UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Danny]

Let’s see how much coverage this gets going forward...

 

[RandoEFC+]

Trying to distance myself from it all but stuff like that just makes you sick. Also on @The Artful Dodger's point about Scotland taking the government to court. The courts showed before the election that they were one of the only powers in the world who could hold a government that really wanted to push the boundaries in check. The Tories had in their manifesto that they wanted rid of that situation as well.

[Stan]

13 minutes ago, Danny said:

Let’s see how much coverage this gets going forward...

 

Nothing surprises me any more these days. 

[Honey Honey]

2 hours ago, Inverted said:

Most left-leaning people in Scotland are pro-indy for the reason that they feel the only chance of ever getting a left-wing gov is outside the UK. We elected a few Tory MPs out of almost 60, and they still get a crushing majority. 

The last time Labour got a majority, it was Labour's least ever left-wing leadership, and Scotland wasn't even matter in the overall result. They would have won without us. 

There no longer really is a "British politics". There's Scottish politics, and then there's English politics, and no matter what happens up here, it's ultimately the latter which is decisive for us all. 

It's complex because Labour afaik are the most popular party amongst young Scots, but we also tend to support independence. Most people my age seemed to understand that even if you want independence, an SNP presence in Westminster doesn't really make that any more likely, and we like Labour's policies.

If the SNP have a Holyrood majority, they can demand independence, and if Westminster wants to block it they will, no matter how many SNP MPs are there.

Except in 2017 when it was the Scottish Tory's who stopped Jeremy Corbyn becoming Prime Minister.

[Inverted]

23 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

Except in 2017 when it was the Scottish Tory's who stopped Jeremy Corbyn becoming Prime Minister.

Yeah, a country spends decades delivering crushing defeats to a party, to no avail, and then the one moment when it relents in the slightest, enables a crucial victory for said party. 

The tragic exception which proves the rule. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Inverted

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Danny said:

Let’s see how much coverage this gets going forward...

 

"It's okay to stoke fear and paranoia about one group of people - but not another."

What a twat.

[Danny]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

"It's okay to stoke fear and paranoia about one group of people - but not another."

What a twat.

Ten to twenty years ago the left would have had you believe we lived in a post-racist society and that level of ignorance is really playing out now. The rise of racism, islamophobia and anti-EU sentiment in this country is becoming a greater threat to those it effects day by day, though for them it’s unfortunately nothing new. Whilst I think Corbyn and Labour would have been better voted in than Johnson and the Tories, the fact that the two biggest parties in Britain have a system issue with racism, islamophobia and anti-semi time in general is daunting. Even the Greens jumped on the classic Islamophobic rhetoric of questioning Halal meat.

The worst thing about it all is that largely the people who vote in anti-EU politics, racist and islamophobic politics rarely are effected by the so called issues they raise with EU migrants, African/Caribbean/Asian migrants and Muslim migrants. Look how London voted, we are seen as a metropolitan elite to smear our liberal politics yet when people talk negatively about London in terms of crime, demographics etc they are not referencing anyone that would fall under the bracket of “metropolitan elite”.

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Danny said:

Ten to twenty years ago the left would have had you believe we lived in a post-racist society and that level of ignorance is really playing out now. The rise of racism, islamophobia and anti-EU sentiment in this country is becoming a greater threat to those it effects day by day, though for them it’s unfortunately nothing new. Whilst I think Corbyn and Labour would have been better voted in than Johnson and the Tories, the fact that the two biggest parties in Britain have a system issue with racism, islamophobia and anti-semi time in general is daunting. Even the Greens jumped on the classic Islamophobic rhetoric of questioning Halal meat.

The worst thing about it all is that largely the people who vote in anti-EU politics, racist and islamophobic politics rarely are effected by the so called issues they raise with EU migrants, African/Caribbean/Asian migrants and Muslim migrants. Look how London voted, we are seen as a metropolitan elite to smear our liberal politics yet when people talk negatively about London in terms of crime, demographics etc they are not referencing anyone that would fall under the bracket of “metropolitan elite”.

I don't think humanity will ever be rid of racism. Fear of "the other" is an effective political strategy to get votes (and is nothing new and certainly never went away at any point in our history) because of how tribal people are - it's an easy way to paint an "us vs. them" situation. I don't think humans have the capacity to not be racist or xenophobic... and even if they do, I imagine some other type of bigotry would take it's place. Tribalism is in our nature & it allows emotion to beat out reason.

Sad, but true.

The London thing is also pretty easily explained, tbh. For decades we've seen Westminster throw money at London and comparatively neglect the rest of the country - we've seen towns around London have massive spikes in population, while cities around the country have eroded... because there's less opportunity in peoples' hometowns, so more and more people move to London. To be honest, I have no idea if that's anything new or not - I imagine it's probably not, London's always been a bigger hub for business than anywhere else in the country. It's the business, media, and cultural capital of the UK... as well as the actual fucking capital. It stands to reason that throughout history, people have left the city they come from to go to London because of higher opportunity. But people, rightly, feel irritated when they see their cities and towns neglected and money has been funneled to London.

I'd argue that's actually a big part of why we've seen a rise in populism in the UK. That disdain for the status quo of London first + Tory scapegoating of the EU for most of the domestic problems is a big part in why so much of the rest of the nation has fallen in love with EU-skepticism. When people point at London's high crime statistics... I feel like people always need to be reminded there are more than 7 times as many people in London as the next biggest UK city. And what people discussing crime statistics should really doing when comparing crime rates is looking at the per capita statistics.

In any case, if the UK wanted to address the disdain towards London... we'd need a government that doesn't just prioritise London & particularly the City of London (which the financial sector won't stand for - and as they're the biggest portion of our GDP, they've got an enormous amount of clout). It's not exactly an easy fix. And if you want to address people talking negatively about London in respect to understanding crime statistics... well we'd need more educational funding around the country. Which we need regardless tbh, before critical thinking is completely killed off.

One thing I'm looking forward to in a post-Brexit UK is that the government's failings will have to fall on the shoulders of the government - after Brexit it would be so hard for anyone to point the finger at the EU for the shit our government has failed the country in.

[Honey Honey]

2 hours ago, Inverted said:

Yeah, a country spends decades delivering crushing defeats to a party, to no avail, and then the one moment when it relents in the slightest, enables a crucial victory for said party. 

The tragic exception which proves the rule. 

We are discussing here the impact of their "no longer" being British politics in Scotland, in your words. That is at best 3 general elections old (we've had 3 in 4 years), evidence for beyond that is fairly scant. So I refute the notion that it is some kind of exception to your rule.

 

26 minutes ago, Danny said:

Ten to twenty years ago the left would have had you believe we lived in a post-racist society and that level of ignorance is really playing out now. The rise of racism, islamophobia and anti-EU sentiment in this country is becoming a greater threat to those it effects day by day, though for them it’s unfortunately nothing new. Whilst I think Corbyn and Labour would have been better voted in than Johnson and the Tories, the fact that the two biggest parties in Britain have a system issue with racism, islamophobia and anti-semi time in general is daunting. Even the Greens jumped on the classic Islamophobic rhetoric of questioning Halal meat.

An animal rights activist when directly asked about halal meat can't say he'd ban it because of his Christian love for animals without being called an Islamophobe. If we follow the premise of your argument, 10-20 years ago animal rights activists would be alright with halal meat?

[The Artful Dodger]

Every right to question Halal, but you must also question Kosher, which seems to have been unquestioned until now when people tag it on to end of their rant about Halal? Happily ban both of them myself.

The Jewish Chronicle article being published is unsurprising, Pollard the editor is a very right wing editor and was one of the most fervent in the attempts to paint Corbyn as an anti-Semitic Svengali, almost comparable to the Nazis. His paper is vehemently anti-Muslim and sees the Israeli-Palestine conflict of one of civilisation versus barbarism. Pre election there were some risible attempts to make this about anti racism but now the Tories are safely installed you'll see the reality of what people like Pollard believe.

Pollard isn't representative of the Jewish population though, we mustn't dismiss their very real concerns because of his thinly veiled bigotry.

FWIW, though the tone of Phillips' argument is clearly one of hate and dislike of Muslims for a variety of reasons, there is a clumsiness around the word 'Islamaphobia'. Being critical of the religion of Islam is not something which should be discouraged, in fact we don't want it spreading beyond a private belief of some British citizens, same as any other religion. Anti-Muslim bigotry would perhaps describe what people want to defend against. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by The Artful Dodger

[6666]

Just the man we need.

 

[Inverted]

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/12/the-reason-keir-starmer-sounds-middle-class-is-that-he-is-in-fact-working-class/

Hate linking to the spectator, but this makes an important point about class and the leadership. Starmer is derided as the London elite while Jess Philips is held as the peak of mince and potatoes Northern authenticity, when the exact opposite is the case. 

I've felt the exact same pressure described in the article when amongst classmates in law school, in job interviews, in internships, speaking to people who come from generations of lawyers and professionals, or internationally esteemed academics.

Because I'm the first generation to go to uni, and because my dad was a taxi driver and my grandad was a delivery driver, I end up acting more "properly" than others. I'm constantly policing my accent, falling into silence while I make sure that what I'm planning to say doesn't sound stupid, and trying to fit into a place that nobody I've ever known has been before. 

The idea that a working class person is always a jovial, uninhibited, straight-talker with a strong regional accent, is an elitist stereotype, one that middle-class people like Philips are every eager to exploit. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Inverted

[The Artful Dodger]

The Zac Goldsmith peerage really is hilarious, an absolute failure as a politician and someone who once railed against the unelected Lords, now given a cushy job by Johnson. This is a cross party issue, Labour and the Tories play the Lords game, trying to stack it with people to give them an extra advantage, it is anti democratic and a disgrace that these people sponge a living. 

Extra irony considering the whole Brexit debate has been centred around 'democracy' and 'unelected officials'. 

[Honey Honey]

They obviously don't take Nigel Farage's new democratic reform party seriously 

[Fairy In Boots]

On 16/12/2019 at 14:45, The Artful Dodger said:

It doesn't matter where they're from or what gender, but I think the next Labour leader needs to be definitively working class. This is the party of Bevan, the greatest political figure in British history, we need to get to old Labour values and aggressive counterattacking the Tories. Corbyn, for all I agreed with him, was meek and mild, often letting others speak for him and insults fly by without riposte.

This and other posts like it on this thread post GE sums up most of your problem tbh. Focusing on class when in reality you should focus on basic competence. 

I’m working class all my social circle are, most of the people I know that voted Tory are working class why? Because of competence (or perceived competence anyway) and a plan over Brexit. 

Think most working class people don’t give a shit about “us” and “them” anymore think it’s tired and it doesn’t resonate anymore apart from 18-30 year olds who’re idealistic fresh out of education and haven’t spent a decade in the real world yet.  Aged 30-40 you start thinking about building your life and you want opportunity so you’re not flogging yourself in your 50’s. You dont want to be welfare farming off the state hence the political pendulum swings. Those that don’t follow this trend or are detached from it (eg not in the private sector) become embittered and hateful like Corbyn/ McDonnell etc their was a blatant dislike of those they had perceived done well. The politics of envy is dead in the 21st century. 

Three elections on the bounce should show this but instead Labour and momentum appear to be doubling down again. Political oblivion awaits. 

Also I’d give Sturgeon her ref post Brexit and tell her hard border, no £ no trade deal let her try it see how she sells it to the Scots. She will be fucked and so she should I get there’s nationalistic feeling but I’d let the Scots sign their own death warrant if they like I’m tired of their sabre rattling shite. 

[RandoEFC+]

Has anyone heard from or checked on @SirBalon since the election?

[The Artful Dodger]

2 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

This and other posts like it on this thread post GE sums up most of your problem tbh. Focusing on class when in reality you should focus on basic competence. 

I’m working class all my social circle are, most of the people I know that voted Tory are working class why? Because of competence (or perceived competence anyway) and a plan over Brexit. 

Think most working class people don’t give a shit about “us” and “them” anymore think it’s tired and it doesn’t resonate anymore apart from 18-30 year olds who’re idealistic fresh out of education and haven’t spent a decade in the real world yet.  Aged 30-40 you start thinking about building your life and you want opportunity so you’re not flogging yourself in your 50’s. You dont want to be welfare farming off the state hence the political pendulum swings. Those that don’t follow this trend or are detached from it (eg not in the private sector) become embittered and hateful like Corbyn/ McDonnell etc their was a blatant dislike of those they had perceived done well. The politics of envy is dead in the 21st century. 

Three elections on the bounce should show this but instead Labour and momentum appear to be doubling down again. Political oblivion awaits. 

Also I’d give Sturgeon her ref post Brexit and tell her hard border, no £ no trade deal let her try it see how she sells it to the Scots. She will be fucked and so she should I get there’s nationalistic feeling but I’d let the Scots sign their own death warrant if they like I’m tired of their sabre rattling shite. 

Not sure you can generalise your own experience. I am working class, nearly all my closet friends are, differing levels of income, property, relationship etc but none voted tory and don't see much positive that they offer. Its about values and worldview, obviously mine are very different to yours. 

'politics of envy' is nonsense. Just as 'politics of selfishness' is. 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by The Artful Dodger

[Burning Gold]

11 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

This and other posts like it on this thread post GE sums up most of your problem tbh. Focusing on class when in reality you should focus on basic competence. 

I’m working class all my social circle are, most of the people I know that voted Tory are working class why? Because of competence (or perceived competence anyway) and a plan over Brexit. 

Think most working class people don’t give a shit about “us” and “them” anymore think it’s tired and it doesn’t resonate anymore apart from 18-30 year olds who’re idealistic fresh out of education and haven’t spent a decade in the real world yet.  Aged 30-40 you start thinking about building your life and you want opportunity so you’re not flogging yourself in your 50’s. You dont want to be welfare farming off the state hence the political pendulum swings. Those that don’t follow this trend or are detached from it (eg not in the private sector) become embittered and hateful like Corbyn/ McDonnell etc their was a blatant dislike of those they had perceived done well. The politics of envy is dead in the 21st century. 

Three elections on the bounce should show this but instead Labour and momentum appear to be doubling down again. Political oblivion awaits. 

Also I’d give Sturgeon her ref post Brexit and tell her hard border, no £ no trade deal let her try it see how she sells it to the Scots. She will be fucked and so she should I get there’s nationalistic feeling but I’d let the Scots sign their own death warrant if they like I’m tired of their sabre rattling shite. 

Hmm

[Fairy In Boots]

9 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Not sure you can generalise your own experience. I am working class, nearly all my closet friends are, differing levels of income, property, relationship etc but none voted tory and don't see much positive that they offer. Its about values and worldview, obviously mine are very different to yours. 

'politics of envy' is nonsense. Just as 'politics of selfishness' is. 

 

 

Circles of friends yours based in Liverpool I’d assume? It’s hardly the most unbiased city in the UK. It will go red regardless of who represents them. 

Mine are spread between Stoke Hull, Bristol & Ipswich so basically the  middle of the country. I’m on the road for work socially it’s midlands dominated but I have work and somewhat social relationships with people all over this part of the country. It’s tory down south, Labour up North so it’s why I feel I get a good grasp of how the winds blowing. 

9 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Has anyone heard from or checked on @SirBalon since the election?

Lol hilarious probably contemplating what the bigots have done with an expensive glass of wine while nibbling a rare cheese on an exclusive med Island. I mean why couldn’t he grasp what the working man want? It’s just baffling how he wasn’t in touch. 

[The Artful Dodger]

On 21/12/2019 at 20:59, Fairy In Boots said:

Circles of friends yours based in Liverpool I’d assume? It’s hardly the most unbiased city in the UK. It will go red regardless of who represents them. 

Mine are spread between Stoke Hull, Bristol & Ipswich so basically the  middle of the country. I’m on the road for work socially it’s midlands dominated but I have work and somewhat social relationships with people all over this part of the country. It’s tory down south, Labour up North so it’s why I feel I get a good grasp of how the winds blowing. 

Lol hilarious probably contemplating what the bigots have done with an expensive glass of wine while nibbling a rare cheese on an exclusive med Island. I mean why couldn’t he grasp what the working man want? It’s just baffling how he wasn’t in touch. 

Well we are all biased, aren't we, by our views aren't we? 

I do have a good friend who votes Conservative, we disagree massively but I believe he has good intentions. You seem to only want the tories to win because it is upsets other people. 

[6666]

On 21/12/2019 at 20:59, Fairy In Boots said:

Lol hilarious probably contemplating what the bigots have done with an expensive glass of wine while nibbling a rare cheese on an exclusive med Island. I mean why couldn’t he grasp what the racist man wants? It’s just baffling how he wasn’t in touch. 

I don't think it's a case of him not knowing what they want but more a case of he doesn't agree with what they want. Because he's not a lunatic. Anymore.

What's actually hilarious is you painting SirBalon as being too rich to be in touch with the working class while thinking the Tories give a flying fuck about the working class. Governments that prioritise the wants of rich people always seem to be successful in convincing a large portion of the working class that the people that are actually worse off than the working class are the problem and more tax breaks for the rich will help the working man. Have no idea how anyone falls for that shit.

Edited December 23, 2019 by 6666

[Fairy In Boots]

2 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Well we are all biased, aren't we, by our views aren't we? 

I do have a good friend who votes Conservative, we disagree massively but I believe he has good intentions. You seem to only want the tories to win because it is upsets other people. 

Yes we are all biased, the news sources we gravitate to affirm our confirmation bias. It’s why discourse has broken down on social media. 

I’m not pro Tory because I want to troll (although I do so here because of the bias) I vote Tory because it’s more aligned with my principles of more personal economic freedom and less reliance on the state. 

My family are ex civil servants I view the civil service as woefully inefficient and expensive shite by and large. That’s why I vote Tory plus I think that the various poor communities are effectively battery farmed voters in some instances. Drip fed benefits so they never have to work and a poor quality of life ensues. 

I’m a great believer in hunger and desire to succeed being tempered by adversity. I’ve seen too many examples of it from where I grew up to not heed its power, successful ones vote Tory those still doing nothing vote labour, funny that.  

1 hour ago, 6666 said:

I don't think it's a case of him not knowing what they want but more a case of he doesn't agree with what they want. Because he's not a lunatic. Anymore.

What's actually hilarious is you painting SirBalon as being too rich to be in touch with the working class while thinking the Tories give a flying fuck about the working class. Governments that prioritise the wants of rich people always seem to be successful in convincing a large portion of the working class that the people that are actually worse off than the working class are the problem and more tax breaks for the rich will help the working man. Have no idea how anyone falls for that shit.

Lol you changed my post awe. 

11 days in we’re up to our genitalia in chlorinated chicken and the Yanks are policing the car parks of their newly privatised NHS Hospitals with drones. 

Except we’re not are we just fuck off with your rich vs poor shite. It’s like you’re not aware that Labour are the party that increase taxation and the Tories promised no tax hikes on Incomes, NI or VAT for the next parliament.

or by working class do you mean the “none” working class so scrounging fuckers basically? Unless you’re a genuinely ill person or a direct care giver for a person like this then benefits is only to help you get back on your feet. 

If your income is supplemented by it it’s because your net output in life is shite and your life choices so far have been shite. Why do so many believe it’s the states role to wipe their arse? 

As a rule of thumb if your annual salary is lower than your age you’ve done shit so far. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Fairy In Boots

[6666]

10 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Yes we are all biased, the news sources we gravitate to affirm our confirmation bias. It’s why discourse has broken down on social media. 

I’m not pro Tory because I want to troll (although I do so here because of the bias) I vote Tory because it’s more aligned with my principles of more personal economic freedom and less reliance on the state. 

My family are ex civil servants I view the civil service as woefully inefficient and expensive shite by and large. That’s why I vote Tory plus I think that the various poor communities are effectively battery farmed voters in some instances. Drip fed benefits so they never have to work and a poor quality of life ensues. 

I’m a great believer in hunger and desire to succeed being tempered by adversity. I’ve seen too many examples of it from where I grew up to not heed its power, successful ones vote Tory those still doing nothing vote labour, funny that.  

Lol you changed my post awe. 

11 days in we’re up to our genitalia in chlorinated chicken and the Yanks are policing the car parks of their newly privatised NHS Hospitals with drones. 

Except we’re not are we just fuck off with your rich vs poor shite. It’s like you’re not aware that Labour are the party that increase taxation and the Tories promised no tax hikes on Incomes, NI or VAT for the next parliament.

or by working class do you mean the “none” working class so scrounging fuckers basically? Unless you’re a genuinely ill person or a direct care giver for a person like this then benefits is only to help you get back on your feet. 

If your income is supplemented by it it’s because your net output in life is shite and your life choices so far have been shite. Why do so many believe it’s the states role to wipe their arse? 

As a rule of thumb if your annual salary is lower than your age you’ve done shit so far. 

I talked about the people that are worse off than the working class which means I didn't confuse them for the working class... You should try reading and then understanding.

It seems painfully obvious that you just like being in a position where you can look down on people. You're actually envious of people who don't have jobs and need financial aid because they don't have money... you should trade places with them if you actually think they have it so good. And it is supposed to be the state's job to wipe the arse of the whole country and to make society function and take care of the needy rather than to take care of the wealthy and comfortable. It's why governments exist.

And it's interesting that you're telling me to fuck off with the "Rich vs. Poor" stuff when you actually tried to claim SirBalon was too rich to be in touch with the working class. You're running away from that and now claiming it's the poor that can't relate to the working class. The working class that don't hate the poor or the different types can't even relate to the "real" working class right...?

One thing is clear, if you're blaming the powerless for problems in this country and in the whole world and are praising the powerful people responsible, then you're either a piece of shit or you're a fucking idiot that gets easily manipulated.

"Look at our flag, isn't it great? You're great, I'm great. The people that aren't like you or me are a problem". Works on insecure morons all over the world. Don't blush but you're Hitler's dream.

[Fairy In Boots]

11 hours ago, 6666 said:

I talked about the people that are worse off than the working class which means I didn't confuse them for the working class... You should try reading and then understanding.

no you definitely said working class, now your saying worse off than the working class. 

It seems painfully obvious that you just like being in a position where you can look down on people. You're actually envious of people who don't have jobs and need financial aid because they don't have money... you should trade places with them if you actually think they have it so good. And it is supposed to be the state's job to wipe the arse of the whole country and to make society function and take care of the needy rather than to take care of the wealthy and comfortable. It's why governments exist.

lol no I wouldn’t trade places, I actually said that being drip fed benefits keeps the poor docile and a poor quality of life ensues. I think you’ve missed that point. 

And it's interesting that you're telling me to fuck off with the "Rich vs. Poor" stuff when you actually tried to claim SirBalon was too rich to be in touch with the working class. You're running away from that and now claiming it's the poor that can't relate to the working class. The working class that don't hate the poor or the different types can't even relate to the "real" working class right...?

No I’ve not said that either about poor being unable to relate to the working class. Nor did I address Balon in my last post, I’m not running away from it at all, look at the history of this thread it’s 50% Balon alone and he’s woefully read the mood of the country. He’s been that arrogant over Brexit he’s become the forums Jo Swinson. It’s a shame he was a great member but obviously this topic got under his skin and made him rabid. 

One thing is clear, if you're blaming the powerless for problems in this country and in the whole world and are praising the powerful people responsible, then you're either a piece of shit or you're a fucking idiot that gets easily manipulated.

"Look at our flag, isn't it great? You're great, I'm great. The people that aren't like you or me are a problem". Works on insecure morons all over the world. Don't blush but you're Hitler's dream.

The last point . 

Think it’s fairly obvious that you either don’t understand my point of view or you are so biased against it that you take liberty with it and start painting me as some kind of Hitler youth ffs. 

My opinon is fairly simple, I prefer less reliance on the state and more individual responsibility for my own life for which I’m a fan of less taxation so more cash but also less state services. 

Quite how that comes to praising powerful and lambasting the poor I don’t know. I actually said above that poverty or adversity drives hunger to succeed. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Government is planning massive farming subsidies to counteract the effects of Brexit on our agriculture  - so much for less reliance on the state