American Politics Discussion

[Stan]

Some people are so warped, brainwashed and downright stupid.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Eco said:

Agree. 

I'm livid about the whole Afghanistan situation as well, but there is a way to handle a situation, and about 500 ways NOT to. He choose one of the latter. 

The Afghanistan situation is crazy, tbh. And while Biden said "I'm the President, the buck stops with me" - he then went out of his way to blame everyone he could... the Trump administration for negotiating the terms of our withdrawal; the Afghan government & military.

And while there may be truth to what he said... I don't think it excuses his role in the chaotic withdrawal. The Trump administration made no secret it would not honour international deals it didn't agree with that Obama & co had negotiated... that's why the US pulled out of the Paris climate accords and the JCPOA with Iran. Biden was not compelled to follow through with a deal brokered with the Taliban & could have easily changed the terms of pulling out.

Likewise, the US and NATO blaming Afghanistan and their military for the collapse in Afghanistan. There's probably some truth in that. But at the end of the day, that was a government propped up by the NATO, trained and armed by NATO... and they were, in effect, responsible for how Afghanistan's government would be able to survive on it's own. So the rapid collapse of Afghanistan falls squarely on the shoulders of those who spent 2 decades to spend a lot of money to create something that was not stable enough to stand on it's own two feet.

And if intelligence suggested the collapse wouldn't have been so quick... that intelligence should have been adjusted once it was seen the taliban were making rapid gains in Afghanistan over the last month.

But even if you feel for the people of Afghanistan and the devastating humanitarian crisis we can see unfolding there (and it's kind of remarkable this guy is showing that sort of empathy because usually these types are the sort that "hate those towelheads")... I don't see what driving up to the capital with explosives in your car and making terroristic threats does for ANYBODY that needs help in Afghanistan.

I think the US is at a weird tipping point. People feel emboldened to do things like this or the coup attempt in January (which has been taken suprisingly not seriously, considering it was people who stormed the head of government and were looking to hang people & brought nooses and gallows with them).

At the end of the day, the collapse of Afghanistan after the US withdrawal should be leading Americans to question their foreign policy and military actions (but tbf, we could say the same of Vietnam... or even the collapse of the Shah's government in Iran).

But shit like this and what we saw in January... indicates that the US has to deal with it's own issues of radicalisation and the spread of extremist viewpoints that push violent ideologies. Otherwise the US will end up like Afghanistan and Iran, ravaged by extremism & in the hands of dangerous weirdos.

[Dr. Gonzo]

The idiot has surrendered

[Eco]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The Afghanistan situation is crazy, tbh. And while Biden said "I'm the President, the buck stops with me" - he then went out of his way to blame everyone he could... the Trump administration for negotiating the terms of our withdrawal; the Afghan government & military.

And while there may be truth to what he said... I don't think it excuses his role in the chaotic withdrawal. The Trump administration made no secret it would not honour international deals it didn't agree with that Obama & co had negotiated... that's why the US pulled out of the Paris climate accords and the JCPOA with Iran. Biden was not compelled to follow through with a deal brokered with the Taliban & could have easily changed the terms of pulling out.

Likewise, the US and NATO blaming Afghanistan and their military for the collapse in Afghanistan. There's probably some truth in that. But at the end of the day, that was a government propped up by the NATO, trained and armed by NATO... and they were, in effect, responsible for how Afghanistan's government would be able to survive on it's own. So the rapid collapse of Afghanistan falls squarely on the shoulders of those who spent 2 decades to spend a lot of money to create something that was not stable enough to stand on it's own two feet.

And if intelligence suggested the collapse wouldn't have been so quick... that intelligence should have been adjusted once it was seen the taliban were making rapid gains in Afghanistan over the last month.

But even if you feel for the people of Afghanistan and the devastating humanitarian crisis we can see unfolding there (and it's kind of remarkable this guy is showing that sort of empathy because usually these types are the sort that "hate those towelheads")... I don't see what driving up to the capital with explosives in your car and making terroristic threats does for ANYBODY that needs help in Afghanistan.

I think the US is at a weird tipping point. People feel emboldened to do things like this or the coup attempt in January (which has been taken suprisingly not seriously, considering it was people who stormed the head of government and were looking to hang people & brought nooses and gallows with them).

At the end of the day, the collapse of Afghanistan after the US withdrawal should be leading Americans to question their foreign policy and military actions (but tbf, we could say the same of Vietnam... or even the collapse of the Shah's government in Iran).

But shit like this and what we saw in January... indicates that the US has to deal with it's own issues of radicalisation and the spread of extremist viewpoints that push violent ideologies. Otherwise the US will end up like Afghanistan and Iran, ravaged by extremism & in the hands of dangerous weirdos.

Certainly this is an odd scenario. 

Personally, we shouldn't have been there in the first place. Looking back, it's obvious we used 9/11 as an excuse to go to war with the Middle East and not much good has come from it at all. 

I was also surprised when I saw, and heard this guy, that he was worried about the situation in Afghanistan, I just assumed the complete opposite as it's rare you see an older white guy in America give a shit about a Muslim country. 

The situation where we go into these Middle Eastern countries, and attempt to change their government, is really a trend we need to stop. It's costing us a ton of lives, and ton of money, and really we are leaving this world a worse place than it was before we showed up. 

We are not the world police, and we should stop pretending like we are. The Taliban situation is tricky, as we initially funded them in our fight against the big bad Soviet Union, and in truth, our ideal goal was met as the Soviet Union was pushed back and ultimately collapsed. But now, the Taliban have taken over a country. 

From things I have read and seen, it seems obvious that not everyone within the country was against the Taliban taking over. They moved way too quickly and easily, so that is something to consider... Could we honestly be seeing a terrorist organization reform and lead a country properly? Unlikely. But their words have been promising, although words are cheap. 

Personally, I'd like see them allow those that want to leave, leave. And then work on building up the country how they deem fit, as long as they is equal rights (which again, is highly unlikely). 

I just hope things calm down and again, the people who wish to leave, are able to. 

[Eco]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The idiot has surrendered

I'm happy to hear this. 

He still won't be 'going home to his wife', but at least he didn't destroy other people's families. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

9 minutes ago, Eco said:

Certainly this is an odd scenario. 

Personally, we shouldn't have been there in the first place. Looking back, it's obvious we used 9/11 as an excuse to go to war with the Middle East and not much good has come from it at all. 

I was also surprised when I saw, and heard this guy, that he was worried about the situation in Afghanistan, I just assumed the complete opposite as it's rare you see an older white guy in America give a shit about a Muslim country. 

The situation where we go into these Middle Eastern countries, and attempt to change their government, is really a trend we need to stop. It's costing us a ton of lives, and ton of money, and really we are leaving this world a worse place than it was before we showed up. 

We are not the world police, and we should stop pretending like we are. The Taliban situation is tricky, as we initially funded them in our fight against the big bad Soviet Union, and in truth, our ideal goal was met as the Soviet Union was pushed back and ultimately collapsed. But now, the Taliban have taken over a country. 

From things I have read and seen, it seems obvious that not everyone within the country was against the Taliban taking over. They moved way too quickly and easily, so that is something to consider... Could we honestly be seeing a terrorist organization reform and lead a country properly? Unlikely. But their words have been promising, although words are cheap. 

Personally, I'd like see them allow those that want to leave, leave. And then work on building up the country how they deem fit, as long as they is equal rights (which again, is highly unlikely). 

I just hope things calm down and again, the people who wish to leave, are able to. 

This post ended up being way longer than I intended. So I'm breaking it up into 2 parts... 

Afghanistan Focused Part

I think the US was justified in it's original mission in Afghanistan - going after Al Qaeda and Bin Laden was certainly justifiable. But at the end of the day, Bin Laden left Tora Bora pretty quick to go to Pakistan and that compound he was found and killed in.

The time to leave Afghanistan was when the Taliban were left reeling from the US military action against it and were ready to surrender to the US & Afghan government. A peace deal was brokered by Karzai and the Taliban - Donald Rumsfeld and Bush rejected it though and decided to pursue the idea of "nation building" in Afghanistan.

But it wasn't like Iraq, which was a completely unjustified war. The US had a good reason to go after Bin Laden... but political and military leaders sort of twisted the initial reason of why they were there into a futile attempt at nation building. And a lot of what the US and allies did in that "nation building" was not great. Supporting warlords, some of whom are just as bad as the taliban tbh, and doing nothing really about the systemic corruption in the new Afghan government made the government increasingly not trustworthy in the eyes of many Afghans. Considering how the Afghan army had far more losses in the conflict each year, I'm not so surprised to see so many soldiers decide they weren't prepared to put their lives on the line for a puppet government that was viewed as corrupt and in some cases, criminal, rather than surrender and go back to life under the Taliban.

The sad truth is that many Afghans just want stability & despite how repressive and brutal the Taliban were, for many of them Taliban rule was the most stable period of their lives.

The next best time to withdraw would have been after Bin Laden was killed in Pakistan. But I think that could have been similarly chaotic.

I think any withdrawal from Afghanistan at this point would likely have been chaotic and giving a set date to the Taliban of when we would withdraw sort of gave them the encouragement to lay low until May... then begin their offensive in May saying the US was in violation of the withdrawal agreement. Perhaps negotiations with the terms of withdrawal should have been done with the government that was propped up by the US?

Honestly, I don't have much hope for Afghanistan to get better... at least anytime soon. We have to hope that the Taliban are "moderate" in their repression (lol weird thing to type out) and that some of these recent PR statements they've made aren't just bold faced lies. But you can't trust terroristic zealots to tell the truth.

It's likely the Northern Alliance will keep up the fight against the Taliban and perhaps in cities like Herat and Jalalabad, we'll keep seeing opposition to Taliban rule (although today we've seen the Taliban open fire on protestors...). So I think parts of the country will find themselves embroiled in civil war.

US Foreign Policy Discussion Part

But as for the US and it's foreign policy, I would hope Afghanistan would mean more open discussion about US's foreign policy and their "role in the world." I agree with you that the US isn't the world police and should stop acting like they are... or at least, if they're going to act like cops... they should try to act less like shitty & malicious cops. If the US & West are to be expected to "promote human rights" then there need to be more discussion about the governments the West hops into bed with that are serial human rights violators.

Foreign policy goals and objectives need to be considered more carefully. For too long the US does something abroad without any consideration of the blowback of those actions... and then has to react to the disasters that follow and these calamities drive the US's foreign policy... without any consideration of what the hell the US is actually trying to accomplish. That is especially true of the Middle East.

But we're not going to have candid and frank discussions about the long term goals and objectives of US foreign policy while the US political system is so divided and fragmented. When the political parties view each other as different teams, rather than people who play for the same team just playing in different positions, and when extremism and radicalisation is out of control domestically... it becomes really impossible for anyone to make any sort of long term planning of any political goals - much less foreign policy goals that will likely require the cooperation of other countries.

The US needs to start asking more of its political leaders and it's media. They are most responsible for the absolute shitshow that is US politics. They probably have needed to since Vietnam (or earlier)... but the next best time to do something that should have been done a long time ago is always "now."

[Spike]

4 hours ago, Eco said:

Well, you and @El Profesor are bringing attention to it, so I would say that you both are complaining about it. Whether you want to say it's prove that 'America is the worst empire', or that it's 'cringy' still is complaining about the use the language .When in this very reply, in which you ask why America, 'feels the need to alter very old language', is complaining about the actions within America. 

If you think I was calling you an idiot by explaining the language, then you need to relax, because I never said anything about you being an idiot nor was it my intention to talk down to you. I was simply stating why Latinx has come about in case you didn't know, and the same for @El Profesor, as I don't expect everyone to understand WHY things are done in this country, so I was simply trying to explain in case you didn't know. 

Also, language is fluid and is always changing. Do we still speak in Old English? No, because language changes and evolves over time, so it's most certainly incorrect to say we as Americans feel the NEED to change a language, and the language does that itself naturally. In fact, it would highly irregular if Language didn't evolve...

Lastly, you say that when you get upset about something, that I get up your arse about it? That's simply not true. I leave a lot alone because it's honestly not worth my time. You constantly bash America, yet you remain here. Now, I don't know all the reasoning which is why I don't judge, but in all honesty, I'm not sure why you get all emotional when someone, particular myself, tries to respond to you with a differing view then yours? 

Absolutely nothing I said was an attack on your personally. Nothing. 

Whether you mean to or not I always feel you are talking down to me, as if I were a child and it is very grating and condescending. I respond to people how I think they are talking to me, so you might think ‘I’m emotional’ or whatever, but maybe I’m not the problem here, maybe you have ab abrasive writing style, maybe I have an abrasive writing style too and we butt heads. I just find it odd you feel the need to explain gendered language conventions of Spanish to a Brazilian. 

Languages do change but you don’t have a foreign government policing it do you? Wouldn’t you find it strange if the Italian government were tweaking the languages you speak as if there is something inherently wrong with it? The implication they know better and there is an immorality in the language. I don’t care either way, I just gave my opinion on it, people can do what they want with it. It is such a pointless problem that it surprises me it goes all the way to the top of America, that is why it is cringe. Do we change Mexicano to Mexicanx? 

I ‘bash’ America because I live here, am I not allowed to? Is my impression somehow less than others? I also stand up for America quite a lot, but apparently that isn’t worth the time reading as you said (this is exactly what I mean, how kind of you grace me with a quote!). I am also very critical of Australia ask @Devil-Dick Willie, even more so than America, you’ll find many posts criticising Australia. But don’t let that get in the way of my Anti-Americanisms.

It very difficult to move a family to another country, expensive, stressful, especially during a world wide pandemic. If I could I would but for now I am here, stranded, without family, without friends. Thanks for your ‘time’.

[Azeem]

Latinistani

[Azeem]

Eco

Eca

Ecx

[Spike]

21 minutes ago, Khan of TF365 said:

Latinistani

How is their top order?

[Honey Honey]

It's about time the US pulled out of Korea and let Kim Jong Un have all of it. Isn't that right Joe

[Eco]

13 hours ago, Spike said:

Whether you mean to or not I always feel you are talking down to me, as if I were a child and it is very grating and condescending. I respond to people how I think they are talking to me, so you might think ‘I’m emotional’ or whatever, but maybe I’m not the problem here, maybe you have ab abrasive writing style, maybe I have an abrasive writing style too and we butt heads. I just find it odd you feel the need to explain gendered language conventions of Spanish to a Brazilian. 

Languages do change but you don’t have a foreign government policing it do you? Wouldn’t you find it strange if the Italian government were tweaking the languages you speak as if there is something inherently wrong with it? The implication they know better and there is an immorality in the language. I don’t care either way, I just gave my opinion on it, people can do what they want with it. It is such a pointless problem that it surprises me it goes all the way to the top of America, that is why it is cringe. Do we change Mexicano to Mexicanx? 

I ‘bash’ America because I live here, am I not allowed to? Is my impression somehow less than others? I also stand up for America quite a lot, but apparently that isn’t worth the time reading as you said (this is exactly what I mean, how kind of you grace me with a quote!). I am also very critical of Australia ask @Devil-Dick Willie, even more so than America, you’ll find many posts criticising Australia. But don’t let that get in the way of my Anti-Americanisms.

It very difficult to move a family to another country, expensive, stressful, especially during a world wide pandemic. If I could I would but for now I am here, stranded, without family, without friends. Thanks for your ‘time’.

If you think I talk down to you, then I apologize as it's never been my intention. You have bickered with a lot of folks here, so I just ask that you also take that into consideration before saying it's someone else's fault.  

About explaining the language to a Brazilian, how does that effect you? I simply stated the reasoning behind it in a post, in which @El Profesor liked, and we moved on. Did he feel the need to accuse me of speaking down to him? No. Is the whole concept crazy? Seems to be for some, and not for others, so why can't there be any dialogue in it. 

As for the morphing of language, yeah it wouldn't bother me at all if Germany or France wanting to alter the English language for whatever reason they had, but again, how does that effect me personally? It doesn't. 

Of course you are able to bash America, whether you live here or not. Where have I said your opinion is less than others? Has it been implied? When I say that I let a lot of the bashing alone and without a comment, that is just your comments. It's a lot of things in here that I tend to ignore because I am well aware people have opinions and they are unlikely to change to just based on a few words. Otherwise, I chime in give my thoughts, but I don't attack anyone directly...

About for the moving, listen mate, I get it. I come from an International family and has picked up and moved around the globe myself (although without a family and of course not during a pandemic). I do hope you and your are able to move to somewhere that suits everyone the best in the near future, I really do. 

But let's not pretend it's the pandemic that is stopping you. You have spoken about moving back to Australia well before COVID, so while it certainly may be a hurdle now, it's a relatively new hurdle to something you've been wanting to do for years. 

[Spike]

‘Lets not pretend its the pandemic stopping you’ -  I’m just gonna say that is one of the worst things anyone has said to me on this website.

[Guest]

I was reading the other day that although America does give more to aid other countries that any other if you look at it compared to their gdp they are actually not that good. Its seems to me that every country thinks they give more than anyone. In fact I think it has been proven.  I think Sweden gives the most for their gdp. I can understand people concerns but what a annoys me and actually I find every worrying is how quickly as soon as their are any issues with poverty some people immediately day cut foreign aid. They dont look to see if there is another way we can generate money without it affecting the most poorest people in the world it's the first thing they say. The number of times I have heard some people say that we put foreigners before our own where as in reality its just not true no country does that. 

[Azeem]

38 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

I was reading the other day that although America does give more to aid other countries that any other if you look at it compared to their gdp they are actually not that good. Its seems to me that every country thinks they give more than anyone. In fact I think it has been proven.  I think Sweden gives the most for their gdp. I can understand people concerns but what a annoys me and actually I find every worrying is how quickly as soon as their are any issues with poverty some people immediately day cut foreign aid. They dont look to see if there is another way we can generate money without it affecting the most poorest people in the world it's the first thing they say. The number of times I have heard some people say that we put foreigners before our own where as in reality its just not true no country does that. 

It's investment in foreign assists. Very rarely does that money actually goes for the public works there. They knowingly give it to corrupt rulers and crooks to do their biding in return i.e Ghani recently. 

I think it was some South American country who when was demanded that loan/aid money back they simply replied you gave it to crooks who fled to your country with it, nothing was used here. Go and take from them. Chad

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Khan of TF365 said:

It's investment in foreign assists. Very rarely does that money actually goes for the public works there. They knowingly give it to corrupt rulers and crooks to do their biding in return i.e Ghani recently. 

I think it was some South American country who when was demanded that loan/aid money back they simply replied you gave it to crooks who fled to your country with it, nothing was used here. Go and take from them. Chad

Its quite interesting how people always talk about educating people. The thing is though if your first thought when ever you hear about cash flow problems in your country is to cut aid to most poor people on the planet, education isnt going to help you are just a cunt. Anyone who cares about people would ask if there as another way of finding money not just go straight to cut foreign aid. I dont think it's to bad though studies have shown over 90% of people support helping poor countries. 

[Azeem]

19 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Its quite interesting how people always talk about educating people. The thing is though if your first thought when ever you hear about cash flow problems in your country is to cut aid to most poor people on the planet, education isnt going to help you are just a cunt. Anyone who cares about people would ask if there as another way of finding money not just go straight to cut foreign aid. I dont think it's to bad though studies have shown over 90% of people support helping poor countries. 

With how China is increasingly influencing with it's belt and road initiative. Western governments will have to offer something to poor countries to counter, something they discussed recently on G7.

That's why I say it's the best for developing world not to poke either and try to get the best deals. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Khan of TF365 said:

With how China is increasingly influencing with it's belt and road initiative. Western governments will have to offer something to poor countries to counter, something they discussed recently on G7.

That's why I say it's the best for developing world not to poke either and try to get the best deals. 

It's quite interesting that what some people dont seem to realise is that some of the motivation behind foreign aid is to benefit their own country. They probably wouldn't give as much if it didn't benefit them in some way. I do wonder with China if a lot of the tensions with the USA is more my dick is bigger than yours. The two biggest economies just paranoid about the other??

[Guest]

@Eco I was reading about this women who is governor of south Dakota kristi noem. I know in America each state is like a country in some ways but its incredible how differently and at times unethically each one can be run and they get away with it.

She ignored all expert advice on covid and got away with it. Others have ignored climate change advice its just crazy. I'm amazed at some of the people in high positions in america who are clearly racist as well it's crazy. I don't think any other developed country in the world allows this.

I dont mean to offend you or insult your country mate but I'm pretty certain you agree with me anyway 

[Dr. Gonzo]

On 04/09/2021 at 16:24, Gunnersauraus said:

@Eco I was reading about this women who is governor of south Dakota kristi noem. I know in America each state is like a country in some ways but its incredible how differently and at times unethically each one can be run and they get away with it.

She ignored all expert advice on covid and got away with it. Others have ignored climate change advice its just crazy. I'm amazed at some of the people in high positions in america who are clearly racist as well it's crazy. I don't think any other developed country in the world allows this.

I dont mean to offend you or insult your country mate but I'm pretty certain you agree with me anyway 

I'm not sure that's true tbh.

But as someone from the UK who's pretty left leaning, I think US politics was definitely pretty jarring for me. There's some left-wing members of the Democratic party, but by in large most democratic politicians in the US are more close to the Tories than they are to Labour. So the US right-wing is incredibly right wing to people like us.

And think about it, we'd consider George Bush 2 pretty right wing - wouldn't we? His party, however, has moved significantly more to the right since he was in office and now many republicans think people like Bush are RINOs (Republican in name only) because of how "moderate" his positions are.

There's been an interesting political culture war in the US, but it's also kind of dangerous because the US is a super power and having too many people make decisions about things based on feelings vs facts can lead to pretty shit things happening. Not just in the US, but all around the world (cos of the whole "being a superpower" thing).

But again, I don't think it's uniquely isolated to the US. We're seeing a lot of topics that have been used to radicalise groups of people in the US pop up in the UK, Canada, and really all around the Anglosphere... and probably other countries in Europe/around the world.

[Spike]

On 19/08/2021 at 13:11, Stan said:

Some people are so warped, brainwashed and downright stupid.

It's also not necessarily their fault

[Inverted]

Idk, there's a part of me that feels that most people who get brainwashed, want to be brainwashed. 

If you're willing to challenge yourself, read, and think critically, you are basically impervious to being brainwashed. You can still be wrong and have biases, but you're not going to end up a complete fool. And all the resources you could ever need to be moderately well-informed are on the internet. Books also don't cost that much. 

Most people who get brainwashed don't want to think hard, or read anything lengthy or complicated, or challenge their own beliefs. Nonetheless, they want to feel smart. And if you want to feel smart without doing any of the things that smart people actually do, then the only way is to believe in nonsense and conspiracy theories that all the "sheep" don't accept.

It also helps if you hate certain people - minorities, intellectuals, the government - and somebody comes along with a theory that makes all your prejudices justified. Often, these people aren't really convinced that something is true - they already wanted it to be true, and somebody just came along and gave them what they needed.

So yeah, I have very little sympathy for them. 

[Danny]

13 minutes ago, Inverted said:

Idk, there's a part of me that feels that most people who get brainwashed, want to be brainwashed. 

If you're willing to challenge yourself, read, and think critically, you are basically impervious to being brainwashed. You can still be wrong and have biases, but you're not going to end up a complete fool. And all the resources you could ever need to be moderately well-informed are on the internet. Books also don't cost that much. 

Most people who get brainwashed don't want to think hard, or read anything lengthy or complicated, or challenge their own beliefs. Nonetheless, they want to feel smart. And if you want to feel smart without doing any of the things that smart people actually do, then the only way is to believe in nonsense and conspiracy theories that all the "sheep" don't accept.

It also helps if you hate certain people - minorities, intellectuals, the government - and somebody comes along with a theory that makes all your prejudices justified. Often, these people aren't really convinced that something is true - they already wanted it to be true, and somebody just came along and gave them what they needed.

So yeah, I have very little sympathy for them. 

The issue is that they don't know they want to be brainwashed, otherwise they'd know they've been brainwashed...I think it's far too common an issue for it to be something that's in their control. There has to be a link between being brainwashed and a specific way in how you process the world around you. Also you can take growing old into account, you grow up with a perception of the world and assume that's normal and then get upset when people challenge your perception. Not saying it's the same thing as being brainwashed, but feel like it comes from a similar place which you would think is highly emotional.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Danny

[Dr. Gonzo]

If we’re not blaming people for lacking critical thinking skills, then that’s a part of the problem tbh.

[Inverted]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If we’re not blaming people for lacking critical thinking skills, then that’s a part of the problem tbh.

I guess that raises the question how much do you think mental capacity is trained, and to what degree it’s just innate. 

But to me the defining feature of cultists and conspiracy theorists isn’t that they’re dumb - although that helps. The most important thing is self-certainty, arrogance, and stubbornness. 

People can be fairly intelligent and still fall down rabbit holes. Likewise, many uninformed people are capable of admitting they’re uninformed. 

Its most of all a character flaw. Almost everyone has the faculties to avoid being brainwashed but it’s a matter of will which decides if you use those faculties or not.