer.

[LFCMadLad]

11 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Guardiola's record at Bayern is underwhelming but you can't just dismiss his success in England as City already being dominant. That's just objectively false. They have mental resources but not to the extent that they're automatically going to win the league. The season before last they were pushed to record breaking levels by Liverpool and rose to the challenge. They were the first team to hit the 100 point mark as well before that.

You also need to bring balance to your argument by not pretending that nothing happened between Klopp's peak at Dortmund and his appointment at Liverpool.

Both men brought revolutionary tactics to the table in modern football. Klopp did it a bit more recently than Guardiola, and I think Klopp has the edge on what he has achieved in England. The one thing this debate isn't, though, is a no brainer. It really does my head in when people act like a clearly fair debate has a 100% correct answer.

I should have asked the question in the original post.... Who would you rather have at your club?

[Cicero]

Klopp

[Cicero]

16 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Guardiola's record at Bayern is underwhelming

They could of won the treble in 2015. They, for the most part, were the better team at the Nou Camp in the semi final. They buried those early chances it could of been game over before the brilliance of Messi. 

[Michael]

12 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Guardiola's record at Bayern is underwhelming but you can't just dismiss his success in England as City already being dominant. That's just objectively false. They have mental resources but not to the extent that they're automatically going to win the league. The season before last they were pushed to record breaking levels by Liverpool and rose to the challenge. They were the first team to hit the 100 point mark as well before that.

You also need to bring balance to your argument by not pretending that nothing happened between Klopp's peak at Dortmund and his appointment at Liverpool.

Both men brought revolutionary tactics to the table in modern football. Klopp did it a bit more recently than Guardiola, and I think Klopp has the edge on what he has achieved in England. The one thing this debate isn't, though, is a no brainer. It really does my head in when people act like a clearly fair debate has a 100% correct answer.

I did say that Guardiola deserves credit for the title that he won at Man City. However, when he first joined Man City in 2016, they were hot favourites for the title and Guardiola spent a huge amount of money during that summer. In fact, Guardiola has spent hundreds of millions on new players since he arrived at Manchester City. Lets look at the facts: 2016/17 season he spent  €215 million on new players, 2017/18 season he spent  €318 million on new players, 2018/19 he spent  €79 million on new players and in the 2019/20 season he spent  €167 million on new players. That's a total of  €779 million spent on new players in his first 4 seasons as manager and that's not including the money City spent this summer. When you spend that amount of money you do expect ultimate success, especially when you were already a top side to start with. City were clear favourites for the title at the start of the 2016/17 and 2017/18 seasons. 

Moreover, in all the seasons he has been manager at City, not being able to go beyond the quarter finals of the Champions League is a bit underwhelming, wouldn't you say? I reiterate, I am not dismissing City's league title success in 2017/18, that was an excellent achievement. But considering the team that Guardiola already had at City when he joined, as well as taking into account the phenomenal amounts of money he has spent on new players since he has been at the club, then I think that a lot of people would have expected much more from him. Lets be honest, at the elite clubs, the League title and the Champions League trophy are the priority for such clubs. What Guardiola has achieved at his time at City is 1 League title in 4 seasons and not being able to go beyond the Champions League quarter final. 

Contrast that to Klopp, who has spent much less in the 5 years he has been at Merseyside compared to the 4 years Pep has been in Manchester( €572 million spent over 5 seasons compared to Pep's €779 million spent in just 4 seasons). Klopp has won a Premier League title and a Champions League title as well as finishing as losing finalists in the Champions League the season before their triumph in Europe. As it stands right now, I think that most neutral people would say that Liverpool look like the stronger side. 

[Happy Blue]

12 hours ago, DeadLinesman said:

He’s already spent 3/4 billion at Citeh. Fucking outrageous 

Still not a wasteful as us though.

He had to replace a whole team nearly due to age so that's where most the money went

[Spike]

Klopp has no chill, he freaked out today during an interview when Roy Keane said 'Liverpool had a few sloppy moments' and essentially Klopp replied 'Sloppy!? SLOPPY? There was no sloppy, there was nothing sloppy, the team played well I think you watched a different game because we weren't sloppy'. When Roy Keane is looking at you like you need to calm down and stop talking shit, you probably should.

[LFCMadLad]

4 minutes ago, Spike said:

Klopp has no chill, he freaked out today during an interview when Roy Keane said 'Liverpool had a few sloppy moments' and essentially Klopp replied 'Sloppy!? SLOPPY? There was no sloppy, there was nothing sloppy, the team played well I think you watched a different game because we weren't sloppy'. When Roy Keane is looking at you like you need to calm down and stop talking shit, you probably should.

Why? Roy Keane is a failed manager and a gobshite! Klopp is a seriel winning machine. 

I know who id listen to. 

[Spike]

1 minute ago, LFCMadLad said:

Why? Roy Keane is a failed manager and a gobshite! Klopp is a seriel winning machine. 

I know who id listen to. 

IT was embarrassing to listen to

[Danny]

9 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Guardiola's record at Bayern is underwhelming but you can't just dismiss his success in England as City already being dominant. That's just objectively false. They have mental resources but not to the extent that they're automatically going to win the league. The season before last they were pushed to record breaking levels by Liverpool and rose to the challenge. They were the first team to hit the 100 point mark as well before that.

You also need to bring balance to your argument by not pretending that nothing happened between Klopp's peak at Dortmund and his appointment at Liverpool.

Both men brought revolutionary tactics to the table in modern football. Klopp did it a bit more recently than Guardiola, and I think Klopp has the edge on what he has achieved in England. The one thing this debate isn't, though, is a no brainer. It really does my head in when people act like a clearly fair debate has a 100% correct answer.

How many managers have won 3 Bundesligas in a row? Alongside two German Cups too.

This is how good Pep is, no other manager could win the amount of domestic silverware he does and be considered underwhelming. Just doesn’t exist.

[Happy Blue]

12 hours ago, LFCMadLad said:

Hes spent £400m on defenders already. 

It needed spending because he had to replace all the defense due to age  Sagna, Zabaleta, Fernando, Kolarov, Caballero, Clichy, Yaya, Navas, Kompany

[RandoEFC+]

1 hour ago, Danny said:

How many managers have won 3 Bundesligas in a row? Alongside two German Cups too.

This is how good Pep is, no other manager could win the amount of domestic silverware he does and be considered underwhelming. Just doesn’t exist.

Bayern are on a streak of 8 titles in a row. They also just won the Champions League which he never managed (for the record, I actually think league titles are a better judge of success than any knockout competition, including the Champions League). Of course he still has to get a competent job done as manager but his record of domestic silverware at Man City means a lot more on account of the fact that there are actually several teams that can still compete with them if he does anything less than a top drawer job.

The thing about this thread is that it keeps coming back to "Pep spent this" and "Pep spent that". He's not the man signing the cheques. He's the first team coach and as first team coach he managed to work wonders for Sterling and De Bruyne, got more years out of Aguero and Fernandinho than anyone said he would be able to, improved Jesus and others too. He can be criticised for selecting Bravo, Stones, Mendy, Danilo as targets who didn't work out but it's not "Pep" that's dictated the transfer fees.

If people are going to put so much weighting on how much money has been spent, then we shouldn't be talking about Klopp or Guardiola, we should be talking about Liverpool's Edwards fella and whoever does the same job at City. People's main criticism of Guardiola in this thread is based on something he doesn't actually control.

[DeadLinesman]

11 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Bayern are on a streak of 8 titles in a row. They also just won the Champions League which he never managed (for the record, I actually think league titles are a better judge of success than any knockout competition, including the Champions League). Of course he still has to get a competent job done as manager but his record of domestic silverware at Man City means a lot more on account of the fact that there are actually several teams that can still compete with them if he does anything less than a top drawer job.

The thing about this thread is that it keeps coming back to "Pep spent this" and "Pep spent that". He's not the man signing the cheques. He's the first team coach and as first team coach he managed to work wonders for Sterling and De Bruyne, got more years out of Aguero and Fernandinho than anyone said he would be able to, improved Jesus and others too. He can be criticised for selecting Bravo, Stones, Mendy, Danilo as targets who didn't work out but it's not "Pep" that's dictated the transfer fees.

If people are going to put so much weighting on how much money has been spent, then we shouldn't be talking about Klopp or Guardiola, we should be talking about Liverpool's Edwards fella and whoever does the same job at City. People's main criticism of Guardiola in this thread is based on something he doesn't actually control.

In the same token, you’re telling me he and his back room staff don’t identify targets and ask for them? Because unless they’re signing all these players behind his back, then yes, he’ll always be judged on what is spent. Maybe change the wording. If an experiment fails, he just asks for a new player, and he’s done this time and time again at City. For all the good he’s done with Sterling and De Bruyne, there’s several more professionals and youth players that he’s totally failed.

[RandoEFC+]

Just now, DeadLinesman said:

In the same token, you’re telling me he and his back room staff don’t identify targets and ask for them? Because unless they’re signing all these players behind his back, then yes, he’ll always be judged on what is spent. For all the good he’s done with Sterling and De Bruyne, there’s several more professionals and youth players that he’s totally failed.

Like I said, he can be criticised for selecting Bravo, Stones, Mendy, Danilo as targets. But the fact that they end up spending £50m on all of them is a reflection on their negotiating team more than him. Criticise him for transfers all you want, but criticise him for going after players that haven't cut the mustard, or criticise him for not developing John Stones into the next Rio Ferdinand that he was apparently going to be, but if the criticism is how much Man City have spent on players compared to Liverpool, that's on the guys who sign the cheques. 

[DeadLinesman]

2 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Like I said, he can be criticised for selecting Bravo, Stones, Mendy, Danilo as targets. But the fact that they end up spending £50m on all of them is a reflection on their negotiating team more than him. Criticise him for transfers all you want, but criticise him for going after players that haven't cut the mustard, or criticise him for not developing John Stones into the next Rio Ferdinand that he was apparently going to be, but if the criticism is how much Man City have spent on players compared to Liverpool, that's on the guys who sign the cheques. 

Personally, I’m not actually that arsed about what a player costs (unless it’s United because we fucking embarrass ourselves time and time again). I’m just more shocked about the amount of players he gets through and bins off. Throw enough shit at the wall and eventually something will stick. Seems to be his defensive transfer policy.

[The Artful Dodger]

Plenty of managers fail with big money, it's only when you're comparing him to managers who've spent less that it becomes a valid point.

[Michael]

2 hours ago, Danny said:

How many managers have won 3 Bundesligas in a row? Alongside two German Cups too.

This is how good Pep is, no other manager could win the amount of domestic silverware he does and be considered underwhelming. Just doesn’t exist.

I would never use the term underwhelming to describe Guardiola's spell as Bayern manager, as he clearly did very well domestically with them. However, Bayern have won every Bundesliga League title since Heynckes won the treble with Bayern in 2013. They have won plenty of German Cups during that period as well, so they were a dominant force in Germany with or without Guardiola in charge. The issue is that he failed to maintain the success level that Heynckes achieved in Europe with Bayern. 

That Bayern side was arguably the best side in Europe, yet they failed to reach a single Champions League final under Guardiola. Like it or not, the Champions League has always been the most prestigious and prized trophy for the elite clubs in Europe. 

[LFCMike]