UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Bluewolf]

Many, many years ago I sat through a lengthy 2 hour video where all kinds of conspiracy's were covered and one of them was about how there was a plot where the powers that be sought to control the worlds populations and have been putting things in place bit by bit for a great many years by controlling certain aspects of the Media and Governments etc while also having a stake/interest in technology among a great many other things..

I just recently read that a company have put forward a suggestion that staff for company's above 200 employees could be interested in tagging their staff with a small pill sized tracking device which is implanted under the skin on the palm of their hand, they are selling it as a security measure and although this idea does have it's merits it might be interesting to note that this was also suggested in the video of some of those things that were going to be put into place all them years ago... 

But we will only get to know what they want us to know.... 

[Fairy In Boots]

Think she’s doing irreparable damage to the Tory party now, I predict they will split. 

The remain crowd are more Lib Dem than Tory anyway. 

 

[SirBalon]

8 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Think she’s doing irreparable damage to the Tory party now, I predict they will split. 

The remain crowd are more Lib Dem than Tory anyway. 

 

If the deal isn’t accepted by the commons, you’ll find many Labour voters (those that don’t treat politics like football support) will vote conservative. 

[Fairy In Boots]

4 hours ago, SirBalon said:

If the deal isn’t accepted by the commons, you’ll find many Labour voters (those that don’t treat politics like football support) will vote conservative. 

Nope she’s a dead duck for even trying to take this deal to the commons, the Tory’s have dropped massively in the polls because of her concessions. She was unelectable after losing her majority to a fucking Marxist, now she’s toxic.

On Brexit, even Diane fucking Abbott gets it, it’s much more about Sovereignty than remainers believe. It may come as a surprise to those who live in metropolitan London bubble, where they only converse with the echo chamber that is their circle of guardian / independent type reading friends. 

They only encounter leave voters when they’re virtue signaling on various media platforms about how “all the leavers have been dupped, they’re just Farage loving racist who dislike brown people”  and some rabid UKIP nut takes the bait. 

To the working class & blue collar Tory core of leavers this was very much about sovereignty. The people screaming No deal don’t give a fuck about immigration, they want to be outside of the EU, they anticipate some kind of initial pain but are optimistic that we can get past that and do well. 

Sadly the political establishment aren’t conviction politicians and are very much self serving pieces of shit, hence this utterly ludicrous deal she’s seaking. If Labour back her, they’ gone in their heartlands that voted Brexit 

 

[SirBalon]

36 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Nope she’s a dead duck for even trying to take this deal to the commons, the Tory’s have dropped massively in the polls because of her concessions. She was unelectable after losing her majority to a fucking Marxist, now she’s toxic.

On Brexit, even Diane fucking Abbott gets it, it’s much more about Sovereignty than remainers believe. It may come as a surprise to those who live in metropolitan London bubble, where they only converse with the echo chamber that is their circle of guardian / independent type reading friends. 

They only encounter leave voters when they’re virtue signaling on various media platforms about how “all the leavers have been dupped, they’re just Farage loving racist who dislike brown people”  and some rabid UKIP nut takes the bait. 

To the working class & blue collar Tory core of leavers this was very much about sovereignty. The people screaming No deal don’t give a fuck about immigration, they want to be outside of the EU, they anticipate some kind of initial pain but are optimistic that we can get past that and do well. 

Sadly the political establishment aren’t conviction politicians and are very much self serving pieces of shit, hence this utterly ludicrous deal she’s seaking. If Labour back her, they’ gone in their heartlands that voted Brexit 

 

It's nothing to do about sovereignty mate because we always had sovereignty.  But I get it due to the fact there's still a load of gammons believing in unicorns.

Trust me, Corbyn isn't getting in unless this deal is voted through.  If it isn't voted through then there are two options... One option is for a no deal Brexit and destroy the country and the second one is a substantial movement to get another referendum which would be more likely than ever even thought still iffy... But all the same with much better odds than beforehand.

[Danny]

It has nothing to do with immigration, yet that was the biggest point in arguing Brexit....the lie that was we have no control over our borders, the influx of Muslims coming in etc etc.

Ironic that Fairy hates the "London Guardian reading Remainers" for all their stereotyping yet generalises them as people who couldn't possibly have met or understood anyone from the Mean Brexit Streets of Birmingham or Basildon.

[SirBalon]

3 minutes ago, Danny said:

It has nothing to do with immigration, yet that was the biggest point in arguing Brexit....the lie that was we have no control over our borders, the influx of Muslims coming in etc etc.

Ironic that Fairy hates the "London Guardian reading Remainers" for all their stereotyping yet generalises them as people who couldn't possibly have met or understood anyone from the Mean Brexit Streets of Birmingham or Basildon.

Mate... You're never going to win!  People still think you can drive a car into the fire while being doused in petrol.  You can tell them all you like that they should stop believing he who is telling them you can and that you came to your senses in the end, but they will still believe that Fairyland lies in and beyond that viscous fire you're driving straight for.

[The Artful Dodger]

Still can't bring myself to back a second referendum, it's abdication of responsibility of our elected MPs and will only lead to more chaos. I think Corbyn is handling this more shrewdly than people think.

[SirBalon]

People have to appreciate that nobody knew what they were voting for in the referendum and that is the basis for a call for a second referendum.  It can have various options like whether or not they accept Mrs May's agreement with the EU,, whether or not to go for total and utter death in the shape of leaving with no deal or whether or not we should scrap everything now that we are all more aware of what this was all about and that NOTHING absolutely NOTHING is going to be better than being in the EU.

How can a vote (the referendum) be valid on the basis of a lack of knowledge of what people were voting for?

The politicians themselves didn't know as has been seen.

[The Artful Dodger]

A second referendum only extends the mess, why should that one be definitive? There would have to be a tie breaker, unless it was an absolute landslide and I don't see that. The Leave campaign was infiltrated by all sorts of horrendous people but this was obvious to anyone who cared to check things out. There should never, ever have been a bloody referendum and it was one of the grossest acts of political selfishness and cowardice this country has ever seen but we can't go back.

Don't forget the narrative has largely been about how awful this all is, if we were to have a second vote the Leave vote would ramp back up again and spout the same populist, with an added line about the overthrow of democracy, I think they'd do just fine once again. If they were to lose it'd would be a small margin and what then? 1-1?

Also, if Leave were to win once again we would be even more beholden to the right-wing that we are now, they'd have the cocksure swagger of two victories and the more moderate voices would be swept to the side. 

Edited November 25, 2018 by The Artful Dodger

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

A second referendum only extends the mess, why should that one be definitive? There would have to be a tie breaker, unless it was an absolute landslide and I don't see that. The Leave campaign was infiltrated by all sorts of horrendous people but this was obvious to anyone who cared to check things out. There should never, ever have been a bloody referendum and it was one of the grossest acts of political selfishness and cowardice this country has ever seen but we can't go back.

Don't forget the narrative has largely been about how awful this all is, if we were to have a second vote the Leave vote would ramp back up again and spout the same populist, with an added line about the overthrow of democracy, I think they'd do just fine once again. If they were to lose it'd would be a small margin and what then? 1-1?

Also, if Leave were to win once again we would be even more beholden to the right-wing that we are now, they'd have the cocksure swagger of two victories and the more moderate voices would be swept to the side. 

I agree, sadly. I think it’s better to let Brexit happen, hope for the best even though it’s almost certainly going to be unappealing to both sides. Investigate Aaron Banks & co. in the meantime and hold them accountable - and if (when) disaster strikes those on the leave side of politics should face full political accountability for what they pushed for. Dishonest populist rhetoric flies well & you’re right now they’ll say shite like “tHeY’rE tRyInG tO sUbVeRt DeMoCrACy” - I don’t have enough faith in voters to not fall for the same dishonest shite a second time with some new sugar sprinkled on top.

As long as Brexit is the big political issue in the UK, people are just going to be pushed further away from the middle ground. And I don’t think Brexit will go well for anyone, it’s certainly not in the national interest, and once this is over we can deal with the aftermath and rebuild. I just hope it’s not rebuilding from total chaos of not making a deal.

[RandoEFC+]

I don't think a second referendum is the answer but it's not as outrageous as some people have made out (Not necessarily here). It doesn't subvert democracy to allow people to have their say on something a second time having been presented with new information. People can change their mind, it's not that different than the fact we have another general election every 3 to 4 years to see whether the public has changed its mind about who should run the country.

Speaking of which, the politicians already abdicated responsibility by putting it to a public vote the first time. The government never holds a referendum to decide whether income tax should be restructured or whether they should make more cuts to police funding, or other things where the public actually has an idea what they're voting for or against, so I still don't see why the biggest economic decision in my lifetime was put to a public vote where the electorate weren't remotely educated about the process that would take place or the benefits and costs of what they were voting for.

[Honey Honey]

On 25/11/2018 at 00:20, Danny said:

It has nothing to do with immigration, yet that was the biggest point in arguing Brexit....the lie that was we have no control over our borders, the influx of Muslims coming in etc etc.

On that I think Fairy's point is broadly in the right ball park.

A reasonably strong argument can now be made that May and Robbins deal has landed poorly because they like you mistakenly exaggerate, misconstrue and misunderstand the role of immigration. 

As of last week the deal was polling at just 17% approval among leave voters even though it will bring about the end of open borders. It has a higher approval rating among those who voted remain. Its loudest opposition are the political groups you would consider the most irked by immigration. 

Immigration was part of a wider package which included the courts and trade in the lingo and probably has other intangible elements surrounding national narrative attached too. 

 

44 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I agree, sadly. I think it’s better to let Brexit happen, hope for the best even though it’s almost certainly going to be unappealing to both sides. Investigate Aaron Banks & co. in the meantime and hold them accountable - and if (when) disaster strikes those on the leave side of politics should face full political accountability for what they pushed for. Dishonest populist rhetoric flies well & you’re right now they’ll say shite like “tHeY’rE tRyInG tO sUbVeRt DeMoCrACy” - I don’t have enough faith in voters to not fall for the same dishonest shite a second time with some new sugar sprinkled on top.

As long as Brexit is the big political issue in the UK, people are just going to be pushed further away from the middle ground. And I don’t think Brexit will go well for anyone, it’s certainly not in the national interest, and once this is over we can deal with the aftermath and rebuild. I just hope it’s not rebuilding from total chaos of not making a deal.

Who from the original leave side is it that is in power that you're going to hold politically accountable and who is it from the leave side who supports this Brexit? Michael Gove?

We've had over 2 years of all of the main leave factions and leaders repeatedly complaining, whining and making unmet demands. 

Theresa May might not get the WA through because of Brexiteer backbenchers meaning it will only go through if original remain voters put it through. 

This sums up what has always been wrong with the situation. Brexit by referendum and not by political party. Swathes of establishment implementing what they don't like or understand out of principle toward a narrative concept of democracy. But we are going to let them off and solely blame anyone who campaigned to leave in the first place?

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Harvsky said:

On that I think Fairy's point is broadly in the right ball park.

A reasonably strong argument can now be made that May and Robbins deal has landed poorly because they like you mistakenly exaggerate, misconstrue and misunderstand the role of immigration. 

As of last week the deal was polling at just 17% approval among leave voters even though it will bring about the end of open borders. It has a higher approval rating among those who voted remain. Its loudest opposition are the political groups you would consider the most irked by immigration. 

Immigration was part of a wider package which included the courts and trade in the lingo and probably has other intangible elements surrounding national narrative attached too. 

 

Who from the original leave side is it that is in power that you're going to hold politically accountable and who is it from the leave side who supports this Brexit? Michael Gove?

We've had over 2 years of all of the main leave factions and leaders repeatedly complaining, whining and making unmet demands. 

Theresa May might not get the WA through because of Brexiteer backbenchers meaning it will only go through if original remain voters put it through. 

This sums up what has always been wrong with the situation. Brexit by referendum and not by political party. Swathes of establishment implementing what they don't like or understand out of principle toward a narrative concept of democracy. 

Idk anyone who supported Brexit is imo culpable for whatever happens after Brexit. It was always going to be a bad deal or no deal, anything else was living in dreamworld. For those no longer in power, accountability would be making them dead and buried politically. 

[Honey Honey]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Idk anyone who supported Brexit is imo culpable for whatever happens after Brexit. It was always going to be a bad deal or no deal, anything else was living in dreamworld. For those no longer in power, accountability would be making them dead and buried politically. 

So it's not based on any objective accountability it's just your own subjective outset. Sounds like an unhealthy way to run democratic accountability.

[SirBalon]

18 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Idk anyone who supported Brexit is imo culpable for whatever happens after Brexit. It was always going to be a bad deal or no deal, anything else was living in dreamworld. For those no longer in power, accountability would be making them dead and buried politically. 

The politicians are to blame because they didn't have a clue on what Brexit meant.  That much is clear and we've even had shocking comments coming from MPs and Cabinet Ministers stating this exact thing in the past months.

Wasn't it bumbling Boris Johnson who said "we can have our cake and eat it" with that excruciatingly annoying voice he has?

Really?  FOOL!

As for the public having to make themselves aware of what they were voting for... Bloody hell! 

Think about it...  There are just over 66 million people in the UK (I hope I've got that right) and the GOVERNMENT gave the vote to all of them (of course they did, there was no other way, it's a democracy and EVERYONE is entitled to vote "except for those in prison")... Shall I or shan't I go into the probable validation of the capabilities for the whole of the U.K. to vote on something as detrimental as this? I won't because all sorts of connotations could be construed and drawn up on my ramblings.

This isn't even all of it, but a fair bit and possibly the most important parts regarding divorcing the EU, but the FT (Financial Times) printed a lot of it not too long ago and if anyone says that they expected every UK citizen to read through it, understand it, associate a separation and its consequences to it before making a valid decision on where to scribble an 'X' on poling day... Hmmmm... 

https://ig.ft.com/brexit-treaty-database/

[SirBalon]

And for anyone that has finally understood the mess we will be putting our country in with Brexit, then of course another referendum is required and of course you won't need a deciding one because the facts are now clearer (except for those that still believe in unicorns and continue to prefer to drive their car into the fire) and a more valid decision can be respected now.

Plus, if remaining wins, then we all (all as in normal people) know the right decision has won and we can carry on living in our imperfect world.

[Danny]

2 hours ago, Harvsky said:

On that I think Fairy's point is broadly in the right ball park.

A reasonably strong argument can now be made that May and Robbins deal has landed poorly because they like you mistakenly exaggerate, misconstrue and misunderstand the role of immigration. 

As of last week the deal was polling at just 17% approval among leave voters even though it will bring about the end of open borders. It has a higher approval rating among those who voted remain. Its loudest opposition are the political groups you would consider the most irked by immigration. 

Immigration was part of a wider package which included the courts and trade in the lingo and probably has other intangible elements surrounding national narrative attached too. 

 

Who from the original leave side is it that is in power that you're going to hold politically accountable and who is it from the leave side who supports this Brexit? Michael Gove?

We've had over 2 years of all of the main leave factions and leaders repeatedly complaining, whining and making unmet demands. 

Theresa May might not get the WA through because of Brexiteer backbenchers meaning it will only go through if original remain voters put it through. 

This sums up what has always been wrong with the situation. Brexit by referendum and not by political party. Swathes of establishment implementing what they don't like or understand out of principle toward a narrative concept of democracy. But we are going to let them off and solely blame anyone who campaigned to leave in the first place?

Immigration was a massive component of Brexit, that isn't over exaggerating anything. From the poster boy of Brexit Farage to nearly every newspaper anti-immigration and xenophobic rhetoric was spouted on an almost daily basis.

[Machado]

Immigration apart, I think doing something sounded more appealing than doing nothing and the Brexit campaign had more vocal and probably charismatic people supporting that "something". Also, #Brexit is a catchier hastag than #Remain.

The remain campaign was poor. Failed to portrait any positive image of the EU and it was government led, an unpopular one, which didn't help. People looked at it as the establishment.

I think David Cameron will go down as the UK's worst ever Prime Minister, as in the long term he will have caused the most damage to the UK.

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 hours ago, Harvsky said:

So it's not based on any objective accountability it's just your own subjective outset. Sounds like an unhealthy way to run democratic accountability.

Better than how things are now tbh

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Machado said:

Immigration apart, I think doing something sounded more appealing than doing nothing and the Brexit campaign had more vocal and probably charismatic people supporting that "something". Also, #Brexit is a catchier hastag than #Remain.

The remain campaign was poor. Failed to portrait any positive image of the EU and it was government led, an unpopular one, which didn't help. People looked at it as the establishment.

I think David Cameron will go down as the UK's worst ever Prime Minister, as in the long term he will have caused the most damage to the UK.

David Cameron deserves a special place in hell. Fucking pig fucking twat

[Harry]

I don't follow this thread normally. The prospect of a second referendum is interesting though. Why would it go ahead? What has changed? Has public opinion clearly shifted? Has anyone here personally done a 180 on the issue? 

[Honey Honey]

7 hours ago, Danny said:

Immigration was a massive component of Brexit, that isn't over exaggerating anything. From the poster boy of Brexit Farage to nearly every newspaper anti-immigration and xenophobic rhetoric was spouted on an almost daily basis.

Read my post again.

It says "Immigration was part of a wider package" and why that appears the case.

I don't think you understood the post at all. You just doubled down instead of tackling the points raised in it. 

[SirBalon]

Immigration was one of the major weapons used by the leave campaign with sovereignty legitimising and surrounding like a comfort blanket the global picture for those that were pasting propaganda to divorce the EU.

Like with everything that's marketed in a consumerist world, the mechanics envolving the Brexit referendum was managed in the same manner.  Bulletpoint issues were served to an ignorant public (I repeat, the government and politicians ranging day and wide from all spectrums were in the same ignorant camp) to condition those that had already been conditioned for quite some time.  Add to the equation those that were extremely unsure (myself in that group) of what was going on and without the time or the tools to research something so detrimental, then we have a wide enough picture of what occurred.

The whole campaign was rotten from the start in both camps but we are now also seeing that the leave campaign was even illegally funded with dirty tricks being used as with the Aaron Banks funding of the leave campaign with £8m that is under investigation.  Infact it was brought to the attention of the government during the campaigning for Brexit pre-referendum day that there were dodgy shenanigans going on but the then Home Secretary Theresa May cancelled any investigation at the time.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/02/arron-banks-inquiry-why-is-8m-leaveeu-funding-under-review

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/01/arron-banks-referred-to-agency-over-suspected-offences-in-brexit-campaign

People can paint seemingly pretty patterns using complexed arguments that leave others dizzy with conjecture and confusion which in effect are like revolving doors with no info or argument at all and explain nothing just simply masking an underlying protection of an ideal they would rather unconformingly go to bed with rather than be part of a public outrage at years of total and utter corruption of people's thought process.

It's like when people say "I'm proud to be British" like that's something to take into account on any wider scope of rational argument.  What the hell does that mean? How is that a personal achievement and are you in some way saying that this statement is superior to (for example) someone saying "I'm proud to be French" across a patch of water called the English Channel.  What have you achieved and what is that based on to use that as a valid statement on a finalisation of an ignorant argument.

It's that type of populism, that type of sentiment, that type of nationalism that has been used by those in the media to condition the underdeveloped and uneducated minds of those that were already bred as bigots.. I want to add that they are all innocent!  All of those that think in that manner aren't to blame for everything that's occurred and has resulted in this utter stupidity.

[SirBalon]

6 hours ago, Harry said:

Has public opinion clearly shifted?

It has shifted, but not enough (if the prediction polls are to be believed, they've got it wrong so many times in recent future) to make it a resounding massive shift although there apparently is a shift into the remain camp, a decent one to win with a larger (not massive) difference to the original referendum.

But let me ask you something where shifting opinions are concerned...

Do Christians, Jews, Muslims etc... believe in a God?

How do you shift an opinion on THAT for the real believers?

Do you get where I've gone with that question?

This sort of opinion can only shift so much mate.