Brighton 1-1 Liverpool - Saturday 28th November, 2020

[Stan]

17 minutes ago, Harry said:

I don't know why I never felt the technology implemented in cricket or tennis to be a problem, but I really feel the technology implementation in football is so flawed its hard to believe it's not deliberate.

I think the difference between rugby/cricket/tennis, where video technology seems to work well overall, compared to football is that the former sports have natural pauses, especially cricket and tennis. Every point there's a break in tennis. There's a stoppage for things to be reviewed or challenged. 

With cricket there's time between each ball. Everyone knows where they stand and the rules are clearer and far more decipherable, for example a spike in the snickometer is clear contact of the ball with something. 

With these two sports especially, there's a limit on reviews, as well. So teams/players know not to take the piss and challenge every single call. There's trust in the umpires being very precise and eagle-eyed, dare I say there's generally far more respect for officials in these sports too as opposed to football. 

The time thing is frustrating in football too. They've overcompensated with how precise and fussy they want to be that they'll spend minutes looking at such a decision at the risk of delaying the game far more than they intended. This also relates to the earlier point as to why technology works better in other sports and the natural pauses etc. Football is meant to be a quick, energetic, free-flowing (as much as possible) game. The others are too but not to the same level. 

I don't think the technology is flawed in football. It really is just how it's being used. The technology is amazing. The officials using it far from it, though! 

[Burning Gold]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Can't believe the impact of VAR in this game. Would've been 3-0 without it.

The more I reflect on VAR the more I move towards the camp that would rather see it removed than kept in its current form. (Improve VAR is still the best option)

What does it currently do tho? Four things.

1. It takes clear offsides that could have been missed by the referee out of the equation. Good.

2. It takes a whole bunch of super close open play goals that anyone watching would describe as being onside, and says "well actually when you put a microscope on it that's technically offside". Bad.

3. It picks up clear and obvious fouls in the penalty area missed by the referee. Good.

4. It picks up lots of incidental minor contact. When you review penalty box scraps with a microscope there is always little bits and pieces. This results in a much higher number of penalties awarded. Bad.

As I see it the system has eliminated the infrequent bad decisions which used to exist, and instead delivered a much higher number of controversial decisions which amount to more open play goals disallowed and more penalties awarded. That is just not what I want to see. It turns football into more of a sticklers game.

I don't know why I never felt the technology implemented in cricket or tennis to be a problem, but I really feel the technology implementation in football is so flawed its hard to believe it's not deliberate.

This is exactly what I was talking about before with the nostalgia for a past that never existed. There was never a reality when 'anyone watching' called marginals onside. Never. Those close calls would've been called offside by a linesman 50% of the time, and they would've been guessing. They were meant to give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking side, but it never seemed to play out that way. At least VAR gets it right

[Devil-Dick Willie]

28 minutes ago, Burning Gold said:

This is exactly what I was talking about before with the nostalgia for a past that never existed. There was never a reality when 'anyone watching' called marginals onside. Never. Those close calls would've been called offside by a linesman 50% of the time, and they would've been guessing. They were meant to give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking side, but it never seemed to play out that way. At least VAR gets it right

Bless you you're the only one talking sense here. It's like everyone magically forgot how many offsides used to be given when a player was blatantly onside or not given when a player was a yard off. Yes, it's frustrating when the ones the width of a squirrels dick don't go your way, but it's better than it was. 

[Guest]

@Stan @DeadLinesman @Burning Gold theres no point in really discussing it. We will just go around in circles. I dont find your arguments convincing and you dont fine mine convincing. 

[Machado]

Brighton's never a penalty for me.

[DeadLinesman]

4 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Stan @DeadLinesman @Burning Gold theres no point in really discussing it. We will just go around in circles. I dont find your arguments convincing and you dont fine mine convincing. 

So basically, you’ve got no proof. Thought so. Good argument though.

[Stan]

6 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Stan @DeadLinesman @Burning Gold theres no point in really discussing it. We will just go around in circles. I dont find your arguments convincing and you dont fine mine convincing. 

Huh? You said it was fan's fault and I disagreed (with what I thought was a reasonable discussion). Why do you think it's the fans fault? Too demanding? Expect too much? Not patient enough? 

[DeadLinesman]

5 minutes ago, Stan said:

Huh? You said it was fan's fault and I disagreed (with what I thought was a reasonable discussion). Why do you think it's the fans fault? Too demanding? Expect too much? Not patient enough? 

None of that actually effects VAR so let’s be honest. I hardly doubt Stockley Park or Michael Oliver are effected by Jerry Fuckwit sat in his house in Birmingham shouting at his TV.

[Stan]

4 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

None of that actually effects VAR so let’s be honest. I hardly doubt Stockley Park or Michael Oliver are effected by Jerry Fuckwit sat in his house in Birmingham shouting at his TV.

Yeah true, I still wanted to see where the discussion went. Think we only got to a semi-circle... 

[LFCMike]

7 hours ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Bless you you're the only one talking sense here. It's like everyone magically forgot how many offsides used to be given when a player was blatantly onside or not given when a player was a yard off. Yes, it's frustrating when the ones the width of a squirrels dick don't go your way, but it's better than it was. 

It absolutely is not better than it was.

[Stan]

3 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

It absolutely is not better than it was.

If we're talking correcting decisions only, then it is. As in getting the right outcome. 

 

If we're talking how it's done and how it's affected the game as a whole, the flow of each match and the time it takes to come to a decision then it definitely isn't better. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Stan said:

Huh? You said it was fan's fault and I disagreed (with what I thought was a reasonable discussion). Why do you think it's the fans fault? Too demanding? Expect too much? Not patient enough? 

I didn't mean it was the fans fault the mistakes are made. What I mean is fans are over exaggerating things. For example there were loads of debates and arguments before var. If we got rid of it we would go back to arguing about ref mistakes. Seeing as you support var you would probably agree. Also every fan seems to think they're team is hard done by. They can't all be right. A lot of decisions are slightly subjective. You win some you loose some. Also fans seem to think they know more than referees. They dont!! Look at football compared to rugby. Ultimate respect for the referee in rugby. Mistakes get made in rugby fans dont go around accusing the referee of being biased, they dont go around saying personal things about him. They point them out but that is it.   The fact is if we had some super computer that got every decision exactly right and 100% consistent fans would still moan. Football fans are wingers. That's my opinion.

[Stan]

9 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

I didn't mean it was the fans fault the mistakes are made. What I mean is fans are over exaggerating things. For example there were loads of debates and arguments before var. If we got rid of it we would go back to arguing about ref mistakes. Seeing as you support var you would probably agree. Also every fan seems to think they're team is hard done by. They can't all be right. A lot of decisions are slightly subjective. You win some you loose some. Also fans seem to think they know more than referees. They dont!! Look at football compared to rugby. Ultimate respect for the referee in rugby. Mistakes get made in rugby fans dont go around accusing the referee of being biased, they dont go around saying personal things about him. They point them out but that is it.   The fact is if we had some super computer that got every decision exactly right and 100% consistent fans would still moan. Football fans are wingers. That's my opinion.

Some of what you've said I do agree with and had already mentioned before so no wonder we're going round and round  . Things like how tech works in other sports and confusion of what refs do and how they implement the rules.

Football fans are tribal and passionate, that won't ever change. Misunderstood what you meant by fans fault. 

Let's face it, when you have some players not knowing what the rules are, what hope does anyone else have? There's something fundamentally wrong when the people playing the game aren't satisfied or clear on what rules are. 

The solution isn't to scrap VAR and have it sent in to some abyss. The only way it gets better is if the sport as a whole learns from it and actively responds to how players and managers feel. The worst thing to happen is for players to start following fans in falling out of love with the game. Something needs to happen. I personally don't think the answer is to get rid of VAR but to make the usage of it better. 

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Stan said:

Some of what you've said I do agree with and had already mentioned before so no wonder we're going round and round  . Things like how tech works in other sports and confusion of what refs do and how they implement the rules.

Football fans are tribal and passionate, that won't ever change. Misunderstood what you meant by fans fault. 

Let's face it, when you have some players not knowing what the rules are, what hope does anyone else have? There's something fundamentally wrong when the people playing the game aren't satisfied or clear on what rules are. 

The solution isn't to scrap VAR and have it sent in to some abyss. The only way it gets better is if the sport as a whole learns from it and actively responds to how players and managers feel. The worst thing to happen is for players to start following fans in falling out of love with the game. Something needs to happen. I personally don't think the answer is to get rid of VAR but to make the usage of it better. 

Seems we agree for the most part. In a way I suppose it depends in how you react to decisions you dont understand. I'm very aware of my own lack of knowledge so when I see a decisions I dont understand I assume there may be a reason. If you look at how many people referee in england it is very clear to me you have to be very good to get to premier league level. So I don't just assume they are being incompetent when they get things wrong because I know it must be hard. At the same time doesn't mean I think we should just except the mistakes. I just don't think throwing personal insults is necessary.  I think var needs to be made faster so it doesn't stop the enjoyment of the game. I think things need to be explained clearer to fans. E.g the offside rule needs to be explained clearer. Like I've said before there is a mix up where people think you can only be offside with a part I'd your body you can score with where as in fact it actually says hand and arms. The premier league could have come out and made that very clear. I have changed slightly on my offside views. I think what they are doing is not giving the advantage to the attacker. I think some of the offside have been to close to tell and they should give the advantage to the attacker. However at the same time if you are offside by a few millimetres and var can prove it you are offside. However I dont think it can at the moment. 

[Danny]

Whenever I watch Brighton Maupay seems to be playing alongside one or two centre forwards in a front two or three and I don’t think that gets the best out of him

When he played for us he was the striker, with Benrahma, Watkins and Canos alongside him. The chances went through him and he scored a shedload, for me unless Brighton try to anchor that forward line more centrally around him rather than him and someone else I don’t think they’re going to get the goals he’s capable of

[Harry]

[Stan]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

Our officials would still mess that up. They'd have lines placed in the wrong positions.

It says in that clip 'even if the attacker is slightly offside'. That goes against the concept of having an offside rule. 'Slightly offside' is still offside

[RandoEFC+]

42 minutes ago, Harry said:

So a goal that was offside would have been allowed under that system? Yeah that sounds better. 

Once again, this is just moving the line. If you say that goals are allowed if they're only 5cm offside then as soon as your team concedes a goal that was 4cm offside and is allowed then scores a goal that was 6cm offside and isn't allowed, when neither goal should have counted, then it's welcome back to another 7 page thread on how we should move the line again to suit whichever team is the latest victim of the grand VAR conspiracy.

[Burning Gold]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

Our officials would still mess that up. They'd have lines placed in the wrong positions.

It says in that clip 'even if the attacker is slightly offside'. That goes against the concept of having an offside rule. 'Slightly offside' is still offside

 

37 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

So a goal that was offside would have been allowed under that system? Yeah that sounds better. 

Once again, this is just moving the line. If you say that goals are allowed if they're only 5cm offside then as soon as your team concedes a goal that was 4cm offside and is allowed then scores a goal that was 6cm offside and isn't allowed, when neither goal should have counted, then it's welcome back to another 7 page thread on how we should move the line again to suit whichever team is the latest victim of the grand VAR conspiracy.

To be fair lads, the idea is that you have umpires call if it's that close, not that you just let it be a goal. I agree with you both that offside is offside and having a permissible amount of offside is dumb, but it wouldn't hurt to have an acknowledgement that there is a margin of error on offside decisions (mostly because of difficulties figuring out exactly when the ball was played). Cricket and american football both have their own variants of this and it's more accepted by the fans when a marginal decision goes against you because of human judgement rather than seemingly arbitrary decisions based on imprecise technology. Different story for obvious decisions going against you, of course

That said, I'm not convinced it would make a huge difference in the perception of VAR. You still have the uncertainty after a goal, you're still stopping play, still drawing the lines and everything that goes with it. The only difference is you have less marginal decisions changing, which is probably more good than bad from an entertainment perspective, but you have to remember the margin of error isn't consistent. You'll get situations where a player is clearly offside but it's let go because it's within the margin of error (or vice versa). Will football fans accept that? I can't imagine so.

For me, the optimal solution is first of all get higher speed cameras, and then measure two frames - the one just before the ball is kicked and the one just after and then you overturn/confirm the decision if both frames agree, or stick with the on-field decision if not. That's obviously impractical in the era of drawing lines, but we're not far away from being able to automate it (probably with manual verification which would take about a second) at which point it would become an option

[The Artful Dodger]

Think Klopp’s got this wrong, not just for the belligerent stance towards interviewers who have no control over anything but think it creates a mood of things being worse than they are. If you keep moaning about how terrible things are surely it will seep through to you players?

I imagine he is calmer in the dressing room and is trying to fight for his club but i think he could do with relaxing a bit about it now. 

[LFCMadLad]

5 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Seems we agree for the most part. In a way I suppose it depends in how you react to decisions you dont understand. I'm very aware of my own lack of knowledge so when I see a decisions I dont understand I assume there may be a reason. If you look at how many people referee in england it is very clear to me you have to be very good to get to premier league level. So I don't just assume they are being incompetent when they get things wrong because I know it must be hard. At the same time doesn't mean I think we should just except the mistakes. I just don't think throwing personal insults is necessary.  I think var needs to be made faster so it doesn't stop the enjoyment of the game. I think things need to be explained clearer to fans. E.g the offside rule needs to be explained clearer. Like I've said before there is a mix up where people think you can only be offside with a part I'd your body you can score with where as in fact it actually says hand and arms. The premier league could have come out and made that very clear. I have changed slightly on my offside views. I think what they are doing is not giving the advantage to the attacker. I think some of the offside have been to close to tell and they should give the advantage to the attacker. However at the same time if you are offside by a few millimetres and var can prove it you are offside. However I dont think it can at the moment. 

Is it? So you can be offside with a hand then?

Think its you who is getting mixed up mate.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

Is it? So you can be offside with a hand then?

Think its you who is getting mixed up mate.

You're not gonna go over it again seriously.  NO YOU CAN'T. But you can be offside with your shoulder 

[LFCMadLad]

15 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

You're not gonna go over it again seriously.  NO YOU CAN'T. But you can be offside with your shoulder 

You said this:

Like I've said before there is a mix up where people think you can only be offside with a part I'd your body you can score with where as in fact it actually says hand and arms. 

Make ya fucking mind up mate. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, LFCMadLad said:

You said this:

Like I've said before there is a mix up where people think you can only be offside with a part I'd your body you can score with where as in fact it actually says hand and arms. 

Make ya fucking mind up mate. 

Seriously mate read the fucking post. Your shoulder isn't your arm.

[LFCMadLad]

Just now, Gunnersauraus said:

Seriously mate read the fucking post. Your shoulder isn't your arm.

No you read it! You fucking wrote it hahaha you said ... "People think that you can only be offside with a part of the body you can score with, when in actual fact it says hands and arms"...

It doesn't say hand and arms though? Nowhere does it say hand and arms!

You don't even understand your own fucking post, so how the hell do you expect us to? 

Come on mate, sort ya self out.