UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Inverted]

The fundamental problem is that our posh people are all either evil, or impossibly thick, and also that they have almost total control on our national flow of information. 

Also just consider - what if there wasn't a video to disprove these claims? Think about how easily they would have got away with this - nobody for a second was stopping to think about the veracity of these claims before they repeated them to their millions of Twitter followers.

Look at how easily respectable "centrist" or "non-partisan" figures spread far-right disinformation. They either want to amplify it, or they lack the nous to realise that they're being repeatedly taken for a ride by compulsive proven liars. 

And so conveniently, they covered up Johnson's horror show today. A potential campaign-killing moment like Brown's "bigoted woman" moment.

British democracy is fucked. I've had enough of this degenerate, rigged system. I'd take 10 years of smirking SNP wanks ruling me over any more of this. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Inverted

[Dr. Gonzo]

Kuenssberg should have resigned when she was caught doctering that Corbyn interview question about whether he'd order police to use lethal force (he said generally, he wouldn't - she then used this to say "Corbyn wouldn't allow for lethal force in the wake of a Paris-style attack), which I'd argue was worse than her just lying. That was found to be in violation of the BBC's impartiality guidelines.

Yet she's still got her job. Still spreading lies.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Tories: CoRbYn Is An AnTi-SeMiTe

Recent Tory PMs:

• BoJo writes a book in 2004 depicting Jews as controlling the media and interfering in elections: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-book-jews-control-media-general-election-a9239346.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&utm_source=reddit.com#Echobox=1575907767
• May unveils statue of noted anti-semetic MP that loved Nazis

 

[Stan]

8 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Tories: CoRbYn Is An AnTi-SeMiTe

Recent Tory PMs:

• BoJo writes a book in 2004 depicting Jews as controlling the media and interfering in elections: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-book-jews-control-media-general-election-a9239346.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&utm_source=reddit.com#Echobox=1575907767
• May unveils statue of noted anti-semetic MP that loved Nazis

 

The other thing that strikes me as odd is Corbyn is constantly hounded to apologise for anti-semitism in his party. That's fair enough.

Is Boris ever hounded to apologise for his racist remarks years ago? I don't recall anything of the kind in this election run.

[LFCMike]

12 minutes ago, Stan said:

The other thing that strikes me as odd is Corbyn is constantly hounded to apologise for anti-semitism in his party. That's fair enough.

Is Boris ever hounded to apologise for his racist remarks years ago? I don't recall anything of the kind in this election run.

In the BBC debate the other night Johnson was just allowed to swerve giving an answer when Corbyn mentioned his previous racist remarks

[RandoEFC+]

There's actually three Conservative MPs standing who are currently under investigation over anti-semitism themselves but I bet you didn't read that on the BBC or in the Telegraph.

If you have Twitter, go and look up anything related to the hospital photo story. There are hundreds of bots online posting the exact same story about how "my sister is a nurse working at Leeds General hospital and this photograph was staged by the mother". Literally word for word the same post by a series of completely unrelated accounts. I don't have the exact wording but once again, welcome to the disinformation age spear-headed by the Conservative party and probably Russia.

There was also furore last night that when the BBC Newsnight woman was speaking to Barry Gardiner from Labour she spent more time criticising Corbyn for "not making the NHS a priority in his campaigning" and justifying it "because he hasn't visited 10 hospitals during the campaign like Johnson has". How she decided this was a more pressing matter than senior Conservatives spreading lies to prominent journalists, and said journalists sharing these lies to millions on social media without checking that it was true first. Laura Kuenssberg is coming in for a lot of criticism and rightly so, with #sackkuenssberg trending on Twitter yet again last night.

Some people actually call the BBC 'typical lefty BBC' sometimes. I imagine these must be the people who think the Sun, Telegraph and Mail are fair and balanced 'central' sources.

If the Conservatives win a majority on Thursday then it's time I start distancing myself from UK politics again, because everything that's worrying me now is only going to get worse over the next 5 years. The Tories and their supporters will continue to hold a disproportionate influence over the flow of information in this country, in fact they will probably try and make it worse and succeed. The majority of the horror stories you hear about the NHS, public services and the increase in hate crimes stemming from Brexit and general white English bitterness and intolerance will come true, and to be honest, a country that votes for austerity for a fourth time, A FOURTH TIME, after seeing the mess this country has been left in over the last decade, is going to get what it deserves for allowing this to happen.

I haven't given up hope that an influx of young voters and some tactical voting can make a difference and prevent the majority on Thursday, but it looks unlikely, and I'm very glad I no longer live in England. I will still be affected by most things over here as we're heavily dependent on the UK, but to a lesser extent than actual UK residents as we have our own government and contingencies over here.

[Stan]

18 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

There's actually three Conservative MPs standing who are currently under investigation over anti-semitism themselves but I bet you didn't read that on the BBC or in the Telegraph.

If you have Twitter, go and look up anything related to the hospital photo story. There are hundreds of bots online posting the exact same story about how "my sister is a nurse working at Leeds General hospital and this photograph was staged by the mother". Literally word for word the same post by a series of completely unrelated accounts. I don't have the exact wording but once again, welcome to the disinformation age spear-headed by the Conservative party and probably Russia.

Yeah I saw that surface as well this morning. All across Facebook too and spread by figures who have huge audiences (Kevin Pietersen for one). Spreads like wildfire and once it reaches enough people it's unstoppable. 

[Pyfish+]

I'm loving all of the targeted social media ads I'm getting from the Tories. Most of my friends are Labour supporters so it's funny to see the Tory ads in between all of the Labour posts. 

'Hide > Hide All Ads From Conservatives' 

[RandoEFC+]

Also BBC hosted an Under 30s special of Question Time last night. You'd have to assume the point of this was for Under 30s to have their views represented on national television. Under 30s voted 73% to Remain in the referendum, but the BBC decided it would be more 'representative' to ensure that the crowd reflected the result of the referendum instead so just over half of the audience were Leave voters.

What a great shame, as having an Under 30 Question Time was an opportunity for older viewers to hear about the under-represented views of younger people (my age group, incidentally) and to be exposed to the thoughts of the people who overwhelmingly want to stay in the European Union, and will also have to deal with the consequences to their lives and careers of Brexit and the next government more than anyone else. Those who have established careers, have already financially supported their offspring through the early stages of their lives and are probably home owners will probably be able to survive the economic shocks caused by Brexit without too many problems (until they need the health service anyway). Those of us still earning less than £30,000, renting or even living with parents with very little prospect for many of us to even think about being home-owners in the near future (thankfully I'm probably not quite in this boat but I'm in the minority), could probably do without the economic shocks and increased cost of living that pretty much every forecast of Brexit predicts.

You like to think that a Question Time for Under 30s only would reflect some of the issues facing Under 30s and older viewers could get a greater insight into what their vote is inflicting upon their kids and grandkids. Instead you get just another Question Time but with Under 30s asking the same questions as the usual audience, with the same reactions, to create the illusion that this demographic is being fairly represented.

[Pyfish+]

[Guest]

@Fairy In Boots Norway has no national debt.  I don't think they are cutting back on socialist policies. You say socialism isn't sustainable but yet Norway and other Scandinavian countries have used these policies for a long time and been very successful with them. They are not actually socialist countries they just have elements are socialism. They have free markets. However I don't have enough knowledge to really have any kind of debate on the subject.  Out of interest how anti socialism are you? Would you scrap the NHS? How far would you go?

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Guest

[6666]

Independent fact checking group, The Coalition For Reform In Political Advertising, found that 88% of Torie ads were incorrect.

Not surprised by it and I don't think this revelation will have much of an affect. If you're voting Tory you're probably on board with the bullshit as it might help grab a win.

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by 6666

[Stan]

35 minutes ago, 6666 said:

Independent fact checking group, The Coalition For Reform In Political Advertising, found that 88% of Torie ads were incorrect.

Not surprised by it and I don't think this revelation will have much of an affect. If you're voting Tory you're probably on board with the bullshit as it might help grab a win.

 

Important to note 0% of Labour's ads were incorrect as well...

[Fairy In Boots]

4 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Fairy In Boots Norway has no national debt.  I don't think they are cutting back on socialist policies. You say socialism isn't sustainable but yet Norway and other Scandinavian countries have used these policies for a long time and been very successful with them. They are not actually socialist countries they just have elements are socialism. They have free markets. However I don't have enough knowledge to really have any kind of debate on the subject.  Out of interest how anti socialism are you? Would you scrap the NHS? How far would you go?

 

They’re capitalist countries, it’s not a like for like comparison anyway but they have successful social welfare policies.  There’s like 5 million people in a resource rich country that are spread over a large area so they have a much healthier and richer healthier social lifestyle anyway. 

We on the other hand have 64m people with significant portions packed into over crowded metropolitan shitholes and our society is based around binge drinking or eating or watching fucking tell so our health is atrocious. 

The can afford social welfare because they actively engage in their own, we can’t afford similar programs because as a society we wait for the state to wipe our arse for us. 

I’ve seen a lot about “facts” and truths in this thread, the simple fact is all political parties talk shite and say what they like to gain favour or votes. I’ve tuned out now really and vote on core principles, they’re the only constant in Politics. 

Its simple; 

conservatism = less tax so more basic state functions and you keep more money to do as you see fit. The equivalent of a self catering holiday. 

My kind of deal, I’ll spend my money on what I want because it’s my money, I have private health I’d happily opt out the NHS, my premiums are low as aside from the one day a month when I do my monthly alcohol allowance in a 3-4 hour period I’m healthy I don’t smoke, eat right and go the gym. 

labour = more tax so more state functions and less money to do as you see fit. The equivalent of an all inclusive holiday. 

Not my deal (although I do go all inclusive for the kids when we go) because basically like any all inclusive it gets stagnant. Plus state run enterprises are so inefficient we’re massively overpaying for a totally shite service. 

Politics is fucked in this country anyway I live in a solid labour seat and they blindly vote for the useless bastards every election and they’re lot marginally gets shitter and shitter. The reasons locally why they vote labour are mainly “thatcher” “bankers” “posh” it’s Idiotic in the extreme. The problem is these mongols breed and they’re kids grow up just as tribal and as a result you get a new generation of mindless labour voters and because of that Labour will never actually get their act together and will always just get the heartland votes. 

Look at this thread wall to wall Labour, Corbyn is a shit storm of idiocy yet all these saying they’re going to vote labour . The very definition of mindless tribal politics. 

I was speaking to a Geordie mate earlier who said he’d vote Boris, I laughed and he said “fuck my da was a miner, he’ll be spinning in his grave. But they (labour voters) just don’t see they’ve (labour) not got a grasp of how economics work the daft cunts”. 

1 hour ago, 6666 said:

Independent fact checking group, The Coalition For Reform In Political Advertising, found that 88% of Torie ads were incorrect.

Not surprised by it and I don't think this revelation will have much of an affect. If you're voting Tory you're probably on board with the bullshit as it might help grab a win.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Stan said:

Important to note 0% of Labour's ads were incorrect as well...

Both wrong, ironic you post about incorrect info by twisting this to suit your leanings. 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/technology-50726500

that says 88% of the most widely spread ads are incorrect where they’ve leapt to get to the £2400 figure that’s not 88% of all ads are wrong. Also shows Lib Dem’s and Labour aren’t innocent either. 

Also that kid in Leeds Hospital was a hoax from a labour supporter mother. It’s also worth noting that if labour hadn’t spunked all of our money up the wall in 2010 with there inept fiscal policy (something that happens every time) and flogged off our gold to fund illegal wars in the Middle East  and privatised large parts of the NHS then maybe then there might be some money for hospital beds. 

Anyway like all electrons I call it based on the mood of the cross sections of society I speak to and I’m confident of a Tory majority here. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Fairy In Boots

[Stan]

1 minute ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Also that kid in Leeds Hospital was a hoax from a labour supporter mother

The medical director at the Hospital has literally said the case is true  in that there were no beds available for the poor kid. Did you fall for the bots and the conspiracy too?

It's not a hoax ffs.

[Spike]

As someone that knows little of British politics, its current standing, histroy, and future; I will suggest voting for Corbyn. Thank you, my British allies and friends.

[Spike]

I was reading an article the other day; quite amusing really as it was showing the immigration statistics of the UK. I've come to know that the Conservative Party or Brexit Party (whatever hill those fools die on) are pushing a narrative of 'harsher, stricter, fairer (on the British!) immigration laws. They use this narrative that they've cut immigration in half*. And the * of course in this instance, only means they've cut down on European immigration and that immigration in total has actually risen.

I have always found it odd that the typically defined conservative parties (The Tories for the Brits, The Liberals for us Aussies) have always been hardliners on immigration; 'less immigration!', 'more jobs for natives!', but on closer inspection they've always been the types to circumvent those sort of labour laws that protect the workers and allow the importation of cheap labour from less 'lucky' countries. Temporary Visas that usually lead to permanent residency, allowing the news channels to manipulate the statistics of immigration.

[Guest]

On 09/12/2019 at 10:29, RandoEFC said:

We can only dream of a progressive alliance like this in the UK. I've seen or heard a lot of people suggesting that they'd vote for a hung parliament if there was an option. We would be so much better off with proportional representation instead of first past the post. It would require a huge overhaul logistically but can you imagine a parliament where Johnson, Corbyn, Swinson and the better-represented minor parties were forced to find compromise and implement policies and laws that are agreed upon by the majority of MPs and therefore always voted for by more than half of the electorate? It's almost unthinkable as the government vs opposition format is so entrenched in our politics, but it would be nice to think that the non-parliamentary majority MPs could actually play some role in the House of Commons beyond voting against anything the government tries to do because they're the opposition.

I was trying to explain to my auntie once that hung parliaments do work in some countries. She's a very educated person but quite closed minded and can't understand new ideas. I can see how a hung parliament could work well if parties agree on most issues or if people listen to eachother. It just seems to me that some people don't listen what other people say. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Guest

[LFCMike]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

The medical director at the Hospital has literally said the case is true  in that there were no beds available for the poor kid. Did you fall for the bots and the conspiracy too?

It's not a hoax ffs.

Haha, as if the one who is always all high and mighty is telling us he believes that

[Stan]

Just now, LFCMike said:

Haha, as if the one who is always all high and mighty is telling us he believes that

yeah it doesn't fit the script so obviously it's untrue  

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

My kind of deal, I’ll spend my money on what I want because it’s my money, I have private health I’d happily opt out the NHS, my premiums are low as aside from the one day a month when I do my monthly alcohol allowance in a 3-4 hour period I’m healthy I don’t smoke, eat right and go the gym. 

Congrats on the clean bill of health, but what about the fact the NHS negotiates drug prices for the UK - whereas in the US it's insurance companies negotiating those drug prices. And the result is... health care ends up being significantly cheaper overall in the UK (and in all countries that have public healthcare services, when compared to the US). Did you know that in the US, ambulances cost money for the person who needs an ambulance? To the point where people will turn down ambulances because they don't want to drop 5 grand.

Also look at the biggest cause of bankruptcy in the United States. 2/3 of US bankruptcies are due to medical bills. It's a fucked situation where people sometimes just turn down their treatment because it's just less of a hassle to die and have money to pass on to your family than it is to get treatment.

Getting rid of NHS is tacitly telling the working class: 1.) be healthy at all times, 2.) if you aren't healthy, be prepared to go broke, 3.) if you aren't prepared to go broke, prepare to die. 1 is unreasonable, 2 is also unreasonable and morally questionable, 3 is unreasonable and morally abhorrent. 

And if we follow the US model further, we're talking about a pretty large expense that businesses will be taking on. Benefits packages are how businesses attract good workers - getting rid of NHS means one of the most highly sought after benefits will be healthcare coverage. What that generally means in the US is your employer subsidises your health insurance. Businesses that can afford it will have to expend a significant amount of money that could go towards: hiring more workers, R&D, marketing, you know... shit that makes businesses money and drives the economy. That's why even a Koch-brothers backed US conservative think tank actually found that the Bernie Sanders' plan for something similar to NHS - https://theintercept.com/2018/07/30/medicare-for-all-cost-health-care-wages/

It also means that part of your wages are deducted to cover the remaining portion of the insurance. Personally, I fucking hate this. I'm paid pretty well and I hate seeing my money go twice a week to something that I'm most likely not going to be using more than once a year (yearly checkup)… unless something bad happens to me - which so far has happened twice with a drink driver hitting me while I was on a motorcycle and when I severed my tendon. And I'm thankful I had health insurance because of those two incidents otherwise I'd probably be in any condition to even be sat here at my desk typing on a keyboard... but I think I'd have been more thankful if the US a public option which meant an overall cheaper experience through those medical nightmares & higher wages for me twice a month (because if you read what that Koch think tank found, it found greater savings for businesses, indicating workers would have higher wages on average).

We get rid of NHS and we're going to have the same problems the US has with it's healthcare industry. But in a country where overall the wages are lower and the cost of living is higher - and these issues are probably why people, regardless of partisan affiliation are feeling fed up with the overall system. Because at the end of the day, the primary benefit the NHS confers on all UK citizens (regardless of whether if they use private health or not) is the significantly lower drug prices than you'd find in the US. And you'd be asking British businesses to either clog up resources (which isn't very "business friendly Conservative" of you) or to not give a toss about the health of their workers (which is advocating for shite business sense).

The most compelling argument for the UK being rid of the NHS is that you've got shares in American pharmaceutical giants and you want to make a killing, in that regard. Otherwise, it just seems to be a way to make more problems in the UK and it'll negatively impact those that are already feeling most left behind and betrayed by the government.

[Fairy In Boots]

3 hours ago, Stan said:

The medical director at the Hospital has literally said the case is true  in that there were no beds available for the poor kid. Did you fall for the bots and the conspiracy too?

It's not a hoax ffs.

Ok hoax is the wrong word, but it’s been played up. Have you ever took a kid to hospital? 

You sit in a seating area for hours while a bed becomes available, this kid was initially dealt with deemed low enough risk to remove from his bed and await a new bed while his bed was given to another patient. 

This kid who doesn’t have pneumonia was waiting for a second bed. Mommy who’s a corbyn loving knobhead Riggs up a makeshift bed takes photos and sends them to the media. It’s election time so suddenly an everyday occurrence in the NHS is dynamite. Now the Mirror go to town on it.

Because the mirror would tell you “jimmy has been misjudged”if Jimmy Saville was the labour leader they’re that far up the labour parties arse. 

Also what is it “the NHS is the envy of the world” or “a shithole” 

I remember pre Blair NHS mate I know who did the fucking damage it was new labour

2 hours ago, Spike said:

As someone that knows little of British politics, its current standing, histroy, and future; I will suggest voting for Corbyn. Thank you, my British allies and friends.

No you wouldn’t, absolute clusterfuck of incompetence. 

For example one plan is a 4 day working week with their chancellor insisting it does effect the NHS and their Health minister telling them it will cost the NHS Billions . 

And as you can see about the electorate is swayed by emotive shite like some kid having to wait for hours like every fucking kid ever in the NHS

The reality is that MPs are actually really shit jobs now with poor salary for London so unfortunately you’ve got morons infesting the spectrum. 

[Fairy In Boots]

17 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Congrats on the clean bill of health, but what about the fact the NHS negotiates drug prices for the UK - whereas in the US it's insurance companies negotiating those drug prices. And the result is... health care ends up being significantly cheaper overall in the UK (and in all countries that have public healthcare services, when compared to the US). Did you know that in the US, ambulances cost money for the person who needs an ambulance? To the point where people will turn down ambulances because they don't want to drop 5 grand.

Also look at the biggest cause of bankruptcy in the United States. 2/3 of US bankruptcies are due to medical bills. It's a fucked situation where people sometimes just turn down their treatment because it's just less of a hassle to die and have money to pass on to your family than it is to get treatment.

Getting rid of NHS is tacitly telling the working class: 1.) be healthy at all times, 2.) if you aren't healthy, be prepared to go broke, 3.) if you aren't prepared to go broke, prepare to die. 1 is unreasonable, 2 is also unreasonable and morally questionable, 3 is unreasonable and morally abhorrent. 

And if we follow the US model further, we're talking about a pretty large expense that businesses will be taking on. Benefits packages are how businesses attract good workers - getting rid of NHS means one of the most highly sought after benefits will be healthcare coverage. What that generally means in the US is your employer subsidises your health insurance. Businesses that can afford it will have to expend a significant amount of money that could go towards: hiring more workers, R&D, marketing, you know... shit that makes businesses money and drives the economy. That's why even a Koch-brothers backed US conservative think tank actually found that the Bernie Sanders' plan for something similar to NHS - https://theintercept.com/2018/07/30/medicare-for-all-cost-health-care-wages/

It also means that part of your wages are deducted to cover the remaining portion of the insurance. Personally, I fucking hate this. I'm paid pretty well and I hate seeing my money go twice a week to something that I'm most likely not going to be using more than once a year (yearly checkup)… unless something bad happens to me - which so far has happened twice with a drink driver hitting me while I was on a motorcycle and when I severed my tendon. And I'm thankful I had health insurance because of those two incidents otherwise I'd probably be in any condition to even be sat here at my desk typing on a keyboard... but I think I'd have been more thankful if the US a public option which meant an overall cheaper experience through those medical nightmares & higher wages for me twice a month (because if you read what that Koch think tank found, it found greater savings for businesses, indicating workers would have higher wages on average).

We get rid of NHS and we're going to have the same problems the US has with it's healthcare industry. But in a country where overall the wages are lower and the cost of living is higher - and these issues are probably why people, regardless of partisan affiliation are feeling fed up with the overall system. Because at the end of the day, the primary benefit the NHS confers on all UK citizens (regardless of whether if they use private health or not) is the significantly lower drug prices than you'd find in the US. And you'd be asking British businesses to either clog up resources (which isn't very "business friendly Conservative" of you) or to not give a toss about the health of their workers (which is advocating for shite business sense).

The most compelling argument for the UK being rid of the NHS is that you've got shares in American pharmaceutical giants and you want to make a killing, in that regard. Otherwise, it just seems to be a way to make more problems in the UK and it'll negatively impact those that are already feeling most left behind and betrayed by the government.

I’ve not read this it’s late it’s a big post. On drug prices 

drugs initially cost money they’re expensive they’re produced on license for a fixed period then after that period they can be produced elsewhere as the forumula is made available by the regulators to whomever wants it so the price comes down due to increased supply. 

So sanofi for example will get a drug spend millions and 5-10 years getting it corrrevt rested, approved via clinical trials etc etc. The regulator ratifies it and they get a 5 year license. At which point Sanofi sell high because they have the monopoly on the market and they need to recoup the initial investment and turn a 5 year profit that satisfies investors so it will be within the ballpark of 50% 

at this point they know this is a finite bubble so they start on the next cycle. This is the cycle of pharmaceuticals. 

This idea that the NHS can dictate price does make me laugh, sure bulk buying may get a better discount but the regulator and market competitors do more globally. The NHS cater for a domestic market. 

Paracetamol used to cost tens of dollars a tab and now you get 20 tablets in the U.K. for under a £1 for example. 

I know this because I know a very senior guy at sanofi and I know a company that makes the machines for replicating pharma process for” pirating” (their term) these drugs once the license runs out. 70% is paperwork and litigation In pharma, that’s what impacts costs. 

Also why does a private health system automatically get compared to America? Why not like Belgium where it’s compuldory health insurance? 

I agree at free at the point of use car for u18 and life threatening injuries such as A&E but too many fatties taking the piss out of an over burdened system is really the problem. 

Also I have private health with work not a big fuss at all

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Also why does a private health system automatically get compared to America? Why not like Belgium where it’s compuldory health insurance? 

Because it's the US government demanding we put NHS on the table for post-Brexit trade talks?

Belgium's compulsory health insurance reimburses for "general care" out of a public fund btw.

[Spike]

It is compulsory in USA to have health insurance. 

31 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

 

No you wouldn’t, absolute clusterfuck of incompetence. 

 

As opposed to whom? Surely not their Tories and their magical pot of money for health, education, and defence? Here I was thinking that the UK is in it’s worst financial state in a long time.