UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Dr. Gonzo]

On 01/01/2022 at 09:41, MUFC said:

Is this a joke?

Unfortunately not

[RandoEFC+]

I'm going to sort of stick my neck out here. I don't like Tony Blair and generally wish he'd retire from ever being seen in public again. The Iraq war was a travesty and while I was pretty young when he was PM and certainly not politically switched on, I never got a positive vibe off him really.

That said, look at some of the other politicians who have knighthoods for service to the country (or something). Iain Duncan Smith whose actual name is Iain Smith but makes his middle name a part of his name to make it sound like he's a posher double-barreled guy, jumped up and down and fist pumped when his big reform of benefits fucking over the poorest in the country passed through the commons. Then there's that absolute cartoon Desmond Swayne who is an anti-mask ponce who prances around parliament in his three pieces suit and his pocket square. This isn't a high bar and it shows how much of an "honour" it really is to be knighted these days, not very much.

It's also worth mentioning that under Blair's government, a generation had doors opened to higher education and his team was also instrumental in the Good Friday agreement and the peace process in Ireland. Again, I was young at the time but I would tentatively suggest that living in the UK when he was Prime Minister was probably better for an awful lot of people than it is today. (Again, low bar acknowledged in terms of governance).

But whatever, I also don't really care at all about the honours system (although my Dad actually received a BEM a few years ago and he was pretty proud of that so it still matters to some and far be it from me to take it away from anyone) and sticking up for Blair is not a hill I'm willing to die in. I just don't see why so many people are arsed about whether he's called Tony Blair or Sir Tony Blair because it makes no fucking difference to anyone's life, he's slithering around out there either way, and while I'm at it, I thought I'd gently suggest that we don't have to always judge people off the worst thing they've ever done but this is the Internet so I'll go ahead and take cover.

[Guest]

@RondónEFC I think the Iraq war is why alot of people fill he shouldn't have got it. I do agree there are lots of people who have got knighthoods who shouldnt have. But I think alot of people feel him and Bush should be in jail.  I do think he did some good. He introduced the minimum wage and there were other things he did I think. But for alot of people the war in Iraq overrides that. I personally think the knighting system is a load of bolocks anyway, I never refer to anyone as sir. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, RondónEFC said:

I'm going to sort of stick my neck out here. I don't like Tony Blair and generally wish he'd retire from ever being seen in public again. The Iraq war was a travesty and while I was pretty young when he was PM and certainly not politically switched on, I never got a positive vibe off him really.

That said, look at some of the other politicians who have knighthoods for service to the country (or something). Iain Duncan Smith whose actual name is Iain Smith but makes his middle name a part of his name to make it sound like he's a posher double-barreled guy, jumped up and down and fist pumped when his big reform of benefits fucking over the poorest in the country passed through the commons. Then there's that absolute cartoon Desmond Swayne who is an anti-mask ponce who prances around parliament in his three pieces suit and his pocket square. This isn't a high bar and it shows how much of an "honour" it really is to be knighted these days, not very much.

It's also worth mentioning that under Blair's government, a generation had doors opened to higher education and his team was also instrumental in the Good Friday agreement and the peace process in Ireland. Again, I was young at the time but I would tentatively suggest that living in the UK when he was Prime Minister was probably better for an awful lot of people than it is today. (Again, low bar acknowledged in terms of governance).

But whatever, I also don't really care at all about the honours system (although my Dad actually received a BEM a few years ago and he was pretty proud of that so it still matters to some and far be it from me to take it away from anyone) and sticking up for Blair is not a hill I'm willing to die in. I just don't see why so many people are arsed about whether he's called Tony Blair or Sir Tony Blair because it makes no fucking difference to anyone's life, he's slithering around out there either way, and while I'm at it, I thought I'd gently suggest that we don't have to always judge people off the worst thing they've ever done but this is the Internet so I'll go ahead and take cover.

Tbf much of what good Blair did as PM, and I do think he did good as a PM (comparatively speaking, he's probably the best PM in my lifetime), is sort of all erased by being Bush's poodle and taking the country into an illegal war that plunged the Middle East, already a region teeming with instability, into even more chaos. Without that, ISIS wouldn't have existed, so what he's done is get Britain involved in the foundation of one of the worst collections of people the world has ever seen.

Any time ISIS kill anyone, in the Middle East, Europe, Africa, etc... anywhere in the world, really... he shares culpability with the terrorists.

He belongs on trial at the Hague, not getting a knighthood. And the fact that some terrible people have been knighted doesn't really erase that fact.

[Spike]

On 25/09/2021 at 05:17, Khan of TF365 said:

So if UK one day decides to have a poll to join the EU it would be Brexin?

BritIN

[Spike]

On 25/09/2021 at 05:17, Khan of TF365 said:

So if UK one day decides to have a poll to join the EU it would be Brexin?

BritIN

[LFCMike]

Someone make this Labour amendment make sense

 

[Stan]

 

[RandoEFC+]

And we're back...

 

[Dave]

On 10/01/2022 at 19:24, RondónEFC said:

And we're back...

 

I think Boris could be gone this time. The photos of him dressed as a burglar in the back of his vehicle today and the lack of Tories at Parliament was telling.

The whole culture of politics has got to change. I know there's many MP's who really care about making a difference but there's far too many who have risen to fruition over the last 15 years with this stereotypical Eton Boys mentality that needs to be eradicated for the sake of public confidence.

[RandoEFC+]

50 minutes ago, The Palace Fan said:

I think Boris could be gone this time. The photos of him dressed as a burglar in the back of his vehicle today and the lack of Tories at Parliament was telling.

The whole culture of politics has got to change. I know there's many MP's who really care about making a difference but there's far too many who have risen to fruition over the last 15 years with this stereotypical Eton Boys mentality that needs to be eradicated for the sake of public confidence.

Maybe, the rumbles are getting louder. Think he's on a knife edge with his back benchers at the moment. If it isn't this it will be something else in the near future though, goodness knows what else he's been up to that hasn't been leaked yet. There will be plenty more, and he is stupid enough to lie and try to cling on which will make the next revelations in a week or two even worse.

I think you also have to keep 'the culture of politics' and Boris Johnson's individual misbehaviour separate though. What he does and what he is is completely different from the already low bar of expectation there is of politicians on average. I cringe when I hear people go one further and say "they're all as bad as each other" because they aren't. He is much worse than Blair, Cameron or May, all of whom will have been guilty of polishing the truth for their own ends on an almost daily basis, but it really feels like Johnson just does whatever the fuck he wants, sometimes with no better reason than just to see if he can get away with it.

I don't want to be accused of re-hashing the argument of EU membership and it has become an almost lazy cliche to say you can trace the start of this back to Brexit... but you can trace the start of this back to Brexit. That was where the national debate really lost all of its good faith where one side was having a somewhat evidence-based conversation about the EU and the other side basically kept saying shit that had a sliver of truth to it and pushing the boundary to see what they could get away with pretty-much-but-not-technically-lying about. Johnson's heavy involvement in the Leave campaign is obviously linked to the way his time as PM is going. The kicking and screaming from the Remain side from 2016-2019 and trying to invalidate the referendum result was never really about the EU at all, it was about trying to subvert an electoral result which was not really fought on the terms that had previously been permitted as the minimum standard of good faith debate. And since then, well it worked for them so why change?

Anyway, there are genuinely hundreds of MPs and those who want to be MPs out there from all of the parties who are driven by a genuine sense of public service. These are the ones who rarely make it to cabinet level though, which isn't a coincidence, and in that sense I very much agree the way politics is done has to change.

[The Artful Dodger]

8 hours ago, RondónEFC said:

Maybe, the rumbles are getting louder. Think he's on a knife edge with his back benchers at the moment. If it isn't this it will be something else in the near future though, goodness knows what else he's been up to that hasn't been leaked yet. There will be plenty more, and he is stupid enough to lie and try to cling on which will make the next revelations in a week or two even worse.

I think you also have to keep 'the culture of politics' and Boris Johnson's individual misbehaviour separate though. What he does and what he is is completely different from the already low bar of expectation there is of politicians on average. I cringe when I hear people go one further and say "they're all as bad as each other" because they aren't. He is much worse than Blair, Cameron or May, all of whom will have been guilty of polishing the truth for their own ends on an almost daily basis, but it really feels like Johnson just does whatever the fuck he wants, sometimes with no better reason than just to see if he can get away with it.

I don't want to be accused of re-hashing the argument of EU membership and it has become an almost lazy cliche to say you can trace the start of this back to Brexit... but you can trace the start of this back to Brexit. That was where the national debate really lost all of its good faith where one side was having a somewhat evidence-based conversation about the EU and the other side basically kept saying shit that had a sliver of truth to it and pushing the boundary to see what they could get away with pretty-much-but-not-technically-lying about. Johnson's heavy involvement in the Leave campaign is obviously linked to the way his time as PM is going. The kicking and screaming from the Remain side from 2016-2019 and trying to invalidate the referendum result was never really about the EU at all, it was about trying to subvert an electoral result which was not really fought on the terms that had previously been permitted as the minimum standard of good faith debate. And since then, well it worked for them so why change?

Anyway, there are genuinely hundreds of MPs and those who want to be MPs out there from all of the parties who are driven by a genuine sense of public service. These are the ones who rarely make it to cabinet level though, which isn't a coincidence, and in that sense I very much agree the way politics is done has to change.

 Disagree entirely. Johnson is not 'much worse' than Blair or Cameron. Merely a natural consequence. 

Talk about 'understatement', Blair deliberately manipulated and lied to parliament to go to war. There is a direct line from him to where we are today, his contempt for the truth was just as strong as Johnson's but just more eloquently done. Let's not forget all this is at the behest of the master puppeteer Cummings. Again...without Alistair Campbell there is no Cummings.

Also disagree that most politicians are 'driven to serve'. The whole system needs tearing down, if they're not already corrupt when they get elected then they soon will be. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by The Artful Dodger

[The Artful Dodger]

New Labour bear the most responsibility for the mess our country is in for their acceptance of right-wing economics (which is the root of this all) and consigning true opposition to the dustbin of history. That's why you have a situation where pretty mild social democratic ideas are now thought of as 'extreme'. Why can't people see what's happened, christ it is frustrating. Pointing at Johnson and going he's just a horrible man is no help to anyone.

[Spike]

I voted for Corbin

[RandoEFC+]

1 hour ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Pointing at Johnson and going he's just a horrible man is no help to anyone.

Alright, fine. So how does "we need to tear the whole system down" help anyone? Because it isn't going to happen.

We might have to agree to disagree but Johnson is a compulsive liar who lives hand to mouth in terms of surviving in his position, it's burned into his psyche and he's driven primarily by two things - dodging accountability and staying in power, not because it actually gets him anything, he does it just to see if he can.

I'll hold my hands up and admit I was a teenager who didn't pay much attention when Blair was in power and while the Iraq fiasco played out. But with all of the Prime Ministers I've seen before Boris Johnson, they at least played by the rules in terms of understanding that different people and institutions, from the courts to the average voter, would hold them to account if they did or didn't do certain things. Johnson simply doesn't play by those rules and his government are actively trying to destroy them by justifying any law-breaking or broken manifesto promises by shrugging and saying "we'll be accountable to the electorate" which basically gives them licence to do whatever the fuck they feel like for four years, breaking the contract with the electorate which all previous PMs have at least somewhat tried to uphold.

I don't disagree with any of your criticism of New Labour and I have no great love at all for Blair, May, Cameron, etc. Hopefully I've highlighted why I think Johnson is worse but if you look at him and think that seeing him kicked out and even a different Conservative take power, or even see Starmer or a similar Labour politician win the next election, and not think that that's at least a small step in the right direction (which is all you're going to get realistically in a short timespan) then I'm afraid I have to firmly disagree.

[MUFC]

10 hours ago, RondónEFC said:

Maybe, the rumbles are getting louder. Think he's on a knife edge with his back benchers at the moment. If it isn't this it will be something else in the near future though, goodness knows what else he's been up to that hasn't been leaked yet. There will be plenty more, and he is stupid enough to lie and try to cling on which will make the next revelations in a week or two even worse.

I think you also have to keep 'the culture of politics' and Boris Johnson's individual misbehaviour separate though. What he does and what he is is completely different from the already low bar of expectation there is of politicians on average. I cringe when I hear people go one further and say "they're all as bad as each other" because they aren't. He is much worse than Blair, Cameron or May, all of whom will have been guilty of polishing the truth for their own ends on an almost daily basis, but it really feels like Johnson just does whatever the fuck he wants, sometimes with no better reason than just to see if he can get away with it.

I don't want to be accused of re-hashing the argument of EU membership and it has become an almost lazy cliche to say you can trace the start of this back to Brexit... but you can trace the start of this back to Brexit. That was where the national debate really lost all of its good faith where one side was having a somewhat evidence-based conversation about the EU and the other side basically kept saying shit that had a sliver of truth to it and pushing the boundary to see what they could get away with pretty-much-but-not-technically-lying about. Johnson's heavy involvement in the Leave campaign is obviously linked to the way his time as PM is going. The kicking and screaming from the Remain side from 2016-2019 and trying to invalidate the referendum result was never really about the EU at all, it was about trying to subvert an electoral result which was not really fought on the terms that had previously been permitted as the minimum standard of good faith debate. And since then, well it worked for them so why change?

Anyway, there are genuinely hundreds of MPs and those who want to be MPs out there from all of the parties who are driven by a genuine sense of public service. These are the ones who rarely make it to cabinet level though, which isn't a coincidence, and in that sense I very much agree the way politics is done has to change.

Can the Queen sack him?

[The Artful Dodger]

1 hour ago, RondónEFC said:

Alright, fine. So how does "we need to tear the whole system down" help anyone? Because it isn't going to happen.

We might have to agree to disagree but Johnson is a compulsive liar who lives hand to mouth in terms of surviving in his position, it's burned into his psyche and he's driven primarily by two things - dodging accountability and staying in power, not because it actually gets him anything, he does it just to see if he can.

I'll hold my hands up and admit I was a teenager who didn't pay much attention when Blair was in power and while the Iraq fiasco played out. But with all of the Prime Ministers I've seen before Boris Johnson, they at least played by the rules in terms of understanding that different people and institutions, from the courts to the average voter, would hold them to account if they did or didn't do certain things. Johnson simply doesn't play by those rules and his government are actively trying to destroy them by justifying any law-breaking or broken manifesto promises by shrugging and saying "we'll be accountable to the electorate" which basically gives them licence to do whatever the fuck they feel like for four years, breaking the contract with the electorate which all previous PMs have at least somewhat tried to uphold.

I don't disagree with any of your criticism of New Labour and I have no great love at all for Blair, May, Cameron, etc. Hopefully I've highlighted why I think Johnson is worse but if you look at him and think that seeing him kicked out and even a different Conservative take power, or even see Starmer or a similar Labour politician win the next election, and not think that that's at least a small step in the right direction (which is all you're going to get realistically in a short timespan) then I'm afraid I have to firmly disagree.

It's patently obvious that Johnson is a venal, criminal scumbag and has been for decades. We voted him in anyway. How did we get here? This is not some aberration like the centre left would have you think. We've got here because we accepted that 'spin' is just part of the game. We accepted that style mattered over substance. We absolutely deserve all of this.

I really don't think Blair is some higher category from Johnson though. The man is the definition of conceit and arrogance. They sit nicely in a pod.

Edited January 12, 2022 by The Artful Dodger

[Waylander]

The Queen does not get involved in politics just gives consent for a new government.

Johnson's threat comes from his own side, a lot think he has gone OTT with the virus and now seen he has been judged to be duplicitous with work parties as the self employed were losing their jobs due to lockdowns the political classes were seen to be ignoring,

Party also annoyed by N.I increases with inflation higher.

Andrew Neill said a couple of years ago that Bojo was a weather vane takes the opinion of whoever  has his ear. 

Now is he forced out or does he twist?

 

 

[RandoEFC+]

15 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

It's patently obvious that Johnson is a venal, criminal scumbag and has been for decades. We voted him in anyway. How did we get here? This is not some aberration like the centre left would have you think. We've got here because we accepted that 'spin' is just part of the game. We accepted that style mattered over substance. We absolutely deserve all of this.

I really don't think Blair is some higher category from Johnson though. The man is the definition of conceit and arrogance. They sit nicely in a pod.

I'll let you have Blair then, fair enough, I'm too young to have seen him be Prime Minister and address the public in that role for many years. I still think Johnson is a different animal to at least Cameron and May though, and the majority of other senior politicians, Corbyn, Sturgeon, Starmer, Milliband, etc. The threshold of just how much he has to insult and mock the public for anything to stick to him is on another planet to the rest, and he knows it and exploits it, which is why I object to the "they're all the same" thing. I don't think we'll see another leader in our lifetime who gets away with some of the things Johnson has got away with. The reason he'll end up going down anyway is that he can't help himself from pushing and pushing until it finally gets too much.

I will also agree that it's totally sickening that if and when he does go, it won't be for any of the hundreds of valid reasons that there are, such as his incompetent handling of the pandemic, his pursuit of Brexit when he knew it would be no good for the nation, etc. etc. If this party stuff does finish him off, the reason for it won't be that he went too far down the path of moral repugnance, it'll be because the threshold of how many Tory MPs scared of losing their seat and the power, influence and money that comes with it will be high enough for them to oust him.

No matter how depressing it is though, and regardless of whether it's some awful Truss or Sunak who replaces him or a Labour government that don't really offer many truly progressive policies, my opinion of Johnson is so low that anything else for me is a step in the right direction.

[RandoEFC+]

Starmer has infuriated the Left by not calling for Johnson's resignation on a number of occasions. I think he's been right to err on the side of caution as calling for resignations only for them not to materialise just makes you look weak and reminds everyone you have no power and all you can actually do is say things.

Here it is though. He must be pretty confident that this is the moment. Or he's just seen the polling from Monday that 66% of the public and almost half of Tory voters with an opinion believe that the PM should resign.

[Stan]

 

 

[RandoEFC+]

Douglas "Dross" Ross, leader of Scottish Tories, calls for PM to resign.

But some still on his side...

 

[Guest]

I dont think there is anyway johnson survives this. I'm glad it has ended disgracefully for him as he is a disgraceful human being. I think the only people defending him now are so stubborn they arent worth paying attention to. Most of the defence seems to be now that they are all cunts so it's ok or starmer didnt prosecute Jimmy savile.

Even my dad who has supported him has probably turned against him. Apparently sunac is the favourite. He is probably the best out of a bad bunch. I think he voted to let children starve though so hes still a cunt 

[Stan]

Priti Patel and Nadine Dorries can fuck right off. Stain on politics they are for what they say and who they choose to back. 

[Smiley Culture]

Said it countless times, how is he still in a job? I’m just surprised there isn’t massive protests about this. If we were French, London would be burnt to the ground. 

I couldn’t imagine how angry I’d feel had we not continued visiting my Mrs’ Dad in his final months. As a caveat to that, we weren’t even going outside for months on end so we felt safe to see him.