American Politics Discussion

[OrangeKhrush]

26 minutes ago, Harry said:

I'm pretty sure this is false. Can you provide some supporting evidence? How does the US law compare to Canada or Australia?

In Australia it says 24 weeks and anything after 24 weeks requires the expert opinion of a specialist.  It mirrors the UK where Abortion is codified into legislation and sets the grounds upon which abortion may be allowed.   I am fine with codified law because it doesn't cast unlimited blanked of choice and may only be permitted in exceptional circumstances.

Canada is the same as the US,  up until childbirth,. 

 

The benefit of codification is that while Abortion is "legalised" it is subject to statutory limitations on when it is allowed and who may determine this.  In the UK or even here in South Africa only a medical practitioner may determine this.   Further any practitioner or person caught violating statute has committed a criminal offense and may be prosecuted to the full extent of the Law.   I am fully on board with America now codifying abortion laws subject to the federalist system to which they are bound.   The Supreme Court in Roe excercised judicial overreach in that the doctrine of separation of powers prohibits the judiciary from "creating law",  the decision to set aside under judicial review "constitutional right of the judiciary as informed by constitutional doctrines" has had the effect of allowing individual states to now codify abortion and set the circumstances upon which it is allowed.

I really don't see the issue here other than the democrat party politicising identity politics again,  they had house and senate majority twice and did not codify it,  only now it is a topic because the democrats only have identity politics. 

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by OrangeKhrush

[Harry]

29 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

In Australia it says 24 weeks and anything after 24 weeks requires the expert opinion of a specialist.  It mirrors the UK where Abortion is codified into legislation and sets the grounds upon which abortion may be allowed.   I am fine with codified law because it doesn't cast unlimited blanked of choice and may only be permitted in exceptional circumstances.

Canada is the same as the US,  up until childbirth,. 

 

The benefit of codification is that while Abortion is "legalised" it is subject to statutory limitations on when it is allowed and who may determine this.  In the UK or even here in South Africa only a medical practitioner may determine this.   Further any practitioner or person caught violating statute has committed a criminal offense and may be prosecuted to the full extent of the Law.   I am fully on board with America now codifying abortion laws subject to the federalist system to which they are bound.   The Supreme Court in Roe excercised judicial overreach in that the doctrine of separation of powers prohibits the judiciary from "creating law",  the decision to set aside under judicial review "constitutional right of the judiciary as informed by constitutional doctrines" has had the effect of allowing individual states to now codify abortion and set the circumstances upon which it is allowed.

I really don't see the issue here other than the democrat party politicising identity politics again,  they had house and senate majority twice and did not codify it,  only now it is a topic because the democrats only have identity politics. 

 

So you view that the likely outcome, and the reason for all this passion from the conservative side is to prevent abortions between 24 and 39 weeks and that's all this is about?

You expect the US states to land sensible laws that put them in the middle of the pack on a global scale?

[DeadLinesman]

2 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

that's dramatic

277 mass shootings in 6 months is quite dramatic to be fair.

[DeadLinesman]

2 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

that's dramatic

277 mass shootings in 6 months is quite dramatic to be fair.

 

Edit: Apologies. It stands at 322 as of today apparently. Jesus Christ.

[Stan]

5 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

new Zealand is extremely progressive and instead of building the 10000 houses they promised they push this.   The right to choice is fine, like choosing not to have sex is one, abortion before the point of where the entity is deemed alive is a choice but once it is living it bas the right to not be killed a fundamental human right.

the outcome just means that it cannot be assumed anymore and it is down to state legislatures to determine the laws on it.  this is hardly devastating but rather a necessary outcome.

abortions are not banned so the outrage is somewhat fun for a read.

 

5 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

actually no you took it out of context.  miscarriage is a higher percentage of child loss, abortion is mostly not related to rape or any outlier but due to poor choices and not wanting the consequences.   

adopting a window to abort will be the best solution and it should be on medical aids not tax money.

The issue I have with the ruling is purely that putting a stop on abortion as a catch-all is wrong. 

Whether it's rape, poor decision-making, miscarriages or whatever reason, you're essentially taking the choice away from women. 

One woman might be raped or a victim of sexual assault wnd have to live with a child as a result of that. And now her prerogative to be able to not have that child any more is stripped away. It's a brutal ruling for women. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

nope I use the western legal definition of born alive and still born.   your law of succession which informs all western legal system's law of succession creates rights to born alive minors to inherent if something happened to the mother.   law has recognised legal personality and rights to born alive children.   this is generally accepted as being the case after 8-12 weeks depending on which country you look at.

so yes killing a unborn after 12 weeks to me is deeply immoral and should be criminalized as a form of infanticide.   12 weeks tick tock.

You’re not born alive til you’re actually fucking born 

[OrangeKhrush]

22 minutes ago, Stan said:

 

The issue I have with the ruling is purely that putting a stop on abortion as a catch-all is wrong. 

Whether it's rape, poor decision-making, miscarriages or whatever reason, you're essentially taking the choice away from women. 

One woman might be raped or a victim of sexual assault wnd have to live with a child as a result of that. And now her prerogative to be able to not have that child any more is stripped away. It's a brutal ruling for women. 

It did not put a stop on abortion,  it has just made it that each State is now required to codify abortion laws.   

[OrangeKhrush]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

So you view that the likely outcome, and the reason for all this passion from the conservative side is to prevent abortions between 24 and 39 weeks and that's all this is about?

You expect the US states to land sensible laws that put them in the middle of the pack on a global scale?

I would expect that a first world nation would deal with it the same way that involves consultation and opinion of the majority and I severely doubt that Abortion is a majority issue in the US,  it is a politicised issue.

[OrangeKhrush]

49 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

You’re not born alive til you’re actually fucking born 

Born alive is a legal principal in all western legal systems which gives pre-born children and fetus legal personality.   Testate laws recognise the rights of fetus to be testate/intestate heirs.  Unborn Victims of Violence Act in the US which has similar adoption in other western legal systems make it a criminal offense to kill a fetus when injuring the mother, ie Assault, car accident etc that results in the death of the fetus the fetus is given a separate legal personality to mean that causing the death of a fetus or still born can be a homacide.    So yes legal identity prebirth exists and has done for a lot longer than you have been alive. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

32 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Born alive is a legal principal in all western legal systems which gives pre-born children and fetus legal personality.   Testate laws recognise the rights of fetus to be testate/intestate heirs.  Unborn Victims of Violence Act in the US which has similar adoption in other western legal systems make it a criminal offense to kill a fetus when injuring the mother, ie Assault, car accident etc that results in the death of the fetus the fetus is given a separate legal personality to mean that causing the death of a fetus or still born can be a homacide.    So yes legal identity prebirth exists and has done for a lot longer than you have been alive. 

Yeah I looked at the born alive Wikipedia and no surprise that the UK had a more sane definition than the US.

What a country, less abortions because “pro-life” but won’t do anything about school shootings 

[OrangeKhrush]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah I looked at the born alive Wikipedia and no surprise that the UK had a more sane definition than the US.

What a country, less abortions because “pro-life” but won’t do anything about school shootings 

i will concur that gun laws are needed to make it harder to get guns.  

[Tommy]

The term "post birth abortion" really confused me. 

[Reluctant Striker]

It does all stem from the bible, with its comments about being fruitful. I think mostly in the more restricted Old Testament. Most Christian nations have long since moved beyond literalism. And burning or drowning of witches.

In my mind the only people who want religious rule are anti democratic & xenophobic.

It is times like these I realise America is quite possibly just 1 civil war from being the Russian Federation.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

Having an unwanted child is likely to ruin your life and the childs. 

There is a procedure that prevents this ongoing multi generational suffering. 

Pretty fucking open and shut. Sincerely, a boy who was unwanted by his parents, was left by his father at a very young age and hasn't spoken to his mother since he left home. 

[Spike]

52 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Having an unwanted child is likely to ruin your life and the childs. 

There is a procedure that prevents this ongoing multi generational suffering. 

Pretty fucking open and shut. Sincerely, a boy who was unwanted by his parents, was left by his father at a very young age and hasn't spoken to his mother since he left home. 

Yeah, I can't disagree. While I think abortion is kinda fucked up when you think about, so is the idea of bringing a new person in the cycle of suffering (Buddhism!) especially when it won't, or can't be loved. There is one thing struggling to support a child but loving it all the same, and not loving a child and supporting it out of pressure.

And there are already too many people. Reproducing is the biggest commitment a person can make and there are more regulations on getting a credit card.

[Spike]

There are more rights given to people that shoot children than mothers (and their partner). They make people have babies but don't give out maternity leave.

[DeadLinesman]

All these over the type pro life dense cunts that spiel wHaT aBoUt aDoPtIoN haven’t given a single penny to adoption charity or ever adopted a child. May they all get fucked into a sea of their own hypocrisy.

[OrangeKhrush]

there is adoption programs, millions of woman can't have babies due to no fault of their own and would adopt "unwanted" babies which is derogatory in itself.  most and I mean absolute majority of abortion cases are teen or preadolecent debauchery and the minor cases are outliers that I would agree are grounds for legal abortion.   American society is spoon fed smut, young girls groomed to be sluts by social platforms like only fans, Instagram and become overtly sexualized, cut that culture out and teach those "bible pusher do gooder" values or any developed system of moral teaching and unplanned yet negligently overlooked consequences can't arise.

the idea of extending prebirth rights and protections is founded on the liberal principal that all life is protected and sacred and equal before the law. 

anywho the big elephant in the room is democrat politician condoning violence which ironically is seditious and treasonous particularly when directed against an organ of state like the judiciary from carrying out powers vested in it by the constitution.  oh dear.   Federalism is also recoglcnised that each state has power to regulate laws within their borders when representing their constituents, finally states get the power back and the will of the majority is carried out

72% of woman voted for regulatory legislation on abortion and around 74% were against the unlimited position RvW left.    the majority of woman don't agree that their rights infringed and it is really the communo anarchist movement that want minority will.

[Bluewolf]

I can't even find the words to comment on the abortion issue.. Have people lost their minds?? Also heard that they passed the gun law that allows everyone to carry firearms in public for 'self defence' 

These two laws alone push them back to the days of the old Wild West... 

[OrangeKhrush]

Portland is having just another Portlandy day of mostly peaceful destruction. 

in lost angels the LAPD stopped a lunatic trying to kill a police officer.  hopefully they were a little rough.

 

[OrangeKhrush]

1 minute ago, Bluewolf said:

I can't even find the words to comment on the abortion issue.. Have people lost their minds?? Also heard that they passed the gun law that allows everyone to carry firearms in public for 'self defence' 

These two laws alone push them back to the days of the old Wild West... 

guns tamed the wild west, it doesn't help when dems let violent criminals out under the banner of "diversity"

 

 

 

 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

1 hour ago, OrangeKhrush said:

there is adoption programs, millions of woman can't have babies due to no fault of their own and would adopt "unwanted" babies which is derogatory in itself.  most and I mean absolute majority of abortion cases are teen or preadolecent debauchery and the minor cases are outliers that I would agree are grounds for legal abortion.   American society is spoon fed smut, young girls groomed to be sluts by social platforms like only fans, Instagram and become overtly sexualized, cut that culture out and teach those "bible pusher do gooder" values or any developed system of moral teaching and unplanned yet negligently overlooked consequences can't arise.

the idea of extending prebirth rights and protections is founded on the liberal principal that all life is protected and sacred and equal before the law. 

anywho the big elephant in the room is democrat politician condoning violence which ironically is seditious and treasonous particularly when directed against an organ of state like the judiciary from carrying out powers vested in it by the constitution.  oh dear.   Federalism is also recoglcnised that each state has power to regulate laws within their borders when representing their constituents, finally states get the power back and the will of the majority is carried out

72% of woman voted for regulatory legislation on abortion and around 74% were against the unlimited position RvW left.    the majority of woman don't agree that their rights infringed and it is really the communo anarchist movement that want minority will.

Orphans cost the nation BILLIONS. Plus the fucked up reality of being raised by strangers and what that does to people.

Of course abortion should be regulated. So 74% of people are sane. But that doesn't mean they don't want the ability to have that choice you pillock. Driving is regulated. walking across the road is regulated. Fuck you're dense. 

[OrangeKhrush]

29 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Orphans cost the nation BILLIONS. Plus the fucked up reality of being raised by strangers and what that does to people.

Of course abortion should be regulated. So 74% of people are sane. But that doesn't mean they don't want the ability to have that choice you pillock. Driving is regulated. walking across the road is regulated. Fuck you're dense. 

the choice hasn't been removed Wang tang, it just no longer is indiscriminant and will likely be on medical opinion.   Basically like the rest of the world.   people that think this makes abortion illegal are the ones misunderstanding this.

 

[Harry]

1 hour ago, OrangeKhrush said:

there is adoption programs, millions of woman can't have babies due to no fault of their own and would adopt "unwanted" babies which is derogatory in itself.  most and I mean absolute majority of abortion cases are teen or preadolecent debauchery and the minor cases are outliers that I would agree are grounds for legal abortion.   American society is spoon fed smut, young girls groomed to be sluts by social platforms like only fans, Instagram and become overtly sexualized, cut that culture out and teach those "bible pusher do gooder" values or any developed system of moral teaching and unplanned yet negligently overlooked consequences can't arise.

the idea of extending prebirth rights and protections is founded on the liberal principal that all life is protected and sacred and equal before the law. 

anywho the big elephant in the room is democrat politician condoning violence which ironically is seditious and treasonous particularly when directed against an organ of state like the judiciary from carrying out powers vested in it by the constitution.  oh dear.   Federalism is also recoglcnised that each state has power to regulate laws within their borders when representing their constituents, finally states get the power back and the will of the majority is carried out

72% of woman voted for regulatory legislation on abortion and around 74% were against the unlimited position RvW left.    the majority of woman don't agree that their rights infringed and it is really the communo anarchist movement that want minority will.

Are you aware of what's actually happening now though?

The states shown below are implementing bans on abortion. Not curtailments. For example Texas, which previously legislated a 6 week limit on abortion now has a law coming in 30 days that will outright ban all abortions from the moment of fertilisation with the only exception being to save the life of the mother.... Rape and incest are not sufficient grounds for an abortion.

 

 

[Stan]

5 minutes ago, Harry said:

The states shown below are implementing bans on abortion. Not curtailments. For example Texas, which previously legislated a 6 week limit on abortion now has a law coming in 30 days that will outright ban all abortions from the moment of fertilisation with the only exception being to save the life of the mother.... Rape and incest are not sufficient grounds for an abortion

This is what is terrifying.