UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Devil-Dick Willie]

11 hours ago, 6666 said:

While the Tories do suck, Labour doesn't really have much momentum and seem to be just relying on "at least we're not Tories" as their message.

Similar to the Democrats in the US, being the "we're not as bad as the other lot" party isn't a message that motivates people. You might win by default if the other guy is extremely, extremely disliked but Rishi just seems like a guy people don't take seriously rather than someone people hate.

In america it's more important to motivate, because you don't have to vote. Sure, there will be some voters who donkey vote, or leave the page blank, but not enough to shift an election.

[Honey Honey]

On 23/11/2023 at 12:32, Gunnersaurus said:

Can someone explain to me why the conservatives would call an earlier election when they will almost certainly loose? @Honey Honey you are normally good at this stuff 

 

There is a 100 year old fear in politics that winter elections are bad for turnout. That too close to call constituencies can go either way just because it is cold or raining. Consensus has thus been that elections need to be in warmer months.

Conservatives need to move the don't knows back into their camp and may fear that such indifferent voters might not bother voting if the month is wrong. Similarly, their core is often older voters, pensioners, for whom the cold might be off putting if their support isn't mobilised on the issues strongly enough.

It is unlikely the conservatives will be able to narrow the polls outside of an election campaign. Something outside of their control would have to happen. The campaign period is their only hope, including for damage limitation, whatever time the election is called.

[Dr. Gonzo]

David Cameron's back in government and now the UK's detected its first human case of H1N2 flu strain circulating around in pigs.

Coincidence? Nah, the pig fucker's done this.

[OrangeKhrush]

i wouldn't think that alienating the people from the government is a good political strategy, from the Scottish PM declaring that the problem with Scotland is that it's full of Scots in the best Longshanks throwback, to Varadkar calling the Irish the problem with Ireland is not going to see you stay in power long.    

I haven't seen Sunak reach that level of depravity yet.

[Honey Honey]

There are many upsides to sharing a language with other countries and the Americans in particular. However one of the downsides is the American led online far right digging up a clip of Humza Yousaf from 3 years ago and spinning it for their own agenda. I suppose it means they take a break from discussing local council town planning policies in Oxford and Liverpool. Odd balls the lot of them. 

[OrangeKhrush]

On 28/11/2023 at 17:25, Honey Honey said:

There are many upsides to sharing a language with other countries and the Americans in particular. However one of the downsides is the American led online far right digging up a clip of Humza Yousaf from 3 years ago and spinning it for their own agenda. I suppose it means they take a break from discussing local council town planning policies in Oxford and Liverpool. Odd balls the lot of them. 

meanwhile in Ireland the greens say Ireland is to white, Leo Varadkar was also shown saying the same.   Anyone who is opposed to cultural invasion is branded far right by the increasingly ever moving left to neo racist far left.

immigration is not the problem, it is the process on who you let in.  A state is not the government, it is the people and people are not happy with unrestricted immigration and the implications on western society.  Ireland doesn't need to assimilate to foreign cultures, much like the UK, Netherlands, Spain, Italy, Denmark, Sweden that are finally seeing the implications of letting anyone in. 

have you ever wondered why Arabs don't let anyone in, or the Japs and Chinese are reluctant to take in non Asians?  Every country has developed over time a unique culture and identity, where a country values it's customs, they are stronger.  Cultural dilution will be the end of western civilization and from it will rise the worst kinds.

keep branding your own people alt right because they disagree with you and you will see more Nationalists come to power which isn't bad because preserving values and customs is good.

As Murray and a few others are brave enough to say, if you don't believe in England, and England is not your priority, get the fuck out.

my father has been in the UK for 12 years, he keeps asking me to move there and my issue is I don't want to live in a country where being English is seen as a issue, I don't want to live with people who can't even agree on the fundamental aspect of what it is to be Brit.  The country is infected with wokism, people that will woke wash to fuel their narcissism under the pretence that they are good people, holier than thou, read ordinary men, a book about ordinary Germans becoming Nazi and how easy it was to fall.

Things will get even worse with new serveilance and censorship laws being fast track, the sad thing is it is supported by all political factions, greens to Tories they all want to coerce your thought and control you good luck with that.

[Stan]

2 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

my father has been in the UK for 12 years, he keeps asking me to move there and my issue is I don't want to live in a country where being English is seen as a issue, I don't want to live with people who can't even agree on the fundamental aspect of what it is to be Brit.  The country is infected with wokism, people that will woke wash to fuel their narcissism under the pretence that they are good people, holier than thou, read ordinary men, a book about ordinary Germans becoming Nazi and how easy it was to fall.

 

[RandoEFC+]

Wouldn't it be novel if the people who have a problem with mass immigration actually paused and realised that 7 years after voting for Brexit and after over a decade of voting for the Tories because they'll be tough on immigration, that net migration has actually increased and that maybe the people who they ignored and wrote off as leftie Nazis or whatever I just read, who told everyone that Brexit wasn't the solution and that however much "Boris" seems like a good lad to go for a pint with (never really got it personally), making him prime minister would only make everyone's lives worse, might actually have had a point? Just a thought.

[RandoEFC+]

3 hours ago, Stan said:

 

What are you laughing at Stan? If there's one thing that everyone can agree on about the Nazis, is that the real problem was how woke they were. 

[OrangeKhrush]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

Wouldn't it be novel if the people who have a problem with mass immigration actually paused and realised that 7 years after voting for Brexit and after over a decade of voting for the Tories because they'll be tough on immigration, that net migration has actually increased and that maybe the people who they ignored and wrote off as leftie Nazis or whatever I just read, who told everyone that Brexit wasn't the solution and that however much "Boris" seems like a good lad to go for a pint with (never really got it personally), making him prime minister would only make everyone's lives worse, might actually have had a point? Just a thought.

That is the question that nobody seems to be able to answer other than getting told to shut up and accept it.  

[Stan]

58 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

That is the question that nobody seems to be able to answer other than getting told to shut up and accept it.  

Did you miss the question?

'Maybe the people who they ignored and wrote off a leftie Nazis...might actually have had a point'?

Basically the biggest yet valid 'I told you so' by anyone who voted Remain or who was anti-Brexit. Nothing has improved in the last 7 years. Under the Tory government it's become even more of a shitshow than the first 6 years of their 'leadership'. 

[OrangeKhrush]

39 minutes ago, Stan said:

Did you miss the question?

'Maybe the people who they ignored and wrote off a leftie Nazis...might actually have had a point'?

Basically the biggest yet valid 'I told you so' by anyone who voted Remain or who was anti-Brexit. Nothing has improved in the last 7 years. Under the Tory government it's become even more of a shitshow than the first 6 years of their 'leadership'. 

Nothing will change under any government,  what will happen is censorship and arrest of anyone that questions it.   If you had to ask that question on any government official's twitter,  the cops will probably arrive at your home and arrest you for inciting violence. 

I get the impression that the Tories don't really know what they are supposed to be and are just making it up as they go along.   If the Tories are supposed to be conservative,  I would hate to see what the very left wing is like. 

I think you guys have touched on it above,  the options aren't much better,  it is now "anyone but ....." which is never a good situation to be in. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Lol did someone forget to take their meds today?

[RandoEFC+]

2 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

That is the question that nobody seems to be able to answer other than getting told to shut up and accept it.  

The one thing Brexit achieved in terms of immigration is that France are now making even less effort to stop people jumping in the small boats to the shores of the UK than they were making when we were still in the EU with them because back then, there was a minimum amount of effort they had to be seen to make.

I personally don't think immigration is a problem but those of us that are "left-leaning" and generally feel this way also have to admit that there is such a thing as "too much" immigration. I don't really think we've reached that point but I also won't pretend to know how much is too much. We obviously couldn't cope if a million people were arriving each month, for a silly example.

The problem for me is that this debate is never had in good faith. Most of the people who shout the loudest about immigration and how it puts too much of a strain on the NHS or schools have another agenda. Usually they want low taxes either for selfish or ideological reasons. If we can blame immigration rather than a lack of government spending for long waiting lists and overflowing classrooms, then there's less pressure on the government to increase funding in these areas (which is what is actually needed) and therefore less need to raise taxes on the upper-middle class to super rich people. A lot of anti-immigration types like to use "look after our own" as some sort of attack line without acknowledging that if we reduced net migration to the UK to zero overnight, our public services would still be in dire straits and require a lot of investment. You don't really hear much from well-qualified academic types on the drawbacks of immigration or "too much" immigration and if you do, a bit of digging usually reveals that they're on the pay roll of some oddball think tank on Tufton Street who also contributed to Liz Truss' leadership campaign or something.

Onto the Tories. They've spent the last few years since Covid on some real hair-brained schemes to be seen to deal with immigration without thinking about the political consequences when they don't actually follow through with some success. That barge thing and the Rwanda scheme have been a total waste of time and were at least partially designed to look cruel or "ruthless" because they think that appeals to their target voters but nobody seems to be buying it anymore. If they had spent that time working towards realistic and viable solutions to decrease net migration even by a little bit, then perhaps the people who, unlike me, think that's important, might have a bit more patience for the Tories now.

One last thing and I know you haven't said it but I've always found the British dependence on the made up rule about "refugees are supposed to stay in the first safe country they reach" to be quite hysterical. If this was actually enforced then you'd just see Greece and Turkey being forced to harbour millions of refugees while France, Germany, the UK and the rest of Europe didn't lift a finger. Again, it's really hard to put any intellectual value in the anti-immigration argument when some of its acolytes rely on this as some sort of leg to stand on when it falls apart the second you point out that there is no such rule, and even if there was that would mean that the UK would never have to take any refugees ever unless they were coming from the Republic of Ireland or perhaps Iceland.

[OrangeKhrush]

40 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

The one thing Brexit achieved in terms of immigration is that France are now making even less effort to stop people jumping in the small boats to the shores of the UK than they were making when we were still in the EU with them because back then, there was a minimum amount of effort they had to be seen to make.

I personally don't think immigration is a problem but those of us that are "left-leaning" and generally feel this way also have to admit that there is such a thing as "too much" immigration. I don't really think we've reached that point but I also won't pretend to know how much is too much. We obviously couldn't cope if a million people were arriving each month, for a silly example.

The problem for me is that this debate is never had in good faith. Most of the people who shout the loudest about immigration and how it puts too much of a strain on the NHS or schools have another agenda. Usually they want low taxes either for selfish or ideological reasons. If we can blame immigration rather than a lack of government spending for long waiting lists and overflowing classrooms, then there's less pressure on the government to increase funding in these areas (which is what is actually needed) and therefore less need to raise taxes on the upper-middle class to super rich people. A lot of anti-immigration types like to use "look after our own" as some sort of attack line without acknowledging that if we reduced net migration to the UK to zero overnight, our public services would still be in dire straits and require a lot of investment. You don't really hear much from well-qualified academic types on the drawbacks of immigration or "too much" immigration and if you do, a bit of digging usually reveals that they're on the pay roll of some oddball think tank on Tufton Street who also contributed to Liz Truss' leadership campaign or something.

Onto the Tories. They've spent the last few years since Covid on some real hair-brained schemes to be seen to deal with immigration without thinking about the political consequences when they don't actually follow through with some success. That barge thing and the Rwanda scheme have been a total waste of time and were at least partially designed to look cruel or "ruthless" because they think that appeals to their target voters but nobody seems to be buying it anymore. If they had spent that time working towards realistic and viable solutions to decrease net migration even by a little bit, then perhaps the people who, unlike me, think that's important, might have a bit more patience for the Tories now.

One last thing and I know you haven't said it but I've always found the British dependence on the made up rule about "refugees are supposed to stay in the first safe country they reach" to be quite hysterical. If this was actually enforced then you'd just see Greece and Turkey being forced to harbour millions of refugees while France, Germany, the UK and the rest of Europe didn't lift a finger. Again, it's really hard to put any intellectual value in the anti-immigration argument when some of its acolytes rely on this as some sort of leg to stand on when it falls apart the second you point out that there is no such rule, and even if there was that would mean that the UK would never have to take any refugees ever unless they were coming from the Republic of Ireland or perhaps Iceland.

I agree that the issue on immigration requires a talk,  it needs regulations and policies that allow adopting countries to choose who they want to enter,  if these people don't meet the requirement they should be denied.   How this is achieved is for the experts to decide but it won't when immigration seems to be a political totem to see which side bites more,  I don't think not wanting undesirables would be something a liberal or conservative wouldn't want,  but when its weaponised whereby anti immigration (also very disingenuous) is branded as racism and if you don't agree you get branded alt right,  even though there are millions of liberals that don't want unregulated immigration.  

To much is when you reach the point where crimes increase and people have to damage control it or seek to impose censorship and authoritarian means to stop people talking about what is objectively true,  if there can be no dialogue on truth its gone to far. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

9 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

my father has been in the UK for 12 years, he keeps asking me to move there and my issue is I don't want to live in a country where being English is seen as a issue, I don't want to live with people who can't even agree on the fundamental aspect of what it is to be Brit.  The country is infected with wokism, people that will woke wash to fuel their narcissism under the pretence that they are good people, holier than thou, read ordinary men, a book about ordinary Germans becoming Nazi and how easy it was to fall.

This is one the funniest things I think I've read on this forum.

Also why the fuck would you care about "not wanting to live in a country where being English is seen as an issue?" Aren't you South African? Even if that were the case (spoiler alert - it isn't, hilarious claim though)... wouldn't you be fine in that situation? Seeing as you're not English?

Also there's absolutely no debate on what it is fundamentally to be British  - born in Britain or a British overseas territory or a citizen of a British country or British overseas territory? Ok then we all agree that you've got the fundamental aspects of being British. Not born in Britain or a British overseas territory or a citizen of these countries/territories? Ok, we all agree you've not got the fundamental aspects of being British. It's not some mysterious concept of Britishness - it's citizens of the UK, British Overseas Territories, and Crown dependencies.

[Stan]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

This is one the funniest things I think I've read on this forum.

Also why the fuck would you care about "not wanting to live in a country where being English is seen as an issue?" Aren't you South African? Even if that were the case (spoiler alert - it isn't, hilarious claim though)... wouldn't you be fine in that situation? Seeing as you're not English?

Also there's absolutely no debate on what it is fundamentally to be British  - born in Britain or a British overseas territory or a citizen of a British country or British overseas territory? Ok then we all agree that you've got the fundamental aspects of being British. Not born in Britain or a British overseas territory or a citizen of these countries/territories? Ok, we all agree you've not got the fundamental aspects of being British. It's not some mysterious concept of Britishness - it's citizens of the UK, British Overseas Territories, and Crown dependencies.

It's not even that.

It's typical right/far-right trope that bang on about 'wokeness' without actually understanding what it means. And I bet this guy even thinks there are 'no-go zones' because Katie Hopkins and Tommy Robinson said so once upon a time.

It's that kind of brainwashing that give UK/Britain a bad name. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 minutes ago, Stan said:

It's not even that.

It's typical right/far-right trope that bang on about 'wokeness' without actually understanding what it means. And I bet this guy even thinks there are 'no-go zones' because Katie Hopkins and Tommy Robinson said so once upon a time.

It's that kind of brainwashing that give UK/Britain a bad name. 

THOSE BLOODY WOKE NAZIS. WITH THEIR IDEAS OF TOLERANCE TOWARDS PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT ETHNICITIES AND SEXUAL PREFERENCES. BLOODY FASCISTS.

While ignoring the Nazis weren't tolerant of different ethnicities or gays/lgbt+

[Stan]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

THOSE BLOODY WOKE NAZIS. WITH THEIR IDEAS OF TOLERANCE TOWARDS PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT ETHNICITIES AND SEXUAL PREFERENCES. BLOODY FASCISTS.

While ignoring the Nazis weren't tolerant of different ethnicities or gays/lgbt+

It makes me laugh that around remembrance day you get pictures of absolute neanderthals wearing poppies but are emblazoned with swastika tattoos  

[Michael]

Former Chancellor Alistair Darling dies aged 70 - BBC News

Alistair Darling has passed away aged 70, after undergoing treatment for cancer. 

R.I.P. Alistair Darling

[OrangeKhrush]

12 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

This is one the funniest things I think I've read on this forum.

Also why the fuck would you care about "not wanting to live in a country where being English is seen as an issue?" Aren't you South African? Even if that were the case (spoiler alert - it isn't, hilarious claim though)... wouldn't you be fine in that situation? Seeing as you're not English?

Also there's absolutely no debate on what it is fundamentally to be British  - born in Britain or a British overseas territory or a citizen of a British country or British overseas territory? Ok then we all agree that you've got the fundamental aspects of being British. Not born in Britain or a British overseas territory or a citizen of these countries/territories? Ok, we all agree you've not got the fundamental aspects of being British. It's not some mysterious concept of Britishness - it's citizens of the UK, British Overseas Territories, and Crown dependencies.

traditions and customs are the same whether you are English, Japanese, Mongolian or Canadian, a nation develops those traditions over time and when people who done respect those customs come in and want to change them, it will likely cause social discord.

40% of Muslim immigrants to the UK stated they would prefer Sharia Law, right now they are a minority but if you keep letting them in they will garner a sufficient representation, when that happens which I hope never happens you get forced change.

 

[OrangeKhrush]

12 hours ago, Stan said:

It's not even that.

It's typical right/far-right trope that bang on about 'wokeness' without actually understanding what it means. And I bet this guy even thinks there are 'no-go zones' because Katie Hopkins and Tommy Robinson said so once upon a time.

It's that kind of brainwashing that give UK/Britain a bad name. 

Tommy Robinson was arrested having breakfast under a suspicion of inciting violence, and you brand left and right wing around like your government isn't trying to censor what they deem tolerable.   He was attending what the media in the UK from sky to far left BBC branded peaceful pro Israel rallies as opposed to the violent pro Hamas rallies, where people are arrested for denouncing the violence.

it is not right wing trope, it is visible fact what people see on news.   You have police arresting anyone that expresses views that unregulated immigration is bad and they are branded far right

in Germany to the contrary, left wing news brandished the police as a sign that Germany is still fascist because they were processing people at violent pro Hamas rallies.   Germany is so far left it is comical to see arresting violent agitators branded fascism.

wokeness dictates that you cannot say anything about immigration or you are fascist, yet international jurisprudence and laws of nations dictate that it is the sovereign right of a state to determine it's own immigration policies, and since the state is not the government but all the people, and the majority don't want the current status quo, these people are not far right because they don't want people who have a propensity for violence and civil disruption.

what I see from you like others is an absolute willingness to defend anyone the left wing media brand as victims and accuse anyone who disagrees as right wing.  A's for Gonzo conveniently throwing left wing LGBTQ tropes around, in the UK the LGBs want to completely disavow themselves from the Transexual left wing driven genders as it is harmful to the good faith the homosexual community have built since the world started tolerating homosexuality since around 1965ish.  if we are going to talk about left wing driven narratives that misgendering objectively male or female persons as hate speech and worthy of imprisonment then I think the right wing are right on this one, forcing people to accept something that is not objectively true and threatening them if they don't is the basis for fascism.

[Stan]

You've gone off on a massive tangent there.

Tommy Robinson has a clear history of bigotry and racism and just being an absolute cunt. The latter is his right to do, but the former two have no place in society.

You do realise that there has been violence at pro-Israel rallies?

As for 'pro-Hamas' you are absolutely out of your head. And pretty much shown your true colours there to not even recognise it's pro-Palestine not pro-Hamas. Absolutely played yourself there. 

They're obviously arrested for more than just having a view on unregulated immigration. There's a way to go about disagreeing with an immigration policy and inciting violence or stoking hatred towards a community is not the one. You'd have thought that relatively young gammon might have realised that by now. But no, he keeps making the same mistakes and somehow still has a following of backward-thinking, regressive-minded arse-lickers. 

You can say 'wokeness' dictates whatever you want. But plain and simply, it's just wanting social equality. So I'll happily be as woke as possible if it means that people who are now branded 'anti-woke' show themselves up as not wanting that or being against wanting social equality and not wanting prejudices or discrimination to be a regular part of society. It's not the woke person's fault that anyone disagreeing with that has misunderstood what it means and therefore use the term wrongly.

What you see from me is not getting brainwashed or wound up in conspiracy theorists or ultra-right wing media who have you wrapped around their little finger. What you see from me is wanting people to not be bigots or racists. I'm fine if people want to limit immigration. But don't impose further limit to skin colour or religion or race. Something you quite clearly have a propensity to do considering your jibes at Islam and how you think they're all violent or cause disruption. 

[Rucksackfranzose]

1 hour ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Tommy Robinson was arrested having breakfast under a suspicion of inciting violence, and you brand left and right wing around like your government isn't trying to censor what they deem tolerable.   He was attending what the media in the UK from sky to far left BBC branded peaceful pro Israel rallies as opposed to the violent pro Hamas rallies, where people are arrested for denouncing the violence.

it is not right wing trope, it is visible fact what people see on news.   You have police arresting anyone that expresses views that unregulated immigration is bad and they are branded far right

in Germany to the contrary, left wing news brandished the police as a sign that Germany is still fascist because they were processing people at violent pro Hamas rallies.   Germany is so far left it is comical to see arresting violent agitators branded fascism.

wokeness dictates that you cannot say anything about immigration or you are fascist, yet international jurisprudence and laws of nations dictate that it is the sovereign right of a state to determine it's own immigration policies, and since the state is not the government but all the people, and the majority don't want the current status quo, these people are not far right because they don't want people who have a propensity for violence and civil disruption.

what I see from you like others is an absolute willingness to defend anyone the left wing media brand as victims and accuse anyone who disagrees as right wing.  A's for Gonzo conveniently throwing left wing LGBTQ tropes around, in the UK the LGBs want to completely disavow themselves from the Transexual left wing driven genders as it is harmful to the good faith the homosexual community have built since the world started tolerating homosexuality since around 1965ish.  if we are going to talk about left wing driven narratives that misgendering objectively male or female persons as hate speech and worthy of imprisonment then I think the right wing are right on this one, forcing people to accept something that is not objectively true and threatening them if they don't is the basis for fascism.

Aheem no! Don't know where that's from, still it's completely false. It's correct some police men/women  are  connected publicly to facism- this has nothing to do with their reaction to said rallies though, but with police intern what's app chat groups that hail 3: Reich and advocate violence against persons of non-European heritage. You should, at least, try to get your facts about Germany straight, when talking about it, since a few people on this forum are livin' in Germany and may refute you without any problems, otherwise.

Edt: Here are a few links to support, what I wrote- in German, dstill google translate might do its job.

http://www.hessenschau.de/politik/67-rechte-chatgruppen-bei-hessischer-polizei---zum-teil-mit-kinderpornografie,polizei-rechte-chatgruppen-kinderpornografie-innenausschuss-100.html

http://www.fr.de/politik/poliei-hessen-rechtextremer-chat-darmstadt-praesidium-news-91467623.html

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Rucksackfranzose

[OrangeKhrush]

3 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Aheem no! Don't know where that's from, still it's completely false. It's correct some police men/women  are  connected publicly to facism- this has nothing to do with their reaction to said rallies though, but with police intern what's app chat groups that hail 3: Reich and advocate violence against persons of non-European heritage. You should, at least, try to get your facts about Germany straight, when talking about it, since a few people on this forum are livin' in Germany and may refute you without any problems, otherwise.

this was nothing to do with anti immigration but police processing pro Hamas rioters.   it is funny to see people brandishing German police as fascist, Germany is an all you can eat buffet for "progressivsm" well until now at least, with support for a nationalist party growing, maybe Germany is wanting a solution.   

I do like how immigration reform is branded anti immigration.   people wanting reform to vetting processes to better determine if you are letting in the right people is not fascism, Stan will say, it's a left wing trope.