UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[RandoEFC+]

What we need to remember is that we aren't just dealing with Leave or Remain. Across the spectrum of Leave voters and MPs they are radically different views ranging from a very soft Brexit to a no deal Brexit. There are even Leave voters whose views are more aligned with Remainers than with the extreme hard Brexit Leave voters. We will end up with a reluctant compromise which doesn't please anyone.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

What we need to remember is that we aren't just dealing with Leave or Remain. Across the spectrum of Leave voters and MPs they are radically different views ranging from a very soft Brexit to a no deal Brexit. There are even Leave voters whose views are more aligned with Remainers than with the extreme hard Brexit Leave voters. We will end up with a reluctant compromise which doesn't please anyone.

I think that is kind of my point. What ever happens a lot of people are gonna be pissed of. Although the fact that they can't agree what they want kind of proves that there isn't an agreement on what brexit is. So how can we decide what kind of brexit to go for?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

That's been the thing to do since the referendum. I'd argue that the Brexiteers maybe should have had a more unified stance before the electorate voted on it, but that wasn't really physically possible with the mechanism put in place for a country to leave the EU. They'd be promising something they couldn't really guarantee... although, it's not like that stopped them in the reality we live in 

But yeah, the first obvious step to assessing how to go forward with Brexit is to have a concrete set plan on how we're leaving the EU, because then we'll be able to at least make a guess of what that actually means. So far, the only time an agreement was reached between the government and the EU, parliament rejected it pretty emphatically though - so we know there is one vision of Brexit that is pretty roundly rejected.

I think this is just far too divisive of an issue for there to be a truly satisfied majority.

The thing is though is the fact that it is so divisive is why is needs to be clarified what brexit is and if people really want it.

The funny thing is though is if you talk to brexeteers they still insist all  brexiteers agree on what it is 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Guest

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Gunnersauraus said:

The thing is though is the fact that it is so divisive is why is needs to be clarified what brexit is and if people really want it.

The funny thing is though is if you talk to brexeteers they still insist all  brexiteers agree on what it is 

The number of times I've heard my of uncle insisting that all Brexiteers agree on what Brexit is, while his position on what Brexit means to him has changed since the last time he's explained it absolutely just blows my fucking mind.

At this point though, I think it's too late to properly clarify it and leave Brexiteers satisfied. So many promises were made that are just inconsistent, it's really just impossible for Brexit to live up to all it was claimed to be. Meanwhile, the option of "No Brexit" is extremely unappealing to these people and they've had 2 years (and a much longer time before that of the EU being made a scapegoat for various failures of past British governments) of having the EU vilified and 2 years of these Brexit promises made - that I don't think they'd ever come to terms with the idea of Brexit not happening.

Ultimately, whatever happens, there's going to be a large group of the country that's unhappy with the end result. I don't think the UK's political culture is going to become any more stable, or at very least less polarised, any time soon. Only time will really heal the political divisions in the country, and that can only happen when the UK can move on from Brexit... which will only happen after Brexit has happened and the dust has settled.

[Inverted]

Farage has blacklisted Channel 4 from his events for its investigations into his finances. 

Wow I'm so happy Farage is here to fight our PC anti-free speech culture. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

11 hours ago, Inverted said:

Farage has blacklisted Channel 4 from his events for its investigations into his finances. 

Wow I'm so happy Farage is here to fight our PC anti-free speech culture. 

You mean to tell me Farage is a... snowflake?

[Harry]

On 21/05/2019 at 01:48, Gunnersauraus said:

@Dr. Gonzo @Stan @Harvsky

Interesting discussion I was having with  someone the other day. Won't happen but say we establish that 52% of people want to leave the EU but only 42% want a hard Brexit, the other 10% want a softer brexit and 48% want to remain. What is the right thing to do then? Some may argue that we have a hard brexit because more people voted to leave and that was the most popular vote out of that.  Others may argue we have a softer brexit because that is giving everybody a bit of what they want. Others may argue we stay because that is the most popular option out of the 3. 

This is a bit where I'm at. I voted to stay but I'm more neutral now. However I think brexeters aren't in agreement about what kind of brexit they want where as remainers are.

The most fairest way would be to establish whether the people who want a soft brexit would prefer to stay or have a hard brexit but that won't happen.

So I think the thing to do is establish what brexit will be and then vote on that.  

Do you guys have preference voting for MPs? I'd think that could work pretty well to find the option that pleases the majority.

Get the best set of deal terms for a soft brexit then take a preference vote of the options. Best Deal soft brexit, hard brexit or remain. The remain option would hopefully only be there to capture the grey... I.e the people who would vote for a soft brexit that would have second preference to remain rather than hard brexit, etc. If you can get a couple of different deals you could add another option, but either way you will get a better indicator of concensus than just picking a or b.

[Dr. Gonzo]

19 hours ago, Harry said:

Do you guys have preference voting for MPs? I'd think that could work pretty well to find the option that pleases the majority.

Get the best set of deal terms for a soft brexit then take a preference vote of the options. Best Deal soft brexit, hard brexit or remain. The remain option would hopefully only be there to capture the grey... I.e the people who would vote for a soft brexit that would have second preference to remain rather than hard brexit, etc. If you can get a couple of different deals you could add another option, but either way you will get a better indicator of concensus than just picking a or b.

Nah when we vote for MPs we use the first past the post totally dogshite way of voting.

[Fairy In Boots]

Loathsome has gone but it’s too little too late they’re going to get smashed tomorrow and then it’s really on, I can’t believe the Tories still haven’t knifed May

[SirBalon]

 

[Dr Boris Gobshite]

On 20/05/2019 at 23:22, Dr. Gonzo said:

The number of times I've heard my of uncle insisting that all Brexiteers agree on what Brexit is, while his position on what Brexit means to him has changed since the last time he's explained it absolutely just blows my fucking mind.

At this point though, I think it's too late to properly clarify it and leave Brexiteers satisfied. So many promises were made that are just inconsistent, it's really just impossible for Brexit to live up to all it was claimed to be. Meanwhile, the option of "No Brexit" is extremely unappealing to these people and they've had 2 years (and a much longer time before that of the EU being made a scapegoat for various failures of past British governments) of having the EU vilified and 2 years of these Brexit promises made - that I don't think they'd ever come to terms with the idea of Brexit not happening.

Ultimately, whatever happens, there's going to be a large group of the country that's unhappy with the end result. I don't think the UK's political culture is going to become any more stable, or at very least less polarised, any time soon. Only time will really heal the political divisions in the country, and that can only happen when the UK can move on from Brexit... which will only happen after Brexit has happened and the dust has settled.

 

The thing is it's crystal clear what's on offer,  it's the deal Theresa May negotiated with the EU. That stands regardless of what form of Brexit we choose between now and October. The EU have repeatedly stated that the deal is the deal and it's not going to change aside from a bit of window dressing here and there. For some reason everyone associated with Brexit and leaving seems to live in this fantasy land where their version of Brexit is a possibility.

This even applies to a no-deal Brexit. Whilst we'll initially revert to WTO terms when we eventually get round to trying to negotiate a proper trade deal with the EU, our largest and closest trading partner, the terms of any trade deal are the deal that was agreed with Theresa May. That £39bn will be paid whether we leave through the back door or jump off the cliff because it's a small fraction of the £200bn+ a year the UK makes from EU exports.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Dr Boris Gobshite said:

 

The thing is it's crystal clear what's on offer,  it's the deal Theresa May negotiated with the EU. That stands regardless of what form of Brexit we choose between now and October. The EU have repeatedly stated that the deal is the deal and it's not going to change aside from a bit of window dressing here and there. For some reason everyone associated with Brexit and leaving seems to live in this fantasy land where their version of Brexit is a possibility.

This even applies to a no-deal Brexit. Whilst we'll initially revert to WTO terms when we eventually get round to trying to negotiate a proper trade deal with the EU, our largest and closest trading partner, the terms of any trade deal are the deal that was agreed with Theresa May. That £39bn will be paid whether we leave through the back door or jump off the cliff because it's a small fraction of the £200bn+ a year the UK makes from EU exports.

 

You’re back!

[God is Haaland]

11 hours ago, Dr Boris Gobshite said:

 

The thing is it's crystal clear what's on offer,  it's the deal Theresa May negotiated with the EU. That stands regardless of what form of Brexit we choose between now and October. The EU have repeatedly stated that the deal is the deal and it's not going to change aside from a bit of window dressing here and there. For some reason everyone associated with Brexit and leaving seems to live in this fantasy land where their version of Brexit is a possibility.

This even applies to a no-deal Brexit. Whilst we'll initially revert to WTO terms when we eventually get round to trying to negotiate a proper trade deal with the EU, our largest and closest trading partner, the terms of any trade deal are the deal that was agreed with Theresa May. That £39bn will be paid whether we leave through the back door or jump off the cliff because it's a small fraction of the £200bn+ a year the UK makes from EU exports.

 

Hello and welcome back, mate.

[Inverted]

So the two biggest political groupings in the country right now are viciously pro-austerity Remainers, and No Deal supporters. 

At least we've found one unifying issue for the country: 80% of the country is in agreement that the disabled and mentally ill need to keep being driven to their deaths. 

Encouraging stuff. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Inverted

[MUFC]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/48465791

[SirBalon]

This on the one side;

And then this from one of my idols which broke my heart...

Opined!

Thank goodness for London and what it is, a global flying flag for internationalism. Hadn’t it have been for the foreigners arriving opening businesses, regenerating run down areas and paying their taxes in London, we wouldn’t have the London we have today. I’m a Londoner, I know and remember.

[Stan]

3 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

 

Thank goodness for London and what it is, a global flying flag for internationalism. Hadn’t it have been for the foreigners arriving opening businesses, regenerating run down areas and paying their taxes in London, we wouldn’t have the London we have today. I’m a Londoner, I know and remember.

Amuses me when people say London isn't London any more with the implication being that there's probably too many people of colour there and it's not as white as they want it to be.

But ironically, that is what London is. It's a diverse fucking capital city and we should be immensely proud of it. Not a stick to beat it with. 

Further amuses me how conflicted some people will be if Sajid Javid becomes PM. Will those who hate Sadiq Khan (because of his name, primarily) be fine with a Tory PM with a similar name? 

[Inverted]

Bitter, mentally limited people have been complaining about London being corrupted by foreigners since at least the 12th century. 

It's just funny that even today, people are still choosing to say such nonsense and add themselves to that group. 

Edit: he's even got his facts completely wrong. Edinburgh and Glasgow definitely were more pro-Remain than London.  

The old English bigot probably doesn't consider Glasgow and Edinburgh to count, to be fair to him, but there are for sure some English cities which were more pro-EU. 

Edited June 1, 2019 by Inverted

[SirBalon]

43 minutes ago, Stan said:

Amuses me when people say London isn't London any more with the implication being that there's probably too many people of colour there and it's not as white as they want it to be.

But ironically, that is what London is. It's a diverse fucking capital city and we should be immensely proud of it. Not a stick to beat it with. 

Further amuses me how conflicted some people will be if Sajid Javid becomes PM. Will those who hate Sadiq Khan (because of his name, primarily) be fine with a Tory PM with a similar name? 

 

[SirBalon]

Lammy was answering that idiot. 

[Stan]

5 minutes ago, Cannabis said:

Embarrassing comments from "Lammy" or whatever he wants to call himself. John Cleese is right but it's not what people want to hear.

Is he though?

How many times you been to London recently? 

I'm guessing you think there are 'no-go zones' too  

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 minutes ago, Stan said:

Is he though?

How many times you been to London recently? 

I'm guessing you think there are 'no-go zones' too  

Bit shameful there’s so many people out there who think that English people born in England are not English because of their ancestry.

Bit weird because I suspect many of them quite like Boris Johnson, who’s paternal grandfather is Ali Kemal of Turkey and he himself was born in America.

[Stan]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Bit shameful there’s so many people out there who think that English people born in England are not English because of their ancestry.

Bit weird because I suspect many of them quite like Boris Johnson, who’s paternal grandfather is Ali Kemal of Turkey and he himself was born in America.

Or skin colour.

I don't fully understand what people say though when the say a certain city is 'not English any more'. What should it be, by their standards? 

 

[Stan]

Just now, Cannabis said:

Majority English born.

And by looking at people in the street, how are you meant to know whether people are English-born or not?

Assumption on skin colour?

[Stan]

2 minutes ago, Cannabis said:

It's not a debate I can really be bothered getting into at the moment, it's why I steer clear of the politics threads in general to be honest. 

Countries should support their own population, not allow themselves to be overrun by outsiders. It's one of the main reasons why people voted to leave the EU.

'overrun by outsiders'

As of 2011 Census, this was London's ethnicity stats: