Premier League Referees

[Stan]

Reckon this could/will be a topic that gets discussed incessantly throughout the season and not just for VAR reasons for which there already is a thread. 

And also because a referee has actually done an interview and explained their perspective and some decisions (Pickford vs Liverpool being the main one). 

Whether you like Oliver or not, I think it's a good article and opens up a bit on referee's thoughts. For season upon season, match upon match, we've always wanted to hear from refs and this has done that to some extent... 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9129777/amp/Michael-Oliver-backs-VAR-says-Pickford-seen-red-against-Liverpool.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

 

 

[LFCMike]

Good interview and I do like Oliver as a ref. Interesting that he admits they got the Van Dijk/Pickford incident wrong and there should have been a different punishment for Pickford but there was still no retrospective punishment (not up to him I know) despite them not reviewing that incident at the time? I'm probably opening a can of worms there though aren't I? 

[Stan]

6 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

Good interview and I do like Oliver as a ref. Interesting that he admits they got the Van Dijk/Pickford incident wrong and there should have been a different punishment for Pickford but there was still no retrospective punishment (not up to him I know) despite them not reviewing that incident at the time? I'm probably opening a can of worms there though aren't I? 

A little

But the main thing for me is that he knows he got it wrong, he knows that referees do get things wrong and make mistakes and that they're simply human. It's taking responsibility for actions which is good. A lot of fan reactions towards refs/officials are heat of the moment, impulsive and instant and probably don't really help in any way. 

I think he mentions in the article that they reviewed it but missed what is now quite a big part of the incident at the time. They just focused on the offside which he realises wasn't the only part. 

[LFCMike]

21 minutes ago, Stan said:

A little

But the main thing for me is that he knows he got it wrong, he knows that referees do get things wrong and make mistakes and that they're simply human. It's taking responsibility for actions which is good. A lot of fan reactions towards refs/officials are heat of the moment, impulsive and instant and probably don't really help in any way. 

I think he mentions in the article that they reviewed it but missed what is now quite a big part of the incident at the time. They just focused on the offside which he realises wasn't the only part. 

If they've reviewed the incident and just focused on the offside and therefore missed the severity of the challenge, there should have been retrospective punishment. I know that's not his job though and it's those above him and the VAR official who've got that wrong.

[Dr. Gonzo]

8 hours ago, Stan said:

A little

But the main thing for me is that he knows he got it wrong, he knows that referees do get things wrong and make mistakes and that they're simply human. It's taking responsibility for actions which is good. A lot of fan reactions towards refs/officials are heat of the moment, impulsive and instant and probably don't really help in any way. 

I think he mentions in the article that they reviewed it but missed what is now quite a big part of the incident at the time. They just focused on the offside which he realises wasn't the only part. 

I think Oliver’s our best referee, but then talking about how they reviewed that and only really focused on the offside than the severity of the challenge. Or whether a challenge is a foul or not, then giving a penalty after reviewing (multiple times) that it didn’t happen in the box.

It begs the question why they’re only considering parts of what they’re reviewing rather than the full incident? Surely if you’re reviewing an incident, you want to consider it in its totality?

[Cicero]

Isn’t saying much. 
 

It’s like saying the shit I took this morning was better than the one I took last night. 

[Danny]

Problem is people chat shit about referees with zero evidence, my entire life referees have never been as good as they used to be. There is no balanced discussion when it comes to the standard of reffing and put simply the vast majority of people discussing referees have no experience or understanding as to what makes a referee good or bad, the actual cogs working behind a decision.

Really not surprising that Oliver comes out well here, being a referee is a lose-lose situation in this country 

[Lucas]

It's refreshing to hear an article like this but we don't hear enough from referee's, especially after the game to clarify their decision making. That's why they are so often criticised.  

I'd still like to see the ref's mic'd up personally. I'm really surprised we're so behind in that aspect to other sports but this would help us to relate to their thought process more.

I just think if we can hear them talking during the game, we can understand more where they are coming from, especially the more 50/50, contentious decisions.

[Danny]

6 minutes ago, Lucas said:

It's refreshing to hear an article like this but we don't hear enough from referee's, especially after the game to clarify their decision making. That's why they are so often criticised.  

I'd still like to see the ref's mic'd up personally. I'm really surprised we're so behind in that aspect to other sports but this would help us to relate to their thought process more.

I just think if we can hear them talking during the game, we can understand more where they are coming from, especially the more 50/50, contentious decisions.

I dunno, the margin of error in football is so high compared to other sports. I think it’d just put them under further scrutiny 

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 minutes ago, Lucas said:

It's refreshing to hear an article like this but we don't hear enough from referee's, especially after the game to clarify their decision making. That's why they are so often criticised.  

I'd still like to see the ref's mic'd up personally. I'm really surprised we're so behind in that aspect to other sports but this would help us to relate to their thought process more.

I just think if we can hear them talking during the game, we can understand more where they are coming from, especially the more 50/50, contentious decisions.

Refs and the VAR refs should be mic’d up. It makes decisions that would otherwise be slated a lot more forgiveable when you hear them talk it out.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Danny said:

I dunno, the margin of error in football is so high compared to other sports. I think it’d just put them under further scrutiny 

If they can’t be expected to be perfect (cos of being human), I think it takes scrutiny away from them hearing them make decisions in the moment. Especially with VAR, they should be speaking their thoughts with that for us to hear so we can understand why the fuck they’ve decided what they’ve done.

Even then, I don’t know if that would forgive some of the more egregious VAR controversies this season... because some instances with video review should require the refs just looking at one thing.

I think it’d make the refs more human and seem less like clueless or biased arseholes... unless they’re genuinely clueless or biased. In which case, they’ll have earned their reputations.

[Stan]

I don't mind if they're mic'd up. Like above, I'd love to know their thought processes and reactions to events. I don't expect we'll see it 'live' for ages though. Authorities and broadcasters far too worried about the odd swear word being heard live. I think there's enough heard during the game when fans were allowed in so not sure what difference that makes.

Would be great if they could still be mic'd up and then we hear their comments after the game. Would give time for broadcasters etc to edit out whatever they want.

If anyone has watched BT Sport's Man In The Middle it follows refs during 2019/20 CL from groups to the final. There's some clips of them mic'd up and the conversations they have with players, officials and VAR. Quite good and shows it's clearly possible in football. 

[Stan]

What annoys me is commentators being able to hear referees' conversations with VAR. They announce decisions before referee has signalled them. 

[carefreeluke]

Part of the problem is that the majority of people have never refereed before, I did when I was younger thinking it would be a piece of piss because I played football and watched it all the time but it's a very difficult job. When you're watching, it looks easy but there are so many things that can influence or affect a decision, not forgetting how subjective incidents can be. I would later quit refereeing as I was just fed up with the amount of abuse you get, on paper I was well suited for the role, I did my referee training, football was/is a massive part of my life, I used to play 3-4 times a week but despite it being decent money, it wasn't worth all the hassle. Some criticism is fine and expected but there was always that possibility of things boiling over and it being too much. I remember as a young lad, staying in to be ready for the match the next day and things like that, only to be shouted at for 60 minutes, refereeing an under 8s game in the local park. The thing is, the abuse will come no matter how well you perform as everyone sees everything differently and added to that is the passion and competitive nature of the game in this country which can intensify the abuse. 

There's really no such thing as a good referee and never has been at least in the way the majority of football fans view it, based on how many decisions they get correct. There are too many factors and too much subjectivity involved in decision making so referees are fighting a losing game. There needs to be more education and more done at all levels though to help people understand the difficulties of a referee's job as they really don't get any respect at all. Something more has to be done to change football's relationship with referees. Programmes like the one @Stan mentions should be more commonplace and the FA should be doing a lot more.

Generally, without criticism though, you won't see improvement. I understand people's arguments against VAR but I imagine those now complaining heavily about it, were those who complained most about referees before it came in. VAR needs to be finetuned and improved of course but it does have definite positives.

I personally never really get annoyed with referees if I'm playing football or watching it, don't get me wrong there are times where I have got frustrated but for the most part, I just let them do their jobs and only worry about the things I can control. Why? Because I've been in their shoes and that energy is probably a lot better focused elsewhere anyway.

[The Artful Dodger]

19 minutes ago, carefreeluke said:

Part of the problem is that the majority of people have never refereed before, I did when I was younger thinking it would be a piece of piss because I played football and watched it all the time but it's a very difficult job. When you're watching, it looks easy but there are so many things that can influence or affect a decision, not forgetting how subjective incidents can be. I would later quit refereeing as I was just fed up with the amount of abuse you get, on paper I was well suited for the role, I did my referee training, football was/is a massive part of my life, I used to play 3-4 times a week but despite it being decent money, it wasn't worth all the hassle. Some criticism is fine and expected but there was always that possibility of things boiling over and it being too much. I remember as a young lad, staying in to be ready for the match the next day and things like that, only to be shouted at for 60 minutes, refereeing an under 8s game in the local park. The thing is, the abuse will come no matter how well you perform as everyone sees everything differently and added to that is the passion and competitive nature of the game in this country which can intensify the abuse. 

There's really no such thing as a good referee and never has been at least in the way the majority of football fans view it, based on how many decisions they get correct. There are too many factors and too much subjectivity involved in decision making so referees are fighting a losing game. There needs to be more education and more done at all levels though to help people understand the difficulties of a referee's job as they really don't get any respect at all. Something more has to be done to change football's relationship with referees. Programmes like the one @Stan mentions should be more commonplace and the FA should be doing a lot more.

Generally, without criticism though, you won't see improvement. I understand people's arguments against VAR but I imagine those now complaining heavily about it, were those who complained most about referees before it came in. VAR needs to be finetuned and improved of course but it does have definite positives.

I personally never really get annoyed with referees if I'm playing football or watching it, don't get me wrong there are times where I have got frustrated but for the most part, I just let them do their jobs and only worry about the things I can control. Why? Because I've been in their shoes and that energy is probably a lot better focused elsewhere anyway.

Very good post. I'm about the only person on earth who doesn't think the refereeing standards are really that bad. Referees get blamed incessantly, and more often than not it is motivated by sour grapes.

[Stan]

21 minutes ago, carefreeluke said:

Part of the problem is that the majority of people have never refereed before, I did when I was younger thinking it would be a piece of piss because I played football and watched it all the time but it's a very difficult job. When you're watching, it looks easy but there are so many things that can influence or affect a decision, not forgetting how subjective incidents can be. I would later quit refereeing as I was just fed up with the amount of abuse you get, on paper I was well suited for the role, I did my referee training, football was/is a massive part of my life, I used to play 3-4 times a week but despite it being decent money, it wasn't worth all the hassle. Some criticism is fine and expected but there was always that possibility of things boiling over and it being too much. I remember as a young lad, staying in to be ready for the match the next day and things like that, only to be shouted at for 60 minutes, refereeing an under 8s game in the local park. The thing is, the abuse will come no matter how well you perform as everyone sees everything differently and added to that is the passion and competitive nature of the game in this country which can intensify the abuse. 

There's really no such thing as a good referee and never has been at least in the way the majority of football fans view it, based on how many decisions they get correct. There are too many factors and too much subjectivity involved in decision making so referees are fighting a losing game. There needs to be more education and more done at all levels though to help people understand the difficulties of a referee's job as they really don't get any respect at all. Something more has to be done to change football's relationship with referees. Programmes like the one @Stan mentions should be more commonplace and the FA should be doing a lot more.

Generally, without criticism though, you won't see improvement. I understand people's arguments against VAR but I imagine those now complaining heavily about it, were those who complained most about referees before it came in. VAR needs to be finetuned and improved of course but it does have definite positives.

I personally never really get annoyed with referees if I'm playing football or watching it, don't get me wrong there are times where I have got frustrated but for the most part, I just let them do their jobs and only worry about the things I can control. Why? Because I've been in their shoes and that energy is probably a lot better focused elsewhere anyway.

Good post - I'd say in relation to good referees though that they are the ones who don't get talked about after a game. VAR heavily affects that but then having said that, sometimes that is even out of the on-field referee's control. And as you mention, subjectivity plays a huge part. Any given day/game, even an unbiased referee could have had a great game in the eyes of one set of fans but not such a good game in the opponent's. 

100% agree about the education and awareness - best place to start that is very young. Teach the kids to respect the officials and the more it's hammered in to them, the more likely they'll carry it on as they grow up . Maybe, as they get older, get them to referee matches in training so they get the experience of what it's like having that responsibility and pressure. Having that experience may influence them to control their emotions/anger during a game and be less abusive to officials. I think a lot of it is also down to parents on sidelines - they can be worse than any players on the pitch sometimes.  

[Machado]

3 hours ago, carefreeluke said:

Part of the problem is that the majority of people have never refereed before, I did when I was younger thinking it would be a piece of piss because I played football and watched it all the time but it's a very difficult job. When you're watching, it looks easy but there are so many things that can influence or affect a decision, not forgetting how subjective incidents can be. I would later quit refereeing as I was just fed up with the amount of abuse you get, on paper I was well suited for the role, I did my referee training, football was/is a massive part of my life, I used to play 3-4 times a week but despite it being decent money, it wasn't worth all the hassle. Some criticism is fine and expected but there was always that possibility of things boiling over and it being too much. I remember as a young lad, staying in to be ready for the match the next day and things like that, only to be shouted at for 60 minutes, refereeing an under 8s game in the local park. The thing is, the abuse will come no matter how well you perform as everyone sees everything differently and added to that is the passion and competitive nature of the game in this country which can intensify the abuse. 

There's really no such thing as a good referee and never has been at least in the way the majority of football fans view it, based on how many decisions they get correct. There are too many factors and too much subjectivity involved in decision making so referees are fighting a losing game. There needs to be more education and more done at all levels though to help people understand the difficulties of a referee's job as they really don't get any respect at all. Something more has to be done to change football's relationship with referees. Programmes like the one @Stan mentions should be more commonplace and the FA should be doing a lot more.

Generally, without criticism though, you won't see improvement. I understand people's arguments against VAR but I imagine those now complaining heavily about it, were those who complained most about referees before it came in. VAR needs to be finetuned and improved of course but it does have definite positives.

I personally never really get annoyed with referees if I'm playing football or watching it, don't get me wrong there are times where I have got frustrated but for the most part, I just let them do their jobs and only worry about the things I can control. Why? Because I've been in their shoes and that energy is probably a lot better focused elsewhere anyway.

Similar story here. I was too for almost 3 whole seasons. Started when I was 17 and quit when they made cuts to policing in the lowest tiers. The money was not bad and you could do more than one game each day. Sometimes three games a weekend.

Kept some good and some bad memories like with everything in life. Met some good people along the way, and some of the weirdest folks I've come across to date. The worst that happened to me was probably having to get escorted by the police because one of the blokes I was with was having too much fun taunting the home fans. The job itself was most of the time not fun and quite mentally draining. The post-match shower was usually terrible even if the game went well. I really do believe we were all trying to shower away the guilt rather than the sweat, even knowing that mistakes during the game are inevitable 

I agree that people in general don't understand how difficult it is. You have to be focused all the time while being subject to abuse among other distractions, and it's guaranteed that you'll miss some obvious stuff that is easy to spot when you're watching from a distance. Fans disagree with each other all the time so no matter what you do as a referee, you'll be wrong and shit in someone's eyes. It got better with experience but it was still always somewhat of a relief to get a game as a linesman as what you have to do is just easier and there is less pressure on you. I don't regret getting into it at all though. Learned a whole lot about the game.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Does anyone like Andre Mariner or Kevin Friend?

[N U F C]

The thing I would like to see happen is have the referees face the press after the game like the managers have to. Would be interesting to hear them try and explain some of their decisions 

[Scouse_Mouse]

9 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I'm about the only person on earth who doesn't think the refereeing standards are really that bad.

I think years ago we cut refs some slack, at least I did. I just don't see that now. Honestly how can refs continue to screw up when they get to look at an incident a dozen times from several angles in slow motion?

There really is no reason why something like the VVD-Pickford incident shouldn't be addressed fairly quickly.

Refs are human, they miss things especially when they are being conned by cheating players but VAR should correct those errors.......so often they do not.

 

[carefreeluke]

7 hours ago, Machado said:

Similar story here. I was too for almost 3 whole seasons. Started when I was 17 and quit when they made cuts to policing in the lowest tiers. The money was not bad and you could do more than one game each day. Sometimes three games a weekend.

Kept some good and some bad memories like with everything in life. Met some good people along the way, and some of the weirdest folks I've come across to date. The worst that happened to me was probably having to get escorted by the police because one of the blokes I was with was having too much fun taunting the home fans. The job itself was most of the time not fun and quite mentally draining. The post-match shower was usually terrible even if the game went well. I really do believe we were all trying to shower away the guilt rather than the sweat, even knowing that mistakes during the game are inevitable 

I agree that people in general don't understand how difficult it is. You have to be focused all the time while being subject to abuse among other distractions, and it's guaranteed that you'll miss some obvious stuff that is easy to spot when you're watching from a distance. Fans disagree with each other all the time so no matter what you do as a referee, you'll be wrong and shit in someone's eyes. It got better with experience but it was still always somewhat of a relief to get a game as a linesman as what you have to do is just easier and there is less pressure on you. I don't regret getting into it at all though. Learned a whole lot about the game.

I believe most people will walk away from it eventually because of the all the crap you have to put up with which is part of the problem really, football's relationship and attitude towards referees need to drastically change and maybe then the refereeing standards might change as well. I've seen all sorts whilst refereeing myself or playing at Sunday league level. 

Trust me, I thought refereeing would be a piece of piss before getting into around 16 years old as football was the thing I knew best, boy was I wrong. Part of me wishes I had the confidence, life experience and understanding I have now back then as I wouldn't have taken some of the abuse I was subjected to. I wouldn't change the experience though as it taught me a lot but as @Machado said it's not really enjoyable and mentally draining.

Referees probably would get more respect if they came out and explained their decisions I agree but do they need even more spotlight on them? I don't know. I think being more active in the media with things like that would probably allow people to be more understanding and help develop better relationships amongst everyone involved but people forget respect goes both ways. How is OK that a referee can get abused the whole game then? Yes, it should be allowed to some extent and accepted, it's part of the job but the levels it reaches at times are shocking. Football has created this environment where getting on the referee's back is not only acceptable but encouraged as a positive thing.

[Rick]

I’ve never built a bridge, so I don’t know exactly what goes into it, but I still expect them not to fall down. 
 

I appreciate that the job is hard, and so it should be. There officials should be the absolute best there is, and if they aren’t then they can fuck off. They get paid well, they know the responsibilities that come with it AND they have been given a tool to help them come to the correct decision 100 times out of 100. So my sympathy for them just like my sympathy for a footballer who doesn’t perform to expectations are the same; zero. 
 

Plenty of people in this world work hard to get where they are and have to flog themselves day in day out, yet they are still expected to do a job with 100% success, so I see no reason why we don’t hold these lot to similar standards.

VAR should have been the ultimate tool for referees, but their ineptness has just made it into another stick to beat them with. Nobody is infallible, I get that, but when you get a senior referee saying “oh yeah, we should have send Pickford off but we were too distracted with the offside” is just massively piss poor, and I’m not going to give him praise for admitting the officials didn’t do their jobs properly. 

[Danny]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

I’ve never built a bridge, so I don’t know exactly what goes into it, but I still expect them not to fall down. 
 

I appreciate that the job is hard, and so it should be. There officials should be the absolute best there is, and if they aren’t then they can fuck off. They get paid well, they know the responsibilities that come with it AND they have been given a tool to help them come to the correct decision 100 times out of 100. So my sympathy for them just like my sympathy for a footballer who doesn’t perform to expectations are the same; zero. 
 

Plenty of people in this world work hard to get where they are and have to flog themselves day in day out, yet they are still expected to do a job with 100% success, so I see no reason why we don’t hold these lot to similar standards.

VAR should have been the ultimate tool for referees, but their ineptness has just made it into another stick to beat them with. Nobody is infallible, I get that, but when you get a senior referee saying “oh yeah, we should have send Pickford off but we were too distracted with the offside” is just massively piss poor, and I’m not going to give him praise for admitting the officials didn’t do their jobs properly. 

They don’t get paid anywhere near what the players do though do they? Also that bridge analogy makes no sense, there is no comparison. You build a bridge specifically to the architects plan, a referee has to follow a free flowing game and apply rules as they see them, from whatever angle they have, onto every single action that could range from an easy to see foul to a tangle of legs. The margin for error is so high because it is simply impossible to call so many correct decisions, the bridge doesn’t move, the tools don’t trip each other up and dive. There aren’t thousands of people watching your every move in person and millions around the globe scrutinising your every move.

The simple fact is there is no tangible widespread evidence to suggest that referee is worse now than it used to be, all you need for a bridge is for it to wobble or fall down. Job done.

[Scouse_Mouse]

2 hours ago, Danny said:

They don’t get paid anywhere near what the players do though do they? Also that bridge analogy makes no sense, there is no comparison. You build a bridge specifically to the architects plan, a referee has to follow a free flowing game and apply rules as they see them, from whatever angle they have, onto every single action that could range from an easy to see foul to a tangle of legs. The margin for error is so high because it is simply impossible to call so many correct decisions, the bridge doesn’t move, the tools don’t trip each other up and dive. There aren’t thousands of people watching your every move in person and millions around the globe scrutinising your every move.

The simple fact is there is no tangible widespread evidence to suggest that referee is worse now than it used to be, all you need for a bridge is for it to wobble or fall down. Job done.

Of course they don't get paid as much as footballers and quite rightly so. No matter how hard you try you will never be a professional footballer (or a good one at any rate) if you don't have the talent, whereas anyone can be a ref if you are reasonably fit.

Refs pay is still good though.

As Ive said, a ref not that long ago, we cut them some slack, they were semi pro and had daytime jobs, they didn't have the benefit of multiple replays, slow motion, lines drawn etc.

Its not an "easy job"  but it isn't a hard job and with the benefit of VAR they should be doing a helluva lot better.

 

[Stan]

21 minutes ago, Scouse_Mouse said:

Of course they don't get paid as much as footballers and quite rightly so. No matter how hard you try you will never be a professional footballer (or a good one at any rate) if you don't have the talent, whereas anyone can be a ref if you are reasonably fit.

Refs pay is still good though.

As Ive said, a ref not that long ago, we cut them some slack, they were semi pro and had daytime jobs, they didn't have the benefit of multiple replays, slow motion, lines drawn etc.

Its not an "easy job"  but it isn't a hard job and with the benefit of VAR they should be doing a helluva lot better.

 

Not really true though is it?